Shard Shipping & Selish Religion

[Windrunner]

I thought about that as I was posting, but I solidly refuse to believe that spren aren't splinters. Everything I've seen points to it. At this point, for me it's a logical assumption to make. And really, we have so little data that we have almost nothing to discuss if we don't make some assumptions. Any anyway, I'm sure that 90% of our theorizing will go out the window at one point or another

[NewbSombrero]

I thought about that as I was posting, but I solidly refuse to believe that spren aren't splinters. Everything I've seen points to it. At this point, for me it's a logical assumption to make. And really, we have so little data that we have almost nothing to discuss if we don't make some assumptions. Any anyway, I'm sure that 90% of our theorizing will go out the window at one point or another

 

This is true. I just think it's important to stay aware of what we actually know and where we're making assumptions. And I personally am just not quite so sure about spren. Our confirmed Spliners right now are both somehow held by sentient being and able to be expended, at the cost of the holder's life, for some large magical effect. In addition, we know for sure that at least the Divine Breath is spiritual in nature (if I am accurately extrapolating from what we know about normal Breaths), which would lead me to extrapolate that the Seon Aons are as well. That and the fact that Brandon has stated that the connection with a Seon is Spiritual. To me, this points more towards shardblades than spren. Bear with me for a moment, because the connection is not obvious, and a couple  important parts of it just occurred to me now, and I'm probably going to give this its own thread so that this one can move back to its original discussion if it continues on much farther.

 

Now, what do we know about shardblades? 1)They have "shard" in the name. It's not much, but I'm going with it. 2) They are stored in the Spiritual Realm when not in use. This ties in the Spiritual component I'm assuming right now. 3) Like Seons, no one knows how they were made. 4) So far as we know, there certainly seem to be a whole lot fewer than there used to be, which may suggest to me that at some point, maybe a lot of the KR gave up both their lives and their shardblades in order to protect Roshar. It could very well be that this is the Recreance, and the general populace misinterpreted it as a betrayal. Oh yeah, and just for the sake of completeness, 5) we certainly haven't seen any non-sentient being wielding shards. This particular item does differentiate the shardblades from our other Splinters in that they are transferable, but now that I think about it, in theory, a Returned could probably give someone their Divine Breath. The shardblades would still be the only Splinters we know of that stick around after whatever holds them dies, but I think I've got some fair explanation there as well. Seons don't seem to be mortal, so I think really the only way for them to die may very well be to complete their Aons. As for the Divine Breath, Endowment is still alive and kicking as far as we know, so the power of the Splinter probably just returns to him/her when its host dies. Thoughts?

[Phantom Monstrosity]

I thought about that as I was posting, but I solidly refuse to believe that spren aren't splinters. Everything I've seen points to it. At this point, for me it's a logical assumption to make. And really, we have so little data that we have almost nothing to discuss if we don't make some assumptions. Any anyway, I'm sure that 90% of our theorizing will go out the window at one point or another

Thing is, we know that spren were around before Honor was splintered.

 

I don't think it really makes sense for Cultivation to have been splintered for so long for spren to be established before Honor bought the farm - especially since he seems to refer to her as if she's still around in his recorded message.

 

But Seons can expend the Aons in their core and die

I thought that was from a discarded draft, and eventually got put into warbreaker?

 

[Windrunner]

I did too. Brandon referenced them currently being able to "actualize" their Aon in his Q&A here, so I assume it was just cut from the climax of the book, not the world or the nature of the Seons.

[NewbSombrero]

Yeah. With him still referencing it in Q&As, I'm running on the assumption that it is still a thing they can do, just not something that appears in the text actually happening.

[Millennium]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we actually seen a Skaze at this point?

[NewbSombrero]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but have we actually seen a Skaze at this point?

 

Nope. They have only been mentioned.

[Meg]

I did too. Brandon referenced them currently being able to "actualize" their Aon in his Q&A here, so I assume it was just cut from the climax of the book, not the world or the nature of the Seons.

 

 

Yeah. With him still referencing it in Q&As, I'm running on the assumption that it is still a thing they can do, just not something that appears in the text actually happening.

I might have missed something essential but I apologize for not being with the both of you about this ability of the Seons. Because about this point there is another thread I dare to only give a link.

[Senor Feesh]

Thing is, we know that spren were around before Honor was splintered.

 

I don't think it really makes sense for Cultivation to have been splintered for so long for spren to be established before Honor bought the farm - especially since he seems to refer to her as if she's still around in his recorded message.

 

 

Being forcibly Splintered isn't the ONLY way to create a Splinter though - remember that Endowment is still whole, but Divine Breaths are Splinters. Therefore, there could be Splinters of Cultivation (Spren or some other as yet unidentified form) without Cultivation having been destroyed.

 

That said I'm still not 100% on Spren = Splinter. They could be, and there's good evidence to suggest it, but just as Seon ≠ Splinter (rather it CONTAINS one) I wonder if perhaps Spren are CONNECTED to a Splinter in a similar way.

[Yados]

It could be that all the Spren-Spren we see (Syl included) are HonorSpren and the weird Symbolheads Shallan sees are CultivationSpren. 

 

Maybe before Honor was shattered, Spren were more like the Symbolheads, and could still form bonds, but it's only now that they're just mindlessly attracted to things until the bond forms. 

 

Sort of like the broken Seons in Elantris. 

[Observer]

Did anybody else read this as "Selfish Religions"?

 

If Seons have Aons, we can assume Skaze have Fjordell characters. Where's the ChayShan version of them?

Edited April 1, 2013 by Observer

[ninch]

I thought Skaze were just evil Seons and the one Hrathen kept in the box was a Skaze.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691 number 30

edited for bad link

Edited April 2, 2013 by ninch

[Vortaan]

I strongly doubt that having a Seon means that you have the potential to be taken by the Shaod. I see it as more of a bond; you don't have to be on the path to being a Radiant to have a Shardblade so why would you need the potential to be taken by the Shaod to have a Seon?

 

We actually have proof positive of this in that Hrathen can have a Seon, but no Fjordell without some Aonic blood is ever taken by the Shaod. There is definitely a genetic angle to AonDor, much like with Allomancy. 

 

On topic, a Shardic romance could have been the element that weakened both Shards enough for them to be Splintered at all. I can't imagine Devotion and Dominion play together much better than Ruin and Preservation did, so perhaps a closeness on the parts of the Shardholders caused a residual weakness in both Shards.

[happyman]

I thought Skaze were just evil Seons and the one Hrathen kept in the box was a Skaze.

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691 number 30

edited for bad link

 

I've always considered it more likely that Skaze just couldn't be used for the same things as Seons could.  Either they didn't want to, or it wasn't possible.  Both work for me.

[NewbSombrero]

I've always considered it more likely that Skaze just couldn't be used for the same things as Seons could.  Either they didn't want to, or it wasn't possible.  Both work for me.

 

Yeah. Some of the things Brandon has said definitely make it seem like the Skaze are far more in charge of things than they are servants/helpers.

[Windrunner]

I've always considered it more likely that Skaze just couldn't be used for the same things as Seons could.  Either they didn't want to, or it wasn't possible.  Both work for me.

I strongly agree with this. It makes sense if you think of intents in general. It makes a lot of sense if you look at intents. Seons pretty clearly display a ton of Devotion to the person they are bonded with.

 

"Why? Don't you want to be free?"

"I want to serve. young master," Ien explained, pulsing reassuringly. "My freedom is to be here, with you."

"I don't understand."

"You look at things as a human, young master," Ten said with his wise, indulgent voice. "You see rank and distinction; you try to order the world so that everything has a place either above you or beneath you. To a Seon, there is no above or beneath. there are only those we love. And we serve those we love."

"But you don't even get paid!" had been Raoden's indignant response.

"But I do, young master. My payment is that of a father's pride and a mother's love. My wages come from the satisfaction of seeing you grow."

 

So to me, logically since Seons' Devotion is directed at their masters, Skaze have Dominion over those they're bound to. Maybe they can both send messages. But Skaze are of Dominion, they aren't going to be content to be used as telephones.

[Observer]

How exactly would a little ball of light Dominate you? Maybe the Skaze have some abilities we haven't seen yet? Fjon mentioned something about them after stabbing Hrathen.

[happyman]

Yeah. Some of the things Brandon has said definitely make it seem like the Skaze are far more in charge of things than they are servants/helpers.

 

Which would make sense as shards of Dominion.  They probably keep part of their parent shard's intent.

After all, Aons seem to embody selfless devotion to their master, including precisely carrying their words across long distances.  They obey and bond out of love.

I dount Skaze have the same behavior.  They probably tend towards being in control.  It just all fits together with what we know.  I doubt any of them could subordinate themselves to somebody else long enough to carry their exact words like a magical telephone system.

 

Edit:  After posting, I see Windrunner had essentially the same ideas I did.  Yeah, that quote makes it seem pretty likely, huh?

Edited April 3, 2013 by happyman