Advanced Surgebinding

[LabRat]

This grew out of a minor derailment in another topic.

What might some advanced uses of Surgebinding be?

Here's a few I've come up with. Some I see obvious problems with, but they're cool so they're included, others I think we might actually see in a future book.

Inverted Reverse Lashing: instead of Gravitationally Attracting objects, it would Gravitationally Repel things. I suspect that doing this with large amounts of Stormlight would cause the Target to rip itself apart.

Full Basic Lashing and Full Reverse Lashing: combining Adhesion and Gravitation, both Lashings would be applied to a single something (like a rock), which would then be thrown at an opponent and stick to them.

SHARDBINDING: We've seen that Shallan can use Pattern to hold a Lightweaving together, so what about using a Shardblade to transfer a Surgebinding Effect into an opponent? For example, could Lift use Wyndle to Slick an opponents Plate or Blade? At the least, I suspect this would work on those Fabrial half-Shards.

[Arook]

Inverted Reverse Lashing: This would be really cool.

 

Full Basic Lashing and Full Reverse Lashing: Not sure this is possible but could be really funny. Just lash a blanket at someone and then it ties them up while the full reverse lashing makes any attempt to remove it impossible.

 

SHARDBINDING: Umm not sure what your saying but Shard blades and plate are very hard to affect with investiture, half shards would be hard to. How ever using wyndle to slick a normal opponent would be very funny if possible. 

[LabRat]

Shardbinding = using the Shardblade to deliver an ability that normally requires direct physical contact.

My thinking is that it won't take Shardbearers long to figure out that letting Kaladin or Lift touch them is a bad idea, but avoiding blocking a Shardblade strike is a lot harder. If Lift could somehow Slick the opponents Shardblade handle, easy disarmament.

[Dhavaer]

I recall it being mentioned that absorbing stormlight out of shardplate was possible but very difficult.

[LabRat]

(Badly) cracked plate only.

But now I'm wondering if it would be possible to force to much Stormlight into an undamaged Plate, causing it to explode.

[Sasori]

Inverted Reverse Lashing: instead of Gravitationally Attracting objects, it would Gravitationally Repel things. I suspect that doing this with large amounts of Stormlight would cause the Target to rip itself apart.

 

I've thought about this, no need to repel send only opponent's head up several times, would break his neck. And if you stick their feet on the ground ... or send body parts in opposite directions...

I doubt that we will see something like this, because it would be a little gore, but with "gravity" could be made very aggressive things, organs collapse, smash people... Yep I hope I explained well

 

Full Basic Lashing and Full Reverse Lashing: combining Adhesion and Gravitation, both Lashings would be applied to a single something (like a rock), which would then be thrown at an opponent and stick to them.

 

This sounds very interesting, something like turn an enemy into a "black hole" to attract all nearby things and leave them unable to move?

[DreamEternal]

How about going back to simplier things, like pure Adhesion? Perhaps it could be used to lower air resistence, hold a crumbling object together, or to explode things in an inverse full lashing of expanding air.

[LabRat]

I've thought about this, no need to repel send only opponent's head up several times, would break his neck. And if you stick their feet on the ground ... or send body parts in opposite directions...

I doubt that we will see something like this, because it would be a little gore, but with "gravity" could be made very aggressive things, organs collapse, smash people... Yep I hope I explained well

I was thinking more as a defensive bubble against arrows/catapult stones. Using it directly on a lifeform seems a little bit against (at least) the First Ideal.

[Odium's_Shard]

Essentially looking through some of these points, while many of them are really cool I feel like they belong definitively under different Surges. Not to burst the bubble since this was kind of my idea  and I want them to be true but here goes:

 

Inverse Full Lashing of Expanding Air, or similar points about using Adhesion in the opposite direction to blow things up, I believe that Division will probably cover cool effect like this (think the intro to WoK, the Dustbringers).

 

Reverse Gravitation... I really want to believe this but from a physics standpoint, which from Brandon's works tend to be maintained, gravitation is purely inwards force wise. I.e., you could change their Lashing to send them somewhere far away, but you could never make it so that a particular object sends all other objects away from it (i.e. Inverse Reverse Lashing). It may be possible (though unlikely) to create a Reverse Lashing point far away drawing object away from you, but it seems Lashings require touch (or an extended Shardblade) to pass their effect.

 

As for the part about ripping a head off with a Lashing to the head up and a Lashing to the body down, I don't believe this is possible (sadly)  because the body is viewed as a single 'entity' Cognitively (it sees itself as one being, not head and body separate) so Stormlight and a Lashing would be passed to the entire thing. Rock down and body up though might work  .

 

I also think in this thread we should discuss what the possible 'Basic Lashings' of the other Orders other than Windrunners are, and whether advanced techniques could be used by these Orders... I'd like to do Order cross-combinations, like simultaneous Adhesion and Divison or Tension and Gravitation to snap someone in half, but I think that's a topic for another day thread

 

My personal 'Advanced Lashing' would have to be creating a Reverse Lashing point on someone while simultaneously projecting them away from you upwards into the incoming volleys of arrows... pincushion o'clock. This is more of a 'combo move' however  ...

 

Along the lines of a Shardblade (as an extension of your Investiture) being able to create Lashing points or effects... this seems completely possible. Hence anyone with the Division Surge with be particularly deadly in battle, since even if they miss (and assuming they can protect themselves) they can cause an explosion of rock wherever their Shardblade does connect.

 

EDIT: Didn't want to double post but I just thought of something... couldn't everyone with Gravitation function like a Coinshot? They could project any object metal or not in a specific direction if they were good enough with their powers to say, shoot someone through with a pebble? At a sufficient distance, the gravity would have accelerated it to the speed of a bullet... so potentially even more penetrative than a Coinshot's penny?

Edited May 29, 2015 by Odium's_Shard

[LabRat]

RE Gravitation Coinshot: the major limiting factor is going to be the coin itself. When you Push on a coin, the coin is accelerated by the force of YOUR mass shoving on it (think of it as a 200lbs coin, though I admit that's not quite accurate), but under Gravitation the coins acceleration is limited (0.7G? So that's what, 22.4f/s/s?) and has a maximum impact force based on its tiny mass.

Even a quad-Lashing is going to be very low power unless the coin travels a LONG way.

[Odium's_Shard]

Even after travelling only 5 metres, assuming no air resistance, it would under 0.7G be travelling at 9.8*5*0.7 = 34.3m/s... so lets say you're using it to hit someone on the other side of a long hall, 20m away, that's 137.2m/s... about a third of the speed of a bullet/sound.

 

Obviously, accounting for resistance and all that it's less, but the point of using a small object is that you don't want it to have much 'impact' force, you're not trying to break their bones... what I was going for (and the same as Coinshots in Mistborn) is the pentrative pressure of a small object travelling at high speed.

 

In Mistborn if they were relying on 'impact' to kill, the penny would hit the person and they would be thrown backwards by the weight of the push... but the penny goes through them. All you need is enough distance and a strong enough Lashing and so damnation good accuracy to shoot them through...? Maybe a penny isn't best for penetration, but a javelin  , sharpened tree branch or other?

[Vaidd]

If you're accelerating a small object though air using only gravity, the object will reach terminal velocity reasonably quickly.  At that point, the "downward" (whatever "down" is for the object at that point) force of the Lashing will balance out the force of friction/drag holding the coin back.

 

By way of reference, in the real world there is a widely-told myth that a penny dropped from the Empire State Building will kill the unfortunate pedestrian it lands on.  According to testing done by the Mythbusters, the impact would probably sting quite a bit, but it it wouldn't be enough to crack your skull, let alone kill you.  At one point, one of them let himself be hit in the hand by a coin that had been artificially accelerated to terminal velocity (65 MPH), and it didn't even break his skin.

 

Of course, all this assumes a single Basic Lashing.  Stack up a whole bunch of Lashings, and terminal velocity will be considerably higher.

 

But this thread is about thinking outside the box, so consider this:  Could you get a friendly Edgedancer or Dustbringer to make the coin "Slick?"  Would it even have a terminal velocity then?

[LabRat]

But this thread is about thinking outside the box, so consider this:  Could you get a friendly Edgedancer or Dustbringer to make the coin "Slick?"  Would it even have a terminal velocity then?

 

Or just give an Edgedancer Szeth's Honorblade.

 

As for the coin, I think it would still have a terminal velocity, but it's going to be a LOT higher. The only effect the air is going to have on the coin are the molecules that the leading edge directly impacts, while drag is going to be basically 0.

 

Reverse Gravitation... I really want to believe this but from a physics standpoint, which from Brandon's works tend to be maintained, gravitation is purely inwards force wise. I.e., you could change their Lashing to send them somewhere far away, but you could never make it so that a particular object sends all other objects away from it (i.e. Inverse Reverse Lashing). It may be possible (though unlikely) to create a Reverse Lashing point far away drawing object away from you, but it seems Lashings require touch (or an extended Shardblade) to pass their effect.

 

As for the part about ripping a head off with a Lashing to the head up and a Lashing to the body down, I don't believe this is possible (sadly)  because the body is viewed as a single 'entity' Cognitively (it sees itself as one being, not head and body separate) so Stormlight and a Lashing would be passed to the entire thing. Rock down and body up though might work  .

 

Like I said, some I see obvious problems with some of them, Reverse Gravitation in particular, but...

(I really hope that comes out readable... it says "Err on the side of awesome")

 

As for ripping people apart with gravity... Lash them to the ground, multi-Lash their steel breastplate upwards. They won't explode, but they will lose arms.

[Arondell]

Some time back I wondered if it would be possible to stick a reverse lashing to the knights bonded spren.  Since it has been demonstrated that a Lightweaver can have their illusions attached to and maintained by their spren it seems like a reasonable speculation.  It wouldn't work quite like a forcefield but having your spren flying around with a reverse lashing would really screw up the aim of any ranged weapons in the area.

 

Also there have been some hints of a sensory component to Atmospheric Pressure surge.  Kaladin being able to sense an impending high storm is an example of this.  Syl being able to sense some events at a distance.  Also Kaladin's ability to avoid the attacks during the arena duel.  Was Kaladin's impression that he could have avoided the blades even with his eyes closed simply a manifestation of being infused with stormlight or was there some surge based sensory enhancement in effect?

[LabRat]

Investiture can sense Investiture, so a KR with even a small amount of Stormlight should be able to sense a Blade/Plate at close range.

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I always thought of Kaladin's "Stormsense" as him being able to feel a MASSIVE source of Stormlight. Wasn't Shallan able to sense approaching Storms as well?

[Arondell]

Maybe I'm totally wrong, but I always thought of Kaladin's "Stormsense" as him being able to feel a MASSIVE source of Stormlight. Wasn't Shallan able to sense approaching Storms as well?

 

Was she?  I don't recall any time Shallan specifically "felt" an approaching storm hours ahead of time.  Part of my reasoning for basing Kaladin's sensing of the storm is that atmospheric pressure is one tool that is used to predict storms in real life so it seems reasonable to speculate it being one of the benefits of the Atmospheric Pressure(Adhesion) surge.  Also thematically appropriate given that Sylphrena is a daughter of the Stormfather. 

[LabRat]

I was genuinely asking. I *think* she could, but can't remember specifically WHY I think that, so it could be an assumption of my brain.

[Arondell]

I remember several occasions her mentioning storm predictions that have been written up but I don't recall her ever actually seeming to "feel" an incoming storm the way Kaladin did just after returning from the patrol.

 

 

Some of the stars moved— starspren, nothing to be surprised by— but something felt odd about the evening. He breathed in deeply. Was the air stale?

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 362). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“Highstorm,” Kaladin realized. It seemed like too soon since the last one, but they weren’t always regular— not in the way he thought of it. The stormwardens had to do complex mathematics to predict them; Kaladin’s father had made a hobby of it. Perhaps that was what he was noticing . Was he suddenly predicting highstorms because the night seemed too . . . something?

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 364). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[Moogle]

But this thread is about thinking outside the box, so consider this:  Could you get a friendly Edgedancer or Dustbringer to make the coin "Slick?"  Would it even have a terminal velocity then?

 

We see a Dustbringer moving through water as if it wasn't there, so I'd assume this is the case. This opens up some interesting combinations if we can give Lift Jezrien's Honorblade. She'd be able to fly much faster on less Stormlight than Kaladin, though I don't know whether the Honorblade's decreased efficiency would cancel out any gains... I don't think it would, since she could just constantly accelerate.

[DreamEternal]

Except if Kaladin could use Adhesion to decrease pressure and air resistence, or perhaps create favorable air flow, wich may be part of what he does when he is riding the winds with all the windspren. Also, I wonder if Adhesion works underwather, or in any gas that is not "air" as we see it.

[Moogle]

Except if Kaladin could use Adhesion to decrease pressure and air resistence, or perhaps create favorable air flow, wich may be part of what he does when he is riding the winds with all the windspren. Also, I wonder if Adhesion works underwather, or in any gas that is not "air" as we see it.

 

Szeth never remarks on doing this, and Kaladin does not seem to be able to out-fly him, so I don't think Kaladin has done anything like that yet.

 

I think it would be interesting if Adhesion could be used to fly better, since it is the "Surge of Pressure and Vacuum" (which implies it can be used underwater). I like the idea of being able to create a low-pressure area in front of you to reduce air resistance.

 

Since Kaladin created a pressure wave in WoK, and has apparently been creating vacuums to glue things together, it seems likely to me that Kaladin can both increase and decrease pressure. This seems at odds with other Surgebinding we've seen - Lift has yet to make Abrasion increase friction, for example, and there's a WoB hinting that Tension only makes things stiffer, not more floppy. I wonder if most Surges can be used to increase/decrease their phenomenon?

[LabRat]

Lift may simply not know she can, Kaladin's been using need and accident to figure out what he can do, or maybe she's been using increased friction without knowing it to help her climb.

OR! Maybe increased friction is very Stormlight-hungry, and she hasn't had enough available to her to use it yet.

[Dhavaer]

Lift has yet to make Abrasion increase friction

 

Isn't that how she does her super-climbing?

[DreamEternal]

Maybe it is part of it, but as far as we know she just uses her ability to touch spren to climb Wyndle.