One Question I Never Understood the Answer To (Spoilers)

[DariusJenai]

So, the earthquake/Chasm creation caused the Aon formed by Elantris to be 'incorrect', causing all Elantrians, new and old, to take the new 'death-like' look (bald, wrinkly, patched, etc).

Was this then the original look of those taken by the Shaod?  The Elantrians before they built Elantris?

If not, why would the incorrectness of the Elantris 'amplifier' Aon result in the failure of the Shaod?  It had to have worked before Elantris was built, or there would have been no Elantrians to discover AonDor and create Elantris as an Aon.

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

Well, one theory is that pre-Elantris Elantrians were similar to how they are with Elantris built and running, just not as strong.  Elantris would act as a amplifier, making the Elantrians as strong as they are.

I'm not sure if this is right, but this is as solid a theory on the subject as I've seen.

[trendkill he/him]

Should this thread maybe be merged with the one I posted a while back? The questions aren't exactly the same, but they are rather similar.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/index.php/topic,359.msg2449.html#msg2449

[Chaos he/him]

Eh, no need for rampant topic merging, I should think, especially as I look at this, I see a very key distinction--the Shaod--which isn't really addressed in the other topic, trendkill.

I don't have any answer for you, DariusJenai. That would require knowing what sort of mechanism causes the Shaod. Some have theorized that it's similar to Snapping in some regard, but as far as I know, that's as far as the theories go. Brandon's really quiet on divulging information about Elantris. Way of Kings gave us extra information, but there are a lot of questions that still need answering.

I'd sure like to know what causes the Shaod...

[Zas678 he/him]

Maybe there's a Sliver holding the remnant of Aona's shard, and he/she is picking the right people to help Elantris.

Those that need the city, and the city needs them. Who else besides Raoden would've been able to inspire the people like he did?

</ crazy theory>

Huh. I never thought about that before. What if the Elantrians are Splinters? The Seons do seem to  fit better, but the Elantrians seem eerily similar to the Returned. Magical powers, immortal, looked to as god, awesome looks, etc.

[Puck he/him]

I definitely don't have all of the answers here (especially regarding how the Reod selects its candidates), but I might be able to offer some clarification on the original question

Here are the premises (ie - the facts):

1) We need to keep in mind the difference between the Shaod and the Reod. They are 2 separate things. They're not even 2 sides to the same coin, really, but 2 independent processes.

---a) The Shaod is (for the purposes of this discussion) timeless, existing independently of the Reod.

--- The Reod is temporary; because of the landscape of Arelon changing, the Aons that the Elantrians draw (and have drawn) became incomplete (and therefor ineffectual or, at worst, corrupted) spells. Really, the best way to look at the Reod is an event in which all Aons no longer wrk properly.

---c) The Reod is not the changing of an Elantrian into a bald, sickly, hairless creature that is unable to heal from pain, etc. This Sickness is a consequence of the Reod, but not the Reod itself

2) Brandon has referred to Elantris as an amplifier (Ch. 62.2 annotation). If I may, I believe that the most precise way of saying what he meant to say was this: Elantris is an amplification spell.

---a) Aons (with a capital A) are spells. These spells have 2 requirements: an aon (lower-case a) and an someone taken by the Shaod (i.e. - an Elantrian) hand to draw them.

--- An Elantrian can use any tool to create an Aon; it doesn't have to be a finger (p. 505)

---c) It follows that the City of Elantris, which is a big aon created by Elantrian hands, is an Aon - a spell. And, as Brandon has stated, it's an amplification spell, targeted to amplify the powers of those taken by the Shaod. (I know I'm dwelling on this point, but it's very important.)

3) The key to understanding the Sickness is the "control experiment" that Brandon has given us: Seala (Dilaf's wife/significant other)

"When she fell sick, I took her to Elantris... They changed her," he whispered. "They said the spell went wrong... Her skin turned black, her hair fell out, and she began to die. She screamed at night, yelling that the pain was eating her from the inside. Eventually she threw herself off the city wall... I found her at the bottom, still alive. Still alive, despite the fall." pp. 580-581, emphasis added

This is crucial. Seala was not an Elantrian (in the proper sense of 'someone taken by the Shaod'), but she did get the Sickness when a spell-went-wrong targeted her.

And here's the rest of the reasoning (ie - the conjecture):

4) The Sickness can affect anyone (Elantrian or not) who is targeted by an Aon-gone-wrong (and it doesn't affect people who aren't targeted by an Aon-gone-wrong)

5) The City-of-Elantris-Aon targets Elantrians (to amplify their power)

6) During the Reod, the City-of-Elantris-Aon (and every other Aon, for that matter) was an Aon-gone-wrong

7) During the Reod, the Elantrians had the Sickness because they were the targets (for 10 years) of a mal-formed Aon.

why would the incorrectness of the Elantris 'amplifier' Aon result in the failure of the Shaod?  It had to have worked before Elantris was built, or there would have been no Elantrians to discover AonDor and create Elantris as an Aon.

The Shaod didn't fail; it still happened normally (remember premise 1). It's just that for 10 years, in addition to the Shaod, there was also the Reod which targeted anyone taken by the Shaod.

To put it in another way:

Pre-Reod Elantrians = Shaod

Reod Elantrians = Shaod + Reod (and the Reod includes the Sickness)

Post-Reod Elantrians = Shaod

Did any of that make sense? I feel like I've digressed into rambling. I'll stop now.

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

Point 4 is a bit iffy.  The only spell-gone-wrong we saw effect someone like an Elantrian was a healing spell, affecting them on a biological level.  Whether other types of spells would have the same effect remains to be seen.

The Reod is the name of an event, not an independent phenomenon.  The earthquake that created the chasm caused it by making the Aons no longer correct.  The Reod was not undone, simply that the Elantris amplification Aon no longer worked because it was wrong.  Raoden just fixed it, updating it to the new version.  It's like when a computer program gets a developer update making it so can't run on an old machine anymore, what Raoden did could be equated to updating the hardware.

[Puck he/him]

Point 4 is a bit iffy.   The only spell-gone-wrong we saw effect someone like an Elantrian was a healing spell, affecting them on a biological level.  Whether other types of spells would have the same effect remains to be seen.

Fair enough. Even though the little evidence we have does support the point, I agree that a study with only one case is hardly authoritative.

The Reod is the name of an event, not an independent phenomenon.  The earthquake that created the chasm caused it by making the Aons no longer correct.  The Reod was not undone, simply that the Elantris amplification Aon no longer worked because it was wrong.  Raoden just fixed it, updating it to the new version.  It's like when a computer program gets a developer update making it so can't run on an old machine anymore, what Raoden did could be equated to updating the hardware.

I agree. I feel our differences here are basically semantic ('event' = 'phenomenon' for all intents and purposes). That's why, in Premise 1, I said that "the best way to look at the Reod is an event [or phenomenon, if you prefer. 'Period' would have been the best word, in retrospect] in which all Aons no longer work properly."

I like the Software Patch & Update analogy

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

But fixing Elantris didn't fix all the Aons.  The basic Aon is permanently changed.  They have to now go around and fix all the other Aons in order to bring Elantris back to what it was.

[Zas678 he/him]

Hmm. If Seala was turned into the equivalent of a Reod-Elantrian due to a Aon, I wonder if you could do it the right way. Could you find the right Aon that would turn someone into an Elantrian?

[Puck he/him]

But fixing Elantris didn't fix all the Aons.  The basic Aon is permanently changed.  They have to now go around and fix all the other Aons in order to bring Elantris back to what it was.

Right. But, for what this thread is discussing, the Aon that needed to be fixed is not every Aon in Elantris, but the Elantris-Aon (Rao) itself.

It was that Aon (and not the sum of all Aons in Elantris) that acted as the amplifier. It was because that Aon (which targeted Elantrians) was incomplete (after the addition of the Chasm) that Elantrians had the sickness and the Aons weren't as powerful as they had before. Once Raoden figures out the trick and fixes the Elantris-the-City-Aon, the Reod is effectively over; the subsequent Aon-fixing is clerical. One could insist that the Reod isn't Over until every last Aon is fixed and every last Elantrian knows how to create Aons effectively, but that just seems... excessive.

I'd rather not get too nitpicky about this. As with all historical periods (Dark Ages, Renaissance, Enlightenment, etc), it's always hard to pin a definite start/end date. The Reod is such a period in the Elantrian world. I consider Raoden's discovery of the problem with Aons and fixing of the AonDor amplifier (thus healing the sickness) as the end of the Reod (or the Aons-mysteriously-not-working-like-they-used-to period).

[Puck he/him]

Hmm. If Seala was turned into the equivalent of a Reod-Elantrian due to a Aon, I wonder if you could do it the right way. Could you find the right Aon that would turn someone into an Elantrian?

I don't think so. That's part of the problem of thinking that the Shaod (or becoming an Elantrian) and the Reod (which causes the sickness) are one. You can be an Elantrian without having the Reod sickness, and you can have the Reod sickness without being an Elantrian. This was the case with Seala (in fact, I believe her case to be the proof of that).

I believe that Seala was affected by her own, personal mini-Reod (if you will), caused by that one botched Aon. She never was an Elantrian, even after she got the Sickness. ("The Sickness." Ugh, I'm starting to get irritated by my own terminology!)

I think that the way that the Reod selects is a bit higher-level than an Aon surreptitiously cast in the middle of night, so to speak. Maybe related to Seons, but that's just a stab in the dark at this point.

All of these points are speculation on my part, of course

[Zas678 he/him]

You know, it's interesting to note that Elantris is based upon Rao, or Spirit. Maybe what Shaod does is it increases someone's spiritual connection to Aona's shard. And maybe it happens while they are asleep so that their Cognitive presence doesn't mess with the Spiritual or Physical changes.

.

And looking back on my question, I realize the answer is obviously yes. That's where we get Elantrians in the first place. From an Aon someone made. Elantris. 

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

When you consider the fact that Allomancy is based on a greater connection to Preservation it makes a ton of sense, yeah.

[DariusJenai]

Good answer, Puck.

I'd been thinking it along the same lines as Raoden, as a sort of 'half-complete' transformation.  If you think of it as a separate problem on top of being an Elantrian, it fits together much better.

Hmm. If Seala was turned into the equivalent of a Reod-Elantrian due to a Aon, I wonder if you could do it the right way. Could you find the right Aon that would turn someone into an Elantrian?

I've long thought the answer was yes.  Although I'd be willing to bet it's probably not a new Aon they need, but the proper modifiers to aon Shao.

What's most interesting about Seala's case is that in every other case we see/hear about an Aon missing one of its basic lines, the Aon simply fades and fails to work.  Since this particular case behaves in a manner decidedly different, does that lend support to Dilaf's paranoia that the Elantrian did it intentionally?  Or is it Aon Shao (never confirmed, but presumably the base Aon for healing) that acts differently from the other Aons?

[CrazyRioter she/her]

actually I think the Aon you'd use for healing would be Aon Ien, as that means healing, IIRC. Of course, my dad has my copy of Elantris at the moment, so I can't check.......

[Puck he/him]

actually I think the Aon you'd use for healing would be Aon Ien, as that means healing, IIRC. Of course, my dad has my copy of Elantris at the moment, so I can't check.......

Ien is actually the aon for Wisdom. I looked through the Ars Arcanum and didn't see any aon for healing. Shao would make sense, but we'll have to wait and see (I'm only about halfway through my Elantris re-read, if it's in there at all). If anyone knows which aon is used for healing, let us know.

EDIT: I stand corrected, CrazyRioter. You're right: Ien is the base aon of healing, assuming that Raoden's memory of his healing is accurate. I just got to that part in the book (p. 266)

What's most interesting about Seala's case is that in every other case we see/hear about an Aon missing one of its basic lines, the Aon simply fades and fails to work.  Since this particular case behaves in a manner decidedly different, does that lend support to Dilaf's paranoia that the Elantrian did it intentionally?  Or is it Aon Shao (never confirmed, but presumably the base Aon for healing) that acts differently from the other Aons?

This is a question that has nagged at me for a while. I have a few theories, all equally (ill-)supported by what we know.

Theory #1: Like you said, the healing Aon itself is different from all other Aons.

---Objection: While this is the simplest (in the Occam sense) of the theories, it seems a little wand-wavy for Brandon's style.

Theory #2: Aons act differently when targeting a person. Therefore, they haywire differently when targeting a person.

---Objection: Same as the Theory #1 (but to a lesser degree)

Theory #3: (This theory is a little out there, but it might have a kernel of something.) The reason the Seala case is an exception is because of Dilaf's presence (I asked this question on the recent open call for answers from Brandon. We'll see if it's a RAFO), because of his FjorDor (or DakhorDor, or whatever we're deciding to call it) nature. There was, for lack of a better analogy, a kind of incompatible wave interference while the Elantrian was casting the Aon to heal Seala. After all, it says in the book that the spell "went wrong," not that a mistake was made or a line left out.

---Objection: It kind of throws out the window my big explanation earlier on in the thread :/

---Objection: It presupposes that the power behind FjorDor (presumably Skai's, but not necessarily... but that's another discussion) was also involved with the Reod, an assumption which (as far as I know) has been pretty much discounted on the forums and by Brandon.

---Objection: Assuming that we get over the previous objection, it presupposes that there is some kind of innate animosity/incompatibility between Aona's Shard and the shard behind FjorDor. While this is possible, it hasn't been established and would be a little too reminiscent of MB, which you'd think Brandon would be avoiding (unless, of course there's an underlying logic to why opposing shards would land on the same planet (magnets, opposite poles attracting, etc.) but, again, that is a question for a different thread.) Anyway, it presupposes something pretty major for which we have little (some, but little) evidence.

Anyway, those are the explanations that I've come up with, though all are clearly lacking.

[DariusJenai]

Theory #3 is probably the best bet, but it does say that one of the basic lines was missing.  Not sure what page it is (I only have my eBook version with me), but it's in Chapter 25.

[Puck he/him]

Nice! Good call.  I skimmed through the book 2 times looking for that reference, knowing it was there but not able to find it. Thanks DariusJenai!

[DariusJenai]

Nice! Good call.  I skimmed through the book 2 times looking for that reference, knowing it was there but not able to find it. Thanks DariusJenai!

It's the one advantage I have with eBooks.  It's fairly easy to search through them for references I need.  Sadly, I lose some of the amazing interior artwork, and it's much more difficult to give page numbers.

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

The problem with Theory 3 is that Dilaf didn't become Dakhor until after what happened to Seala, in fact it was partially responsible.  So whether or not Elantrian magic and Dakhor magic negatively affects each other doesn't matter in this instance since there wasn't any Dakhor magic in the area.

[DariusJenai]

The problem with Theory 3 is that Dilaf didn't become Dakhor until after what happened to Seala, in fact it was partially responsible.  So whether or not Elantrian magic and Dakhor magic negatively affects each other doesn't matter in this instance since there wasn't any Dakhor magic in the area.

He would almost have to have been Dakhor by then.  He was gradget of Dakhor monestary when Hrathen was just a boy, and this was "just before [Dilaf] left for Arelon"(CH 60).  Hrathen thinks to himself that "What was wrong with Hrathen that, in thirty years of serving Jaddeth

[Silus - Shard of Flame he/him]

My mistake then.  It's been a while since I read it and I guess I don't remember Dilaf's timeline that well.

[happyman he/him]

Good answer, Puck.

I'd been thinking it along the same lines as Raoden, as a sort of 'half-complete' transformation.  If you think of it as a separate problem on top of being an Elantrian, it fits together much better.

Hmm. If Seala was turned into the equivalent of a Reod-Elantrian due to a Aon, I wonder if you could do it the right way. Could you find the right Aon that would turn someone into an Elantrian?

I've long thought the answer was yes.  Although I'd be willing to bet it's probably not a new Aon they need, but the proper modifiers to aon Shao.

What's most interesting about Seala's case is that in every other case we see/hear about an Aon missing one of its basic lines, the Aon simply fades and fails to work.  Since this particular case behaves in a manner decidedly different, does that lend support to Dilaf's paranoia that the Elantrian did it intentionally?  Or is it Aon Shao (never confirmed, but presumably the base Aon for healing) that acts differently from the other Aons?

An interesting bit of speculation.  I didn't think about this when I first read the book, but now that I think about it, I'm sure Brandon knows exactly what went wrong.

Perhaps if the Aon gets changed halfway through (e.g. it picks a target, and then gets modified) things happen differently.  Perhaps the healer accidentally wiped out one of the fundamental lines, rather than neglecting it completely?

[beatlesfan42]

One thing I'm not getting yet, is this: If adding the Chasm line to Elantris allowed the transformation to finish, then how did Elantrians come about in the first place?

Their power more than likely comes from the spiritual part of the shard (more than likely Aona) and Elantris was constructed as a gigantic power modifier (or was that a side effect?) It doesn't make sense that when the Reod occured, the current Elantrians became Sick. It seems that the Sickness would only happen to the Post-Reod Elantrians, not the old ones...

Excuse the rambling that I'm sure occurred in there.