Comet Spren

[Stormwalker]

In WoB, Eshonai, after changing into stormform sees a peculiar cometlike spren:

Eshonai waved her hand as she climbed the central spire of Narak trying to shoo away the tiny spren. It danced around her head, shedding rings of light from its comelike form. Horrid thing. Why would it not leave her alone?

...

That rhythm! It sounded like... like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain. What was that? She shook her head, and found that she had reflexively pulled her hand to her chest in anxiety. When she opened it, the cometlike spren shot out.

WoR I-11, pg 711

 

In various threads I've seen the theory that the comet spren Eshonai sees is either a radiant spren that she has attracted (usually a willshaper one) or that of her shardblade. Someone even mentioned that there is a WoB confirming the spren is related to one of the orders. I assume they are talking about this:

Sir Jerric

Do we see the highspren at all in Words of Radiance? And if so, do they look like a comet?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a good question. That's a gooood, good question. I will say this, the comet, hmm, the comet spren. The comet spren is very important to an order of Knights Radiant.

(http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27comet%20spren%27)

 

However, I think we see this spren in one other place:

 

 

Kaladin was sure he heard terrible screams over the winds, as red spren he'd never seen before--like small meteors, trailing light behind them--zipped around him.

WoR Ch 86, pg 1039 (during the fight between szeth and kaladin, just after they reached the recently-emptied oathgate plateau)

 

Now, the void spren we've seen are described as lightning-like I believe, so this isn't them; small meteors trailing light sound like a comet to me. Again, in their presence are screams (just like what Eshonai heard), however there are apparently more than one of them, and Eshonai is nowhere to be seen (having earlier fallen down a chasm). In fact, Kaladin and Szeth are the only two people close by. Maybe the rest of the parshendi are one or two plateaus away, but not really close.

 

This seems to me like the above theories are wrong. We are somewhat near the parshendi I suppose, so maybe if others are also proto-radiants it could work, but that seems unlikely to me. Otherwise I don't see how it could be the case. The theory that it is Eshonai's shardblade spren in particular is definitely out, as then there should only be the one spren.

 

All in all, I'm confused as to why Kaladin sees these spren here at all given the above WoB. Anyone have any thoeries? The best I can think of is that Brandon only says the spren is important, not that it is directly related, so it may be more tangential than was thought. WoB notwithstanding, spren that bring screams sound like some sort of void spren to me.

 

Edit: Perhaps if the cometspren is a high spren, and there were only two: one for Eshonai and one for Szeth, then it might work. Although again, why would Eshonai's spren be so far from her?

Edited May 5, 2015 by Stormwalker

[Elithanathile he/him]

Possibly, these comet-spren are the observers of the even more powerful terror that may arise later in the series, keeping him/her/it informed of pivotal events. Eshonai sucking in a storm-spren would fit, as would Kaladins battle vs. Szeth. Another possibility is they are redemption spren, or something along those lines. It is said that every radiant is cracked, broken in some way, and these sprens possibly attempt to get them to realize they are going in the wrong direction and recover. It would fit for Eshonai, as she instinctively grabs it, and pulls it close. In the storm, they are trying to get Szeth to back down and think about what he is doing.

 

No proof for any of these, just random theorizing.

[kaellok he/him]

People tend to think that Szeth will be a Skybreaker, which requires bonding a high spren. That easily explains why they are near him. (We have seen a spren be... changed... to a red form before, in a Dal Dalinar vision.)

I really don't see how either of the commonly presented theories are wrong based on what you've said so far. Nothing says the red spren were the cause of the screams, just that he saw them at the same time as he heard the noises. We also know that Szeth hears screaming all the time now, and it's probably related to one of the Unmade (on my phone now, hard to find/copy/paste the WoB I'm referencing.)

[Stormwalker]

I really don't see how either of the commonly presented theories are wrong based on what you've said so far. Nothing says the red spren were the cause of the screams, just that he saw them at the same time as he heard the noises. We also know that Szeth hears screaming all the time now, and it's probably related to one of the Unmade (on my phone now, hard to find/copy/paste the WoB I'm referencing.)

 

Well, it seems odd that Kaladin would just-so-happen to hear screams when he sees the same spren that was associated with Eshonai hearing screams. As the Alethi armies had already gone through the Oathgate, the fighting would have been done at this time. The parshendi would have still been there, but who knows how far away they would have been at the time (I assume they retreated after losing the fighting). As Kaladin was in the middle of a highstorm, and couldn't even hear Szeth talking a mere two sentences before, who else could he have been hearing?

 

In any case, the reason I thought that this implies the theories are wrong, was that 1) Kaladin sees the spren; and 2) there are spren plural. (1) means that the encounter of the spren with Eshonai wasn't special, and so it ceases to be great evidence of radiant sprenhood. (2) means that if they were radiant spren, there must be many protoradiants nearby, which is unlikely to be the case. So together, it seems like evidence against the aforementioned theories.

[navybrandt he/him]

Speculation: We know that the Parshendi, in storm form, are changed (evil?). What if that red comet spren are each of their original personalities. The one that was bothering Eshonai was, in fact, the original Eshonai - or her original soul or something like that. It sounded like it was in torment, so perhaps she is in damnation too?

[Zas678 he/him]

So you're saying that the spren becomes imbedded in the soul, and forces part of the original soul out to leave . That's even past hemalurgical. 

 

I don't think that the void? spren could be that strong to force part of the soul out, but that's a good idea, and I kind of like it. 

[kaellok he/him]

Well, it seems odd that Kaladin would just-so-happen to hear screams when he sees the same spren that was associated with Eshonai hearing screams. As the Alethi armies had already gone through the Oathgate, the fighting would have been done at this time. The parshendi would have still been there, but who knows how far away they would have been at the time (I assume they retreated after losing the fighting). As Kaladin was in the middle of a highstorm, and couldn't even hear Szeth talking a mere two sentences before, who else could he have been hearing?

 

In any case, the reason I thought that this implies the theories are wrong, was that 1) Kaladin sees the spren; and 2) there are spren plural. (1) means that the encounter of the spren with Eshonai wasn't special, and so it ceases to be great evidence of radiant sprenhood. (2) means that if they were radiant spren, there must be many protoradiants nearby, which is unlikely to be the case. So together, it seems like evidence against the aforementioned theories.

How i read it and continue to believe: The spren is/are not the cause of the screaming. There are three different phenomena at work.

1. Spren flying around. There can be multiple radiant spren around one proto radiant; the presence of six does not mean there are six proto radiants. Shallan saw several cryptic spren through her drawings, and yet bonded only one.

2. Eshonai hears screaming when tuning to a specific song. This screaming reminded me of a radiant hearing screams while touching a Blade. I think that the void spren has done damage to her similar in nature to a radiant killing their spren; some key bit has been ripped out, but she only notices when she focuses on it. I would assume ALL Parshendi hear this screaming when tuning the song, and it is quite independent of radiantness.

3. Szeth hears the screaming of the damned souls he has killed. In the Highstorm/ Everstorm mix, Kaladin does, too. One of the Unmade fits this description, and when asked, Brandon indicated that may be what Szeth is hearing.

There are other times when people hear screaming, but no red spren are around, too. The combination in a few instances seems coincidence, not design. Dalinar heard no screaming when neara red spren in his flashback, after all.

[Moogle]

It is very important to note that listeners and humans see spren differently. What Eshonai sees as a comet should not match what Kaladin sees as a comet (prooooobably, we've never seen a listener's view of Syl as she morphs). Because of this, as well as the WoB on the matter saying it was important to one of the orders, I do not think the spren she sees is of Odium.

[Stormwalker]

 

1. Spren flying around. There can be multiple radiant spren around one proto radiant; the presence of six does not mean there are six proto radiants. Shallan saw several cryptic spren through her drawings, and yet bonded only one.

 

Thats true. Although Eshonai herself only saw one. I'm just saying that if the first comet spren was because Eshonai was a protoradiant, then it seems unlikely that Kaladin, when he wasn't near Eshonai, would see many. I don't mean to say that the theory is definitely out, just that (unless it has something to do with Szeth being there) the theory seems unlikely with this evidence.

 

As for the screams, that was mostly a side point. Before I saw this second comet spren passage, I was also doubtful whether the screams Eshonai heard were from the spren she saw, or from the rhythm (I'll admit I still am to some degree). However, now Kaladin also happens to hear screams at the same time he sees these spren. You say that Kaladin's screams are the same as those that Szeth hears, but I don't see any more evidence for that than the comet spren. Kaladin has certainly never heard those screams before as far as I'm aware. I know two data points isn't very much, but how many can we expect in a single book? And we are still 2/2 for screams with comet spren sightings.

 

 

There are other times when people hear screaming, but no red spren are around, too. The combination in a few instances seems coincidence, not design. Dalinar heard no screaming when neara red spren in his flashback, after all.

 

Um... I'm not saying all screaming is caused by the comet spren, nor was I speculating that all void spren cause screaming (I don't remember Dalinar's red spren being cometlike). So I'm not sure what you're saying here.

 

 

It is very important to note that listeners and humans see spren differently.

 

Really? I don't remember that. Can you give an example? It again would seem like a really big coincidence if that was true and Kaladin was seeing a completely different spren.

[Moogle]

Really? I don't remember that. Can you give an example? It again would seem like a really big coincidence if that was true and Kaladin was seeing a completely different spren.

 

I looked for the post that originally brought up the differences, but I couldn't find it. Here is a quick smattering of examples.

 

Eshonai's angerspren:

She spoke to Reprimand to the mateforms, her words so passionate that she actually attracted angerspren. She saw them coming from a ways off, drawn by her emotion, moving with an incredible speed— like lightning dancing toward her across the distant stone. The lightning pooled at her feet, turning the stones red.

 

Adolin's angerspren:

Adolin looked over his shoulder. Vamah was watching them stand there, and his expression was as thunderous as a highstorm, angerspren boiling up from the ground around him like small pools of bubbling blood.

 

Eshonai on stormspren:

The spren escaped from its prison and spun around her, giving off a strange red light. Splinters of lightning sprang from it. Angerspren?

...

The spren became a streak of red light and hit her in the chest. Tendrils of red spread outward.

 

Dalinar on stormspren:

Though these Parshendi soldiers were sleeker and more ferocious-looking than the ones he’d previously fought, their eyes burned just as easily. Then they dropped dead and something wiggled out of their chests— small red spren, like tiny lightning, that zipped into the air and vanished.

 

Eshonai on fearspren:

Eshonai gaped, the Rhythm of Anxiety strong in her mind. A few fearspren, like long purple worms, dove in and out of the rock nearby, collecting toward her until they crawled up out of the ground around her.

 

Cenn on fearspren (note: this is slightly cherrypicked, see Shallan on them next):

Why was this squad at the very front, where casualties were bound to be the greatest? Small fearspren—like globs of purplish goo—began to climb up out of the ground and gather around his feet.

 

Shallan on fearspren:

Fearspren suddenly began to wiggle out of the sand, purple and sluglike.

 

Venli's exhaustionspren:

“We don’t know which of the songs are true,” Venli said. Though she said it to Resolve, she sounded tired, and she drew exhaustionspren. They came with a sound like wind, blowing in through the windows and doors like jets of translucent vapor before becoming stronger, more visible, and spinning around her head like swirls of steam.

 

Jasnah's exhaustionspren:

She set down the pen, closing her eyes and massaging her temples. A few dizzy-looking spren, like jets of dust rising into the air, appeared around Jasnah’s head. Exhaustionspren.

 

The spren are similar, but not the same. I think angerspren show the difference most clearly: they are red lightning to the listeners, and bubbling blood to humans.

 

I note that this effect may be due to the listener's minds being closer to the Cognitive. In the Cognitive, spren appear differently. As an example from Shallan showing an exhaustionspren:

As she touched it, she noticed something sweeping through the air above her. She cringed, looking up to find large, birdlike creatures circling around her in Shadesmar. They were a dark grey and seemed to have no specific shape, their forms blurry.

 

It's also possible that they do see the same things, I suppose, and it's just an error of description. I think that there is a significant enough difference, however.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Myself I've never really seen this difference of description of spren between Parshendi and human viewpoints that way. You say that Parshendi and humans simply see spren differently, but so far as I can tell they see them exactly the same—but only at the very end of the spren's arrival, when they manifest. Everything weird we've seen from Eshonai's perspective has been a matter of the spren "in-transit". It's very important to note here that only ever in the Parshendi viewpoints do we actually see spren in the act of being drawn to someone: with everyone else they just show up right near by.

 

Angerspren: look/move like lightning as they are attracted to anger, but then are a pool of red when they finally get there.

 

Stormspren (the only not-completely definitive example so far as I can see, but still I think pretty much in line with the others): Weird until it's in Eshonai, then just mention of "tendrils of red spreading outwards": Dalinar then sees just the tendrils of red right near the bodies and then zip off and vanish into thin air immediately.

 

Fearspren: Eshonai sees them lightning-worm their way over, but then when they get there they're just wriggling in the ground.

 

Exhaustionspren: The clearest evidence so far, I think, perhaps tied with angerspren. Here we see clearly the break even from the Parshendi viewpoint of how the spren appear when "in transit" and how they appear when they become "stronger".

 

--

 

So I think it fairly easy to argue here that the Parshendi, being more in the Cognitive, are seeing at least some of the type of thing Shallan saw when she was in Shadesmar. But when the spren manifest more fully in the Physical, the spren do in fact take on the same appearance to Parshendi as they do to humans: by this logic, a human who gained a bit more Cognitive insight should start being able to see the same "in transit" forms of spren as Parshendi do.

 

--

 

So, to go back to the original point, perhaps Kaladin and Eshonai saw different things if the spren they saw were at different "levels of manifestation." I doubt that, though, if only because every other time the Parshendi see a spren "in-place" rather than being actively attracted, it's taken on the same form as it does for humans.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Kurkistan

[Moogle]

@Kurk:

 

I don't know if I agree. Some of the examples are weak, but...

 

Angerspren: she never describes angerspren as bubbling like blood - just that they pool to turn the rock red. Her later confusion about a stormspren being an angerspren due to it looking like lightning seems to further support this.

 

Stormspren: Stormspren are described as a red glow(?) giving off crackles of electricity by Eshonai, but Dalinar describes them as electricity, so I found that weird.

 

Originally I thought that the slug/glob/worm thing signified a difference, but I guess they could be seen as similar. I would never call a slug a worm, but if they're "globs of goo" with a less defined shape, well... maybe. I have similar feelings for the steam/dust distinction.

 

I'm not wholly convinced they view them entirely the same. Given that spren are at least partially shaped by their observers (as demonstrated with the flamespren measuring experiment), I wouldn't be surprised to see cultural differences resulting in different spren appearances.

 

I'll grant the main difference comes from seeing them in transit, and I'll give a decent chance to this confusion resulting at least partially from sparse descriptions of the spren, but I'd still like a WoB on the matter.

 

---

 

In any case, I retract my previous point re. the comet spren. If listeners see them differently, they don't see spren too differently, so a similar description for cometspren either way makes this a more compelling theory. Still not convinced due to the WoB on the spren being important to one order of Radiants.

[restless he/him]

Speculation: We know that the Parshendi, in storm form, are changed (evil?). What if that red comet spren are each of their original personalities. The one that was bothering Eshonai was, in fact, the original Eshonai - or her original soul or something like that. It sounded like it was in torment, so perhaps she is in damnation too?

Eshonai was in warform - so maybe this comet-like spren is the her war-form-spren ?

 

And all other similar sprens are from other parshendi getting into storm-form

Edited May 8, 2015 by restless

[Arook he/him]

So i just read that part again with Eshonai and how I saw it was maybe the spren forced her to attune a new song and maybe that song was who she was before the change and the song may be the key to how the listeners broke away from their gods originally . On a side note at one point Syl says that Parshendi can not be surge binders. This makes sense when you figure that they don't have a spren they act almost like un-bonded spren in the physical world(ie no mind to speak of). 

[Moogle]

So i just read that part again with Eshonai and how I saw it was maybe the spren forced her to attune a new song and maybe that song was who she was before the change and the song may be the key to how the listeners broke away from their gods originally . On a side note at one point Syl says that Parshendi can not be surge binders. This makes sense when you figure that they don't have a spren they act almost like un-bonded spren in the physical world(ie no mind to speak of). 

 

They can use the Surges (if not quite be Surgebinders?), according to the epigraphs:

"But it is not impossible to blend / Their Surges to ours in the end. / It has been promised and it can come. / Or do we understand the sum? / We questioned not if they can have us then, / But if we dare to have them again."

 

Brandon's also mentioned that they haven't become Radiants historically, rather than outright denying it. I think they might be able to become normal Surgebinders.

[Arook he/him]

They can use the Surges (if not quite be Surgebinders?), according to the epigraphs:

"But it is not impossible to blend / Their Surges to ours in the end. / It has been promised and it can come. / Or do we understand the sum? / We questioned not if they can have us then, / But if we dare to have them again."

 

Brandon's also mentioned that they haven't become Radiants historically, rather than outright denying it. I think they might be able to become normal Surgebinders.

 

So so far this is what i have found

 

The betrayal of spren has brought us here.

They gave their Surges to human heirs,

But not to those who know them most dear, before us.

’Tis no surprise we turned away

Unto the gods we spent our days

And to become their molding clay, they changed us.

 

—From the Listener Song of Secrets, 40th stanza

 

Smokeform for hiding and slipping ’tween men.

A form of power—like Surges of spren.

Do we dare to wear this form again? It spies.

Crafted of gods, this form we fear.

By Unmade touch its curse to bear,

Formed from shadow—and death is near. It lies.

 

—From the Listener Song of Secrets, 51st stanza

 

“And the Parshendi I killed?”

“We’ve talked about this. It had to be done.”

“And what if one of them was a Surgebinder,” Kaladin said. “With his own honorspren?”

“Parshendi can’t become Surgebin—”

 

WoR  -ebook 1119.6 / 2391

 

 

Kaladin cut her off but I would bet that word finished "ders"

 

Parshendi however do form some other bond with spren  and share some special connection and may even be able to join with honor spren to make something like a surgebinder but not with the same powers would be my guess. 

 

It could be possible for a parshendi to join an order but, not be a true surge binder.