Conjoiner Telegraphy

[Kurkistan he/him]

Okay, I see you're point, and your right. It depends a lot on the use at hand.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Kurkistan

[hoser he/him]

Oh secondary idea, get 2 taut skins, embed conjoined rubies in each = possible telephone.

I love this idea!

[Vortaan he/him]

Just a point, long distance military communication somewhat falls apart when most of your commanders are front line fighters, unless you can figure out some kind of Starship Trooper-esque system to stick in the helmet of Plate.

Now that I think about it, actually, there probably IS a communication ability in Plate that isn't available yet, or else Knights Radiant, whom are basically one man armies, have severe danger of getting isolated without orders from home base.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Just a point, long distance military communication somewhat falls apart when most of your commanders are front line fighters, unless you can figure out some kind of Starship Trooper-esque system to stick in the helmet of Plate.

Now that I think about it, actually, there probably IS a communication ability in Plate that isn't available yet, or else Knights Radiant, whom are basically one man armies, have severe danger of getting isolated without orders from home base.

Just about any military order falls apart when your generals are too busy playing with their power armor to actually control the battle. Shardbearer generals should either delegate their command or delegate their Plate/Blade. Anything else is a rather criminal misallocation of resources.

We saw that Knights Radiant fought as units in the Feverstone Keep flashback, though their smaller deployment in Dalinar's vision with the "ink creatures" might suggest a benefit from communication.

I don't think it's strictly necessary for such communication-systems to be in Plate, actually. Radiants probably fought mainly as units in large scale battles during the Last Desolation. Communication would be nice, but it's not really necessary for Shardbearers to function properly, at least as they were first "designed."

Edited January 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Emeralis00 she/her]

I like this thread.

also you might be able to get around the orientation problem by attaching the rubies to sticks with a spring on them, and have an attached plate for it to contact. Unless I misunderstand how the rubies move to each other, the setup could be face in any direction.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Emeralis00

[Vortaan he/him]

Just about any military order falls apart when your generals are too busy playing with their power armor to actually control the battle. Shardbearer generals should either delegate their command or delegate their Plate/Blade. Anything else is a rather criminal misallocations of resources.

We saw that Knights Radiant fought as units in the Feverstone Keep flashback, though their smaller deployment in Dalinar's vision with the "ink creatures" might suggest a benefit from communication.

I don't think it's strictly necessary for such communication-systems to be in Plate, actually. Radiants probably fought mainly as units in large scale battles during the Last Desolation. Communication would be nice, but it's not really necessary for Shardbearers to function properly, at least as they were first "designed."

That said though, at least against normal armies, a Shardbearer is enough of a presence on the battlefield to probably turn the tide of battle one way or another. We don't know what the Desolations were like, battle wise, but if they were similar to the "ink creatures", I really think they'd benefit from smaller units that could reinforce the much larger, and much more poorly armed, human forces. In that case, being able to communicate with those small forces and in effect the larger human forces might be very beneficial.

[hoser he/him]

I understand that this thread is about speculation, but I think there is evidence for the Radiants having remote and telepathic communication in the Midnight Essence vision (Chapter 19) (requoted from another thread, apologies to all if that's wrong):

The female Shardbearer turned to her companion, then the two of them fell into stances forming a triangle with Dalinar.

She looked to the side, expression growing distant. "Harkaylain says the Desolation is close, and he is not often wrong. ..."

The second quote, in particular, seems to be describing a remote communication in real-time. Does the remote communication ability come from the armor, is it an ability of all radiants or is specific to certain orders? I don't know, but the Stoneward woman doesn't seem to be using a fabrial.

I think it's sort of a spren thing, similar to the way Syl communicates with Kaladin without anybody else hearing. I think he will probably start communicating w/her similarly.

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Vortaan and hoser

Okay, I think we've reached the point where a new thread needs to be spun off. Please drop a link here when one of you has posted it, and we'll continue the discussion there. In particular, I'd like looking into how exactly Syl manages her semi-hidden communication with Kaladin, and possible links between that and Shardic communication on Scadrial.

I like this thread.

also you might be able to get around the orientation problem by attaching the rubies to sticks with a spring on them, and have an attached plate for it to contact. Unless I misunderstand how the rubies move to each other, the setup could be face in any direction.

Thank you. I like it too.

Yeah, how exactly these fabrials work is the problem.

Right now, there are two real possibilities (that I can see) for how frame-of-reference works for Conjoined rubies:

1) "Down" is defined as pertains to the planet, with movements translated between the two frames of reference based on that different understanding of "down." So pen A on the pole and pen B on the equator will both move towards and away from their own "ground" when one is lowered or lifted.

2) "Down" is defined as pertains to the initial orientation of the ruby. When the ruby is split in half to create a Conjoiner, each half behaves as if it is still attached to the other. So pen A has the "cut" side facing up and pen B has the "cut" side facing down, if you're doing it right. For an amethyst (reverser), it would then be that both face the same way.

You'd also have to make sure that the rest of the orientation of the gem is suitably mirrored (so that left for A doesn't become "a bit right" for pen B ), so that the horizontal axis could be properly defined.

Number 2 (which is different from what I espoused a few posts ago) works much more "mechanically," and I would be very inclined towards it if we hadn't recently had the strength of the Cognitive Realm beat over our heads. Despite that, I still like it more than 1, especially since just "down" doesn't address any other axes.

If Option 2 takes the day, then there's a lot less problems of mobility. Theoretically, you could have one of your spanreeds writing upside down, and besides some odd forces on the other end (from gravity going the wrong way for the other spanreed you're moving), it would work perfectly.

So yes, if the second option is how Conjoiners work, then you're system would work, Emeralis00. I had originally proposed a gyroscope to keep the receiving key level, but I suppose a spring on a stick would work just as well .

Edited January 6, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Emeralis00 she/her]

Right now, there are two real possibilities (that I can see) for how frame-of-reference works for Conjoined rubies:

1) "Down" is defined as pertains to the planet, with movements translated between the two frames of reference based on that different understanding of "down." So pen A on the pole and pen B on the equator will both move towards and away from their own "ground" when one is lowered or lifted.

2) "Down" is defined as pertains to the initial orientation of the ruby. When the ruby is split in half to create a Conjoiner, each half behaves as if it is still attached to the other. So pen A has the "cut" side facing up and pen B has the "cut" side facing down, if you're doing it right. For an amethyst (reverser), it would then be that both face the same way.

You'd also have to make sure that the rest of the orientation of the gem is suitably mirrored (so that left for A doesn't become "a bit righting" for pen B"), so that the horizontal axis could be properly defined.

Number 2 (which is different from what I espoused a few posts ago) one works much more "mechanically," and I would be very inclined towards it if we hadn't recently had the strength of the Cognitive Realm beat over our heads. Despite that, I still like it more than 1, especially since just "down" doesn't address any other axes.

If Option 2 takes the day, then there's a lot less problems of mobility. Theoretically, you could have one of your spanreeds writing upside down, and besides some odd forces on the other end (from gravity going the wrong way for the other spanreed you're moving), it would work perfectly.

I believe it to be number 2 as well, based off of having seen only number 2 in stories. Although this is Brandon we are talking about...

So yes, if the second option is how Conjoiners work, then you're system would work, Emeralis00. I had originally proposed a gyroscope to keep the receiving key level, but I suppose a spring on a stick would work just as well

Simple is better. I can build a spring on a stick, but not a gyroscope.

[Phantom Monstrosity]

After all, gems are just quartz with bits of metal in it

Speaking as a jeweler? No, they really aren't.

I actually am seriously doubting that the 'rubies' uses are actually rubies as well. Sanderson is very good at managing little details, and having sapphires and rubies do different things in the same magic system is extremely sloppy.

I suspect they're actually spinel - the great imposter of the gemstone world. Many of greatest rubies of history turned out to be spinels in retrospect.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Speaking as a jeweler? No, they really aren't.

I actually am seriously doubting that the 'rubies' uses are actually rubies as well. Sanderson is very good at managing little details, and having sapphires and rubies do different things in the same magic system is extremely sloppy.

I suspect they're actually spinel - the great imposter of the gemstone world. Many of greatest rubies of history turned out to be spinels in retrospect.

Speaking as a non-jeweler, there is a large chance that Brandon doesn't actually know the nitty-gritty of gem composition. If it truly is just absurd for rubies and sapphires to be treated differently, you might want to Tweet Brandon or PM Peter or something, to see to it that some reference to "real" rubies be made if the characters ever get into studying the composition of stormlight-holding gems.

Regardless, thanks for the information . Always good to learn something new.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Kurkistan