Spren as Forms *TES Spoilers*

[Kurkistan he/him]

So far as Hessina's description goes, you may want to give her a bit more credit. I'm fairly sure that "spren" is being used interchangeably with "cognitive aspect" or maybe "soul" when Hessina is talking to Tien. Hessina does a fair job describing cognitive aspects, but just calls them spren. As Brandon said in the poopspren quote above, "Well, it depends on how you're defining spren. In the books, they don't make a distinction, but there are several varieties. At the basic level, everything has an identity--a soul, you might say, but more than that." So you might say that our definition of "spren" is simply more narrow (albeit more accurate and useful, probably) than hers.

[The Rooster he/him]

We can see at least some of this happening in TES with how Forging works, but particularly with what happens when you Forge simple objects, like Shai's stained glass window. In her discussion with Gaotona:

 

Spren, then, seem to represent these self-same forms (the Forms of Fire, Wind, Pain, Fear, Gravity, Ale...). The question, then, is whether spren are Cognitive beings (as most people have assumed, I think) that access Spiritual Forms or if they are mostly just Spiritual beings.

If spren are Spiritual in nature, then it would lend credence to Windrunner's idea of Spiritual/Physical overlap giving rise to the Cognitive Realm, especially when paired with Syl's inability to think in the Physical Realm without her bond with Kaladin.

 

 The true nature of spren is, I think, a very interesting question that could lend itself to alot of the high level theorizing going on right now.  Issues like creating and Honorblade or Shardblade, the differences between Honorblades and Shardblades, the bonidng of Syl and Kaladin and now (*spoiler for WOR*)

parshendi utilizing spren for form manipulation

,  could all hinge on a better explanation or fundamental understanding of what exactly a spren IS.  This post was buried in the forums but I think its an essential conversation. 

 

I'm really liking the theory that they are a manifestation in the physical realm of the edit *cognitive* spiritual nature of inanimate concepts and objects. I think it makes alot of sense.

Edited June 6, 2013 by agrooster

[Leuthie]

It seems more like they're shadows of Cognitive entities that find their way into people's perceptions under the right circumstances. Further, certain actions (honorable actions, creative actions, songs/rhythms, symmetry, measurement) allow Physical entities to align themselves with these Cognitive entities, giving the Physical entities certain Cognitive powers and the Cognitive entities Physical form.

[The Rooster he/him]

It seems more like they're shadows of Cognitive entities that find their way into people's perceptions under the right circumstances. Further, certain actions (honorable actions, creative actions, songs/rhythms, symmetry, measurement) allow Physical entities to align themselves with these Cognitive entities, giving the Physical entities certain Cognitive powers and the Cognitive entities Physical form.

Nice, this explains the flame measurement experiment. They exist because they are perceived. Very Schrodinger's Cat (that should have been obvious since that scene plays out like day one of a physical chemistry course)..

Edited June 7, 2013 by agrooster

[Kurkistan he/him]

Nice to see the old thread back in action, I'm glad some more people like it.

 

I agree with Agrooster that spren may well give us some deep insights into Realmatics. Once again, I may or may not have posted a thread or two about Forms in particular, if anyone is interested.

 

So far as perceptions go, I think Leuthie is on the right track. It's up in the air, since Brandon RAFO'd it, but spren may well be vampires not be "in" the Physical Realm properly, and might only be "seen" by people as a consequence of their Cognitive presence. I do think that spren of various kinds are actually actively attracted to events and locations, though, rather than being ever-present but simply unseen. A man who hasn't the least reason to be afraid or suspect infection can still see Fear- and Rot-spren gathering about another.

 

Obviously there are some exceptions (Death, Ale), but I think that spren are at the very least simply empowered or enlivened by local conditions into becoming visible to properly attuned individuals, rather than being present in their full glory at all times but simply unseen.

 

Btw, some new information on spren: "Spren are created by the perceptions of men." That's in line with what we know/theorize so far, but I just thought all the evidence should be in one place.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Leuthie]

With further thought: Spren aren't independent entities. They are actually an aspect of what they represent

[Kurkistan he/him]

An aspect of their Forms? I doubt that, since they are supposed to be "of" Honor and/or Cultivation (depending on the Spren) and are Honory-enough to serve as "release valves" for his power after Tanavast dies. That demands some degree of independence.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Leuthie]

It demands a system that takes Shardic power and uses it to give the Cognitive aspects of things more power/freedom/independence.

How about: Cognitive aspects of Spiritual forms created by actions, beliefs, concepts, etc. They aren't actualized because actualization requires all three Realms. They only exist in two. By bonding with an entity that has a Physical aspect abd is attuned to the action, belief, concept they represent, the Spren can actualize, becoming visible to the Physical, interacting with the Physical, even passing on certain powers to he Physical.

[Kurkistan he/him]

The Shards only coming in to give the juice doesn't seem plausible because there are a finite number of spren in any given area: fear spren are attracted to the most fearful, even if everyone in the group is afraid enough that they would normally attract one, if alone. On top of that, there would be little reason to distinguish between Cultivation and Honor, Cultivation, and Honor as the source of different spren if all that any of them needed was raw power.

 

The lack of spren in Shinovar (most likely) tells us that they need Stormlight to be visible, at the least, and Stormlight seems to be rather uniform in its composition, so it seems that Cultivation and Honor's diversified influence on different spren can only be expressed in terms of those sprens' innate composition, rather than their fuel source.

 

As to your second paragraph: That's an intriguing idea, and might even be a workable and interesting system, but I don't think it's what we see in "actuality." Glory, Death, Intoxication, Creation, and Logic (and many more like them) all have their own spren, and are all rather abstract entities. Yes, Glory is founded in actions and behaviors in the Physical Realm, but it really is all a matter of (Cognitive) perception, when you get down to it. Same with Beauty. This suggests that spren could just sit pretty in only the Cognitive and Spiritual and still be perfectly perceivable.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Kurkistan he/him]

UPDATE/NECRO:
 
Some very interesting stuff from WoR:
 

“I…” Shallan looked up at a pair of windspren spinning through the air above. They looked like tiny ribbons of light, glowing softly, dancing around one another. “[spren are] living ideas.”

Jasnah spun on her.

“What?” Shallan said, jumping. “Am I wrong?”

“No,” Jasnah said. “You’re right.” The woman narrowed her eyes. “By my best guess, spren are elements of the Cognitive Realm that have leaked into the physical world. They’re concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention.

“Think of a man who gets angry often. Think of how his friends and family might start referring to that anger as a beast, as a thing that possesses him, as something external to him. Humans personify. We speak of the wind as if it has a will of its own.

“Spren are those ideas—the ideas of collective human experience— somehow come alive. Shadesmar is where that first happens, and it is their place. Though we created it, they shaped it. They live there; they rule there, within their own cities.”

 

“Cities?”

 

“Yes,” Jasnah said, looking back out over the ocean. She seemed troubled. “Spren are wild in their variety. Some are as clever as humans and create cities. Others are like fish and simply swim in the currents.”

 
So I think I'll just crack open a bottle of champagne here.
 
Beyond patting myself (mightily) on the back,:  So spren come to life in the Cognitive. I'm (obviously, since I'm highly biased) going to hazard that the "ideas of collective human experience" that they're based on have their non-alive existence in the Spiritual as Forms, then.
 
This passage also locks in spren as our illusive "mostly Cognitive beings".

Edited January 8, 2014 by Kurkistan

[Natans he/him]

Congratulations, you are mostly corrrect =)

 

Could you give me a glass of the alluded champagne

[Kurkistan he/him]

@Natans

 

Sorry, already drank it all several months ago.

 

UPDATE:

 

I neglected to update at the time because I'm lazy, so here's our confirmation.

 

Source:

Kurkistan: Are flamespren, are they all doing their own thing, or is there some Ideal of "Fire" sitting in the Spiritual Realm that they're all based on?

Brandon: Each spren is based on the Ideal of Fire.

Kurkistan: And is that sitting in the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon: Yes, we're using sort of a Platonic Ideal, and that concept is in force, so <sounds hesitant> "yes", but [spren] are manifestations of it.

 

I'd like to note (from my own impressions) that the "hesitance" was likely a matter of Brandon wanting to be sure I didn't walk away thinking that spren were these Spiritual Ideals.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Kurkistan