Farewell for 2 years!

[Zas678 he/him]

Hello,

I am turning my spikes in for two years, in for a namebadge from a different organization.

As many of you have heard by now, I will be gone in a week for quite a while. 2 years actually. What will I be doing for those two years? Why one of the best things I could be doing: serving a proselyting mission for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons as we're sometimes called). So knocking on doors, talking to people on the street, and calling up references we get, then teaching people about the church, hoping that they choose to be baptized and join the church.

<Warning: Churchiness and religion incoming! >

Now why am I doing this? Easy. Because I feel like the Lord, both personally and through his prophet, has told me that he wants me to go on a mission. It's my way to help further His work, and I'm really excited to do it. There's a scripture story that also really helped me to go. Let me give a little background though, so it makes sense.

We (the Church) believe that the Book of Mormon is a record of the Israelite people in the ancient Americas, and God's interaction with them.

But anyways, Alma was the Chief Judge (the head of their elected government) of the Nephite people. He saw that the Nephite people were being wicked, and so he stepped down from being the Chief Judge, gave it to someone else who was worthy, and went forth and taught the gospel. Why? Because he knew that teaching the gospel was the way that he could most change the people.

With an example like that, how could I not go?

I want to bear my testimony that I know this church is true. I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet, a seer, and a revelator. I know that the Book of Mormon is revelation from God, saved for us in these last days. I know that Thomas S. Monson is our prophet today and is inspired of God to lead His church. I know that my Savior, Jesus Christ died for me, and that he was resurrected and still lives. Because of him, I can hope to live forever with him and Heavenly Father, being clean and pure.

I know that going on my mission for 2 years to serve the people in Arequipa, Peru (where a temple was just announced!) is the right thing to do, and that I will learn and grow an enormous amount. The Lord has called me on a mission, and I must go.

If you want to know more about the church, please check out mormon.org . If you want, you can chat with missionaries online and ask them questions.

</ Churchiness>

With that, I wish all of you here at 17th Shard farewell. I'll have a blog on here that my Mom will post my weekly emails onto. It's been a fun ride, and I can't wait to read and talk about Stormlight 2 when I get back. Theories? Random Guesses? Hemalurgy? Fantastic. Farewell! Au Rervoir! See you all later.

Zas678/ Zach S.

October 11th, 2012

PS- I'll still be around for a week. I'll probably be able to make a few more comments but I'm mostly done now. Also, for more information on missionaries, Elder Russel M Nelson just gave an excellent talk about them. Here it is. And yes, we can help!

EDIT- And if anyone wants to ask questions about the church, I can do my best to answer them. But please no "Why do you follow a church that's so blatantly wrong"esqe questions. Curious questions, not angry ones.

[Zenith]

Good luck. Can you tell me where you're going?

[Yamato]

Wow thats really cool. Its always great to go new places and meet new people. Kudos for doing something you believe in! I may be an atheist, but I appreciate sincerity beyond any other trait, and it seems like you have that in spades.

I think it's cool you're answering questions about the LDS church, because I have a few that always felt uncomfortable about asking. Brandon's openness on the subject finally reassured me that it was safe to ask. I will only ask a question if I want an answer. I am very sorry If it sounds accusatory.

1. Why does the LDS church have the stance it does on gays? I know the stance, but I'm a little bit confused as to where it comes from. The LDs people I have met have been very kind, compassionate, and understanding people, so it seems ... shocking to me that this kind of discrimination exists in an organization that encourages understanding.

2. How do you feel about gays? I know some LDS people, and while the vast majority take the church's stance, some have repudiated the church's position on moral grounds, saying that it's not moral to discriminate. I'm curious to know how you feel, because it seems to me that promoting equality and discrimination at the same time is a contradiction. (again, not meant to be accusatory, so sorry if this is.)

Before I close, let me just say that I have found something to admire in all world religions, and don't mean to discriminate against religion in any way shape or form. It's just distressing to me that religion is promoting anti-gay legislation. I know tons of gays, and they are people just like us. They love, and so they want to marry. Dosent the bible promote all forms of love? I really want to hear your response. I'll be frank, the Mormon position is profoundly upsetting to me, and many that I know and love. I want to have another perspective on this, so I don't develop opinions about people without hearing their point of view. I understand if you're too busy to respond.

[Tamzin Ashevai she/her]

I'm happy for you, Zas678/ZackS, that you're doing something for yourself and for that in which you wholeheartedly believe. While you and I may not know one another here, I'm confident that you'll be missed within 17th Shard. I hope your years away will be productive ones in just the ways in which you want them to be. Good health and safety on your journey and good fortune on your quest.

[Eerongal he/him]

Good luck, Zas, have fun, etc. etc.! See you in a few years! Hope you enjoy it!

[Sweetness she/her]

We will miss you Zas!

Make sure you stop by the chat before you leave for two years worth of <3's and tackles!

<3<3<3<3<3<3

[Yados]

Good luck! I don't know if I agree with your worldview but I respect a man of ideals with integrity even if I don't agree with them.

[Windrunner he/him]

We'll miss you Zach! It's not going to be the same while you're gone but I'll try to do my best acting as Substitute Quoter Extraordinaire Have fun, serve your faith proudly, stay safe, and come back soon.

[Zas678 he/him]

Thanks guys! I am going to the Arequipa, Peru mission.

And Yamato, your questions aren't offensive, so don't worry about it.

1. Why does the LDS church have the stance it does on gays? I know the stance, but I'm a little bit confused as to where it comes from. The LDs people I have met have been very kind, compassionate, and understanding people, so it seems ... shocking to me that this kind of discrimination exists in an organization that encourages understanding.

Well, first off, let's just make sure that the church's position is clear on gays. The LDS Church believes that any sexual actions outside the bonds of marriage between a man and wife are immoral. We see marriage as a sacred ordinance ordained by God, and that one of the responsibilities of marriage is to "multiply and replenish the earth". You can't really have that with a gay (or lesbian) marriage. So this means that the Church opposes same-gender marriage, because we believe that it brings more harm than good (even if that harm may not be fully realized until the next life).

A member can have same-gender attraction and still be a full member of the Church, as long as he doesn't act on that attraction. Just like if I was married, but I kept having attraction to women that I wasn't married to, I shouldn't act on those attractions. And I guess when I say "full member" it depends. There are certain positions in the church you can only hold if you're married, for example.

As for why we have this stance? Because we either truly believe that same-sex relationships (just like sexual relationships outside of marriage), will make you worse off than before. Again, this may not be realized until the next life, but we believe it will be realized. Also because we believe that children every child deserves a mother and a father, and same-gender marriages means same-gender parents for adoptions.

Here is a discussion on what the church's position is on same-gender attraction.

2. How do you feel about gays? I know some LDS people, and while the vast majority take the church's stance, some have repudiated the church's position on moral grounds, saying that it's not moral to discriminate. I'm curious to know how you feel, because it seems to me that promoting equality and discrimination at the same time is a contradiction. (again, not meant to be accusatory, so sorry if this is.)

Well, I guess it depends on what you mean. I have a gay friend or two. I know there's many gay people out there that are fantastic people. But would I vote to make gay marriage legal? Probably not.

I'm still debating over a civil union that has some benefits of marriage. If I had to vote tomorrow about it though, I would probably say yes to a legal bond that gives you things like hospital visitation rites, inheritance, etc. But probably not adoption rights. That's too far for me. But that's subject to change. I'm still mulling it over.

So there's my opinions. If you want another though, here's one from a male member who has same-sex attraction but who is married to his wife and has 4 kids (a solution that definitely won't work for everyone).

I hope this helped you understand our position a little better. If there's anything else you want me to clarify, go ahead and ask, and I'll do my best [to answer] before I leave.

EDIT- I accidentally forgot a word.

[Yamato]

Hi zas, thank you for answering in an open and honest way. Polite discourse between groups that differ is a far more healthy way to resolve differences than the "I am more moral than you!" bullcrap that keeps cropping up. Here is my response. I've heard these arguments before, so I know exactly how I feel about them.

I am perfectly ok with gay people that feel like their feelings are a sin. That is their choice, and I wont insult hem and you by saying that they should all the sudden act on their instincts. I hear your argument that marriage between a man and a woman is the only way to grow the population, but aren't we suffering from a population overburdening crisis in the world right now anyway? It seems to me that this argument can only refer to increasing the number of Mormon people, in which case it does not apply since the church does not accept gay marriage.

I have a bit of a dilemma. On one hand, I want to promote polite discourse between those who disagree. On the other hand, if I accept your arguments as having merit, then I have to give up having a chance to exercise mine. This may sound stupid, but keep reading, I have an example. A good instance of a situation like this is slavery in the U.S in antebellum times. The North accepted southern sentiments about slavery, which prevented it from being abolished, because by accepting their stance as having merit, it meant that they could not free the slaves, since southerners unequivocally did not accept freeing the slaves. They could not free the slaves until they completely disregarded the opinions of the southerners, because accepting southerners opinions made it so that slaves could not be freed.

Maybe you understand my position better now. How would you feel If a large group, let's say, atheists of america. suddenly said "we think Mormons are great people and all, but we believe that allowing Mormon marriage is not moral, since we need a separation of church and state" then contributed huge amounts of money to pass legislation against mormon marriage and then succeeded in enacting highly discriminatory measures against mormon marriage, making it so mormon marriage was not recognized by law. How would you feel? Probably similar to how the gays feel now, suffering under a bunch of discriminatory legislature that they see as being enacted with a huge amount of mormon money.

There. Thats my position. What I still don't get, is why the church just does not accept that Mormon marriage and marriage between people outside of the church are 2 different things. Marriage is by definition in our society a state undertaking. Furthermore, I don't get why Mormons think that civil unions will be enough for gays. You should be the ones that understand the fact that marriage has a connotation of permeance, of respectability, of love. You don't say to people "Oh, im in civil union with..." that just sounds silly. Saying you are married is a powerful indicator of a couple's love and respect for each other.

To the arguments that having sex outside of marriage is a sin... this is one of the biggest reason I am an atheist. There are going to be about 5 or 6 billion sinners if you believe in this. Ok, maybe not that much, but a HELL of a lot. I just cannot accept an institution that condemns a large group for such silly reasons. In my opinion, morality should not be dependent on something g that, many times, does not change the moral fiber of a person. Sure, if they become a womanizer or a rampant sex fiend, I have no problem with a sentence in hell. But many people re pulled into stuff like that because of their socio-economic class. It seems to me that by this argument you are consigning gays to hell, because they sure aren't going to give up having sex no matter what, and you aren't allowing them to embark on this sacred contract.

Thats it for this post. I may be an angry Liberal who believes in a morality that makes me opposed to this stance, but I also believe that I have much to gain from being open. Too many on both sides make the mistake of being stupid about their beliefs. I sure as hell respect your right to have that stance. However, there is no way I will ever respect your right to enforce your opinions on others. Just like you would not respect someone who opposed the legality of Mormon marriage, I do not respect anyones's right to impose on the sacred rights of humanity, no matter how earnest they are in doing it. My position is in no way an angry crusade against religion. I would fight just as hard for you and your church if anyone decided to take their prejudice against mormons into the realm of legislative action. Before anyone asks, I am not gay. However, I live next to gay people, I have gay friends, and i live in a community that has been perhaps the most tolerant in the U.S. Please, everyone who may happen to not want to allow gay marriage, ask yourself how you would feel if someone was prejudiced against you for something that you cannot change about yourself. The answer is: confused, angry, upset, afraid, indignant, and pissed off. Thank you zas, for doing this. Many would not be as accommodating. This post probably sounds a little more accusatory that the other, so sorry about that.

[Rubix he/him]

Hey Yamato,

Believe it or not, there are some angry liberal Mormons, and I'm one of them. I don't think that the LDS church had any business getting involved in politics as they did at all. Yes, I think that sex outside of marriage is wrong, but if I'm not the one doing it, I honestly don't think that it's any of my business at all. I understand that you disagree with it being considered morally wrong, but to say that it's any one institution is to ignore all those with no faith who still think that sharing themselves in that way should be saved until they're married.

As for the main point, I definitely think that gays should be allowed to marry. I have no issues with that because once again, it doesn't affect me at all, and gays being able to marry isn't going to destroy my marriage, so it's none of my business.

I guess my point is just: please don't generalize groups of people, because not everyone in a given group of people will feel the same way. Just as not all atheists hate everyone who is religious, not all people who are religious think that gays should have no rights.

[Yamato]

Im very sorry if I seemed to be generalizing in any way. It's all too easy to do that, and I don't mean to be doing it in any way. I meant to say angry liberal in a self deprecating way, to say, even though im a little crazy, i want to have a reasonable discussion. Again, sorry if I offended in any way. I know TONS of religious people who support gay rights (including most of my extended family), so I didn't mean to sound that way.

Whoops, forgot something. The thing about sex outside of marriage considered morally wrong, I don't really care. I just don't want people to think that they are screwed after death just because of a mistake they made. I personally think that sex without commitment is not advisable, but I just don't want to enforce any of my opinions, or any of someone else's.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Yamato

[KChan she/her]

There are going to be about 5 or 6 billion sinners if you believe in this. Ok, maybe not that much, but a HELL of a lot.

Technically, the Bible teaches that we are all sinners, and that it is the grace of a kind and loving God that saves us. It teaches that that sin is the reason we need Him, and it also teaches that this is one of the many reasons we're not to judge other people. We've all made mistakes; we've all made wrong choices at some point in our lives, and we will again. We're humans, that's what we do. But just because one person's sin is different than mine doesn't give me any right to judge or look down on them in any way. I'm far from perfect, so who am I to judge someone else?

That said, I know you were talking about the LDS church specifically, but there are Christians out there who believe there is nothing wrong with being gay (or bi, or transgendered, etc); I happen to be one of them. It all depends on how you interpret scripture, and what your own conscience tells you. We all interpret these things very differently; that's why we have different worldviews in the first place.

No matter what each individual believes, though, the most important thing to remember - in my own opinion - is what Jesus Christ himself said: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Mark 12:31) Not just our straight neighbors, not just our Christian neighbors, not just the people we like. Everyone. In the end, I think that's really all that matters.

[Zenith]

I really don't want to escalate this argument, but I feel the need to change a little of Yamato's statement:

LDS people do not believe in all of the "If you are not good/do a bad sin, whatever, you will have a horrible afterlife, etc", in fact, we believe that to get a place like that, you would have had to (IIRC, may not be 100% accurate, correct me if it's not) have known Christ to be the son of god or known god exists without a doubt and rejected him. Only a handful of people would actually fit that description. We believe that there are three levels of glory you can obtain:

Celestial kingdom: Highest level of glory. Needed to be baptized/under 8 (those under 8 are not accountable for their sins yet), be really good in this life, repented, tried your best, etc.

Terrestial kingdom: Second degree of glory. In general being a good person and whatnot. Many gay marriages, atheists, and others who have stances against what the LDS church believes may end up here (if they are good people).

Telestial kingdom: Last degree of glory. Those who were bad/didn't care/whatever other reason go here. It is 10X better than Earth.

We also believe that before the judgement there will be a time for those who did not have a chance to get the gospel in life may be taught it and receive it if they choose. This part I don't know exactly how it works (I mean, if there was only one church teaching wouldn't someone catch on to it? I just don't know.)

Anyway, we are far from condemning those to a horrible afterlife if they don't believe, just as we don't say everyone who believes is in an amazing state. It depends on the kind of person you are and how you act.

Anyway, I didn't mean for that to become a text wall. If this isn't your opinion, I am really sorry, I misunderstood.

So, continue.

[Chaos he/him]

I'm not going to step into the religious discussion here, because this is Zach's farewell topic. All I want to say is that I'm going to really miss you, man, and I hope you have an awesome, spiritual time

[Yamato]

You make a very good point KChan. Man, am I accidentally making people angry again? I seem to have a real talent for that. Sigh... That said, the concept, of humanity being all sinners, is why I am not a member of an Abraharamic (wow I fail at spelling) religion. It's why I love Japanese culture and religion, because Shinto and Buddhism, teach about the inherent goodness of mankind. It makes me upset to hear about something that immediately makes everyone out to be inherently sinful UNLESS they believe in a certain thing.

That said, Jesus is one of the people I admire most (along with the Buddha and others). I do indeed believe in "Loving thy neighbor as thyself" but I don't believe it as a divine ordination , I believe it because Humanity should always seek to better itself. I'm very very very very very very very very very very very sorry if it seems like I'm saying "grrr all religious christians are bigots" because i'm not, or at least i'm not meaning to. Some of the people I love most in the world are deeply, devoutly Christian (My grandparents, 6 of my aunts and uncles, 7 of my cousins) and all of them are HIGHLY pro gay. Like reeeeeeeeaaallly pro gay.

Religion is like all human institutions. It has it's good times and it's bad times. However, since religion is so huge, it's good times are extraordinary, and it's bad times are hellish. It's what makes religion so frustrating for people like me, who just can't forget the bad stuff. My frustration sometimes comes out when discussing issues that I perceive as being hampered by religion, because I know of the great things that It can do, and it makes me angry that it squanders it's time and resources on something like this, when it could be doing a whole world of good by leaving it alone, or even promoting it. I am in no way meaning to diss religion. Please tell me if you think i'me being an as*, because a lot of the time I have no idea about it when discussing topics like this.

Dammit.... I just wrote another thing about how frustrated I am with religion. And I wonder why I piss people off... I really do want people to understand tho.

Double dammit. I just turned zas's goodbye thread into a rant. I'm so sorry zas, have a great trip, try and see some inca ruins. Peru is supposed to be unbelievably beautiful.

Edit: Thanks for clarification Zenith. That makes me feel a lot better. Still want gay marriage tho.

Chaos you are so right, Im gonna shut up now.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Yamato