The Knights Radiant

[Arondell]

Now admittedly, we don't know if this is even possible.  But it might help explain that odd scene in which Jasnah deliberately sets herself up as bait for a group of thugs.  If she's bonded with a death spren, then that scene isn't Jasnah deciding to play vigilante for the sake of being a vigilante.  Rather, she needs deaths to maintain the bond with her spren, and the only way that she can do that in any sense that's even remotely ethical is through setting herself up as bait for a group of criminals...  at which point she can kill them and legitimately claim self defense.

 

Based on her actions so far I have, tentatively, associated Jasnah with the order that corresponds to "Just / Confident".   Her killing the attackers in the alley would fit with that since she knew they had already assaulted and/or killed prior victims and that the local law enforcement had probably been bribed to look the other way.  Also Jasnah certainly doesn't lack for confidence.

 

Would such a focus of intent be associated with death spren?  It seems unlikely but then again how likely would a spren associated with protection/leadership be to resemble a wind spren?

[Miyabi he/him]

I believe that every one of the KR had an Honorspren as well as a secondary Spren. This could be supported by the Ideals. Everyone has the same first Ideal:

"Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination."

Life before death

The Radiant seeks to defend life, always. He never kills unnecessarily, and never risks his own life for frivolous reasons. Living is harder than dying. The Radiant’s duty is to live.

Strength before weakness

All men are weak at some time in their lives. The Radiant protects those who are weak, and uses his strength for others. Strength does not make one capable of rule; it makes one capable of service.

Journey before destination

There are always several ways to achieve a goal. Failure is preferable to winning through unjust means. Protecting ten innocents is not worth killing one. In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished.

This is an extremely honorable quality to have. Now as we've seen with other people, a Nahel Bond with an Honorspren isn't required to make other Bonds. Though in order to gain the Powers which are granted to the KR through their advancement in their Ideals you must first make an Oath to the First Ideal, which is impossible without an Honorspren. This creates a direct link between the KR and Honor.

The other 4 Ideals would be things determined by the other Spren with which they have bonded. The important thing is to be connected to Honor in order to have a more direct link to his power.

Now Nohadon speaks of not all Spren being as discerning. The VB would have needed a base for their Surgebinding abilities and a way to access larger amounts of power. Perhaps the Voidspren we saw in the sample chapter could create a similar Bond as an Honorspren that instead creates a connection with Odium and allowed the Unmade and the VB to access Surgebinding powers with the same strength as the KR.

I feel like a primary connection to one of the two is necessary to go past the first level or so of Surgebinding of any kind. So let's say that Shallan gains a Bond with an Honorspren, but Jasnah doesn't, it wouldn't be too long before the Soulcasting abilities Shallan gains would outscale those of Jasnah's by miles and miles. The other bond, which would allow connection to Odium would cause a similar effect as to someone who is not connected at all to either of said forces.

Perhaps another type of Spren could also be used to connect to Cultivation? I'm not sure, I guess that would depend on whether or not Cultivation wanted to be a part of the fight between the two. Though the histories only talk about two factions so I am inclined to believe that isn't possible.

This could also help to explain the names "Knights Radiant" radiate the light of Honor and purity and the "Voidbringers" are focused on causing hatred and demise, which are generally thought of as dark bottomless emotions, like a Void.

EDIT:: There could also be an additional case here in which a person is only Bonded to an Honor or a Void Spren and instead of having two semi-weak bonds, they would have one HUGE Bond. Which could be what make the Unmade and the Heralds who they are, because they have this overwhelmingly strong Bonds to their respective Shards.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Miyabi

[Gloom he/him]

This doesn't explain Kaladin. Sylphrena has already stated that he is a Wind Runner. He only has a single spren bond, and he is on the second ideal.

[Miyabi he/him]

This doesn't explain Kaladin. Sylphrena has already stated that he is a Wind Runner. He only has a single spren bond, and he is on the second ideal.

I didn't explicitly state an explanation, but it was inferred. There are a few options which may describe this:

1. Kal could be Binding to a Spren which he can not yet see, but Syl can, and thus she knows which Order he would belong to.

2. Kal is someone who would bind only to an Honorspren, forging an extremely strong connection with Honor.

3. Perhaps one must gain some credence within the Order in which they are going to become a part of before this second Spren appears, so maybe he won't see or this Spren won't be around until he makes it to the Third or Fourth Ideal.

4. Perhaps the type of Spren which makes him a Windrunner is either too small to see or can't be seen. This could be one way to describe why Szeth can use Windrunner like abilities, but can see no Spren. Even though Syl states that she is the one that Binds, perhaps she isn't talking about Lashing, but rather talking about Binding him to Honor as well as another Spren, and subsequently one of the Orders.

One of these things is most likely what a Windrunner is, but until we get more information from the next book we won't know.

[Shardlet he/him]

I think you are locked into the idea that all spren which form Nahel bonds are honorspren.  I doubt that this is the case.  I also think the Nohadon vision strongly suggests otherwise.  I think most people fall into this because of the correlation between Honor (speaking of the Shard) and and honorspren.  Frequently, a number of us have capitalized honorspren.  However, in the book, honorspren is not capitalized when either Nohadon or Syl use the term.  This suggests to me a tie to an attribute rather than a particularly significant tie to Honor (for clarification, I theorize that all spren are splinters of Honor and/or Cultivation and sentient/bonding spren are voluntary splinters while non-sentient/non-bonding spren are the result of Honor being shattered).  

[Miyabi he/him]

I think you are locked into the idea that all spren which form Nahel bonds are honorspren.  I doubt that this is the case.  I also think the Nohadon vision strongly suggests otherwise.  I think most people fall into this because of the correlation between Honor (speaking of the Shard) and and honorspren.  Frequently, a number of us have capitalized honorspren.  However, in the book, honorspren is not capitalized when either Nohadon or Syl use the term.  This suggests to me a tie to an attribute rather than a particularly significant tie to Honor (for clarification, I theorize that all spren are splinters of Honor and/or Cultivation and sentient/bonding spren are voluntary splinters while non-sentient/non-bonding spren are the result of Honor being shattered).

I don't... I explicitly state a number of times that other Spren create the Bond as well. In my post two posts up I state that I think most people who join the KR Bond to two Spren. An Honorspren and one which isn't an Honorspren. I even state that the Honorspren bond isn't even required in order to form other Bonds, but in order to move up the ranks and gain more power from Honor you have to be bound to either an Honorspren in order to create a strong Bond with Honor and be able to make the Oath to the first Ideal, or an Odium/Void/Whateveryouwanttocallitspren which would provide you a similar Bond to Odium in order to gain higher levels of power.

Take Shallan for example, she is Bound to a Spren which is not an Honorspren and has abilities which she can use. I don't deny that. Like I said above though, if Shallan formed a Bond with an Honorspren and was able to make the First Oath she would then be able to make the subsequent Oaths and become stronger with her Surgebinding. Then let's say Jasnah, only Bonds to her Cryptic and never forms a Bond with an Honorspren she would never be able to make the First Oath, and therefore never gain the level of power someone who has made both Bonds can attain.

I'm not sure if my original post was overly vague as to what I was trying to say or you missed a part of it, but I NEVER say that all Nahel Bonds are with Honorspren. Just that the Honorspren Bond is required in order to become a KR and speak the First Oath and form a connection with Honor. (Or an Odiumspren to similarly connect oneself to Odium.)

[Shardlet he/him]

Even so, it appears you are placing a very strong tie between honorspren (which I noticed that you capitalize every time) and Honor.  I personally haven't seen anything evidence yet to suggest that Kaladin  or any other KR is bonded to more than one spren.

 

As to Shallan, I have doubts about her bonding.  I suspect that her bond with the cryptic is a transient bond and not a Nahel bond.  The cryptic grants her passage to Shadesmar but is conspicuously absent once she is in Shadesmar and doesn't appear to participate in her soulcasting.  The nature of that spren bond is rather undescribed.

[Miyabi he/him]

The capitalization is just habit, NORMALLY Brandon capitalizes anything important. I don't think that Honorspren refers to a distinct form of Spren, but rather any Spren which has been Invested by Honor. My thought process in regards to two Spren is the fact that every KR has two abilities which define which Order they are in. I think that perhaps Honorspren don't have to be any particular type of Spren, but is a Spren which is Invested in by Honor in some way and that's what makes it an Honorspren. I highly doubt that someone will receive two separate Surges from one Spren. So it seems logical to me that two Spren are involved.

This is also somewhat supported by the thought that the Shardblades and Shardplate are potentially created from all the Oaths having been sworn and the Nahel Bonds becoming complete. This Bond, I feel, is probably the "missing thing" that is mentioned in regards to current Plate and Blade not having the same powers it used to.

I feel like Honorspren (capitalizing it again lol) are necessary (no matter what their base-form, whether it be Cryptic or Windspren etc.) in order to be able to commit to the First Ideal. It is ALL about Honor, so I feel that connection to Honor is required in order to truly be able to swear the Oath.

Simply being honest, artistic, or creative gives you no REAL reason to swear "Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before destination." So I strongly believe the connection to Honor is required. Perhaps in Shallan's case one of the Cryptics happens to be Invested by Honor which could make it an Honorspren as well as being a Cryptic.

I also believe that the Voidbringers are similar in this manner and this is what Nohadon is speaking about when talking about Spren which aren't as discerning as Honorspren. I believe these might be the Odiumspren, a Spren which has been in someway Invested or influenced by Odium, we saw in Dalinar's vision. I believe that a Bond would need to be formed with one of those Spren would be required to become a Voidbringer.

[Gloom he/him]

I respectfully disagree. I don't believe that their is any conclusive evidence to substantiate your theory. It's all smoke and shadows. Kaladin is the farthest along in his Nahel bond and Syl has not mentioned any additional spren bonds being required to become a wind runner. I might buy that there is going to be a second spren required specifically to create Shards, but this would also just be a guess, and I doubt it would be an active bond.

 

This idea that multiple spren are required to become a KR is attractive because we want a reason to believe that all KR are bound to Honor even if it is just through spren. What I've seen in reading of this book is more along the lines of the Wind Runners leading the KR. It was the Wind Runners that were the example, and that held the other orders up to a high standard. They are the order of Jezrian the Storm Father, they represent oaths, they represent nobility, they represent leadership. They were the binding force that held the KR together, and it was likely that they were the force that ended the orders.

 

I think there is already a high potential for conflict between spren and human as it is. The more personalities you add to the mix, the less likely it becomes that anyone would be able to maintain the Nahel bond.

 

Fortunately, this debate should be answered definitively in WoR.

[Miyabi he/him]

I literally just spent nearly an hour typing and found one quote which completely obliterates my theory on the use or need of two Spren. GAHELOINOIWJEWE

Scrap it. Throw my theory away.

[Maximus]

We know for sure that the top right is Windrunning so the two surges connected to it would be pressure and gravity.  Its speculated that the lower of the two is likely pressure as its connects to Nalan's symbol and his essense is Vapor.  here is a nice chart someone made up, its a bit old so new info may be out that i'm missing.  http://tinypic.com/r/2w6w9xt/5

Do you know where this information comes from or where it can be found?

[Shardlet he/him]

Here you go Maximus. 

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/3189-brandon-signing-120612/?hl=%2Bpressure+%2Bgravitation'>source

QUESTION: Mark
And so like the Windrunners, they’re just one Order of the Knights Radiant, aren’t they?

BRANDON
Yes they are, in fact they are- every order is a grouping of one of these [points to the large symbols on the Radiant tables] and two of these [points at the smaller symbols], these are the Surges. So these are the ten, sort of forces. And so Windrunning is pressure and gravitation, which are those two. But the Skybreakers are right there [points to gold symbol in the upper middle], with a different combination and each of these different groupings would make one order of the Knights Radiant. And that is the symbol of the Windrunners, right there on the cover. [Points at the swordgylph under the dust jacket]. So, fun little easter-egg type things there.

[Crysanja]

maybe the requirements to become a radiant will drop when it becomes known that the desolation is here.

[Gloom he/him]

maybe the requirements to become a radiant will drop when it becomes known that the desolation is here.

 

The magic system doesn't seem that flexible to me. I think it is more likely that more people will be motivated to meet the requirements to become a Radiant once those requirements become clear and following the codes is made mandatory.

 

I'm fairly certain that Kaladin is going to start openly surgebinding, at least amongst his bridge crew, and training them in the codes once he is exposed to TWoKs. I foresee a conversation between Kaladin and Dalinar early on about the codes and Radiants in which Kaladin reveals his abilities to Dalinar. I would be surprised if Szeth is the first person who attempts to assassinate Dalinar as well.

[Crysanja]

idk maybe Sly could speak/motivate other spren to bound with ppl.

usualy she has no reasons todo so, but i guess Odium winning the desolation would be bad for the spren too.