The Investiture-Challenged Awareness Society

[Left he/him]

I don't know where it is, but I remember the one he's talking about so there is at least double witnessing.

[Guest]

Aw, come on.

[skaa he/him]

Infusing a spike with mist was a popular theory back in 2013. I don't remember it being verified by WoB, but I'll to try to find it later if it does exist.

Edit: Here is the old thread discussing mist-Invested metals as the basis of Allomantic technology. It was Kadrok, I think, who first suggested that Hemalurgy might have a role in this. I don't see any update regarding a WoB, though.
 

Greetings fellow scholars, quite nice to have some friendly scientists around instead of just the DA and whatever magical science I merge together from ten different universes. I must admit got a little lost in your introduction post, what exactly is the "intent" of the guild? RP and theorizing at the same time? I'd love to run some mist based hemalurgical machines past you.

I made this thread to kind of test the waters, so to speak, to see if roleplaying is for me. My main problem with roleplaying is that I find the idea of giving oneself awesome superpowers (as most 17th Shard roleplayers do) to be sort of self-aggrandizing and distasteful, even if it's just pretend. The obvious solution is to roleplay as a non-powered character, but then how do you make a non-powered character interesting? The character I created, the rebel skaa who is a Science-lover, an Investiture scholar, and also a bit of a Marxist, is my attempt to answer that question.

 

I also invited Cosmere theorists to join this guild just in case my roleplaying adventures don't pan out, because theorizing is what I enjoy the most here in the forums. I want to surround myself with people who, like me, enjoy thinking a bit too much about Brandon's magic systems. That's also why I made Rule 2, by the way.

 

Basically, Rule 1 represents my dislike of typical 17th Shard roleplaying characters, while Rule 2 represents my love for Cosmere theorizing. Does that make sense?

 

As for what I think of Invested technology on Scadrial, you may check out my harmonium theory here.

Edited February 7, 2015 by skaa

[Screwloose]

I think you've got a pretty interesting character from what you've said. I also agree with you on the powers front, I've tried to keep Screwloose from being overpowered as much as possible- He doesn't have a prime invincibility and his powers rely more on how he applies them than brute strength. I'm not sure whether I've been successful or not but I do try. It'll definitely be interesting to see someone using their intelligence rather than raw power. Anyway back to science and theorizing:

 

How do people here feel about anti Hemalurgist weaponry? I've been theorizing for a while that metals that can't carry a charge could potentially block Hemalurgy if inserted into a bind point. Since I never managed to actually use one on a Hemalurgist i'd like opinions on whether the idea is viable and if so how many can I put you all down for? 

Edited February 7, 2015 by Screwloose

[skaa he/him]

How do people here feel about anti Hemalurgist weaponry? I've been theorizing for a while that metals that can't carry a charge could potentially block Hemalurgy if inserted into a bind point. Since I never managed to actually use one on a Hemalurgist i'd like opinions on whether the idea is viable and if so how many can I put you all down for? 

 

Sort of like an anti-linchpin spike? I think that's an awesome idea! If we hadn't already known that aluminum steals Allomantic Enhancement powers, it would have been the perfect candidate for such a spike. Lerasium also has a Hemalurgic purpose, so that's also out. My best guess would be harmonium, which (under my own theory) I don't think could carry Hemalurgic charges.

 

Edit: I just realized that you're referring to any metal that can't carry a charge. Interesting. If this was true, the Steel Inquisitors must have discovered it during their many Hemalurgic experiments, and must have therefore been known to the Lord Tyrant. Unfortunately, Rashek did not speak of such a technique in the Vetitan metal plate where he talked of the weakness of Hemalurgic creatures. Perhaps it's still possible, though.

Edited February 7, 2015 by skaa

[Screwloose]

I didn't actually consider that there might already be an Allomantic/ Hemalurgic metal with that effect. Since there are still metals with no known Hemalurgic purpose it might actually end up being that one of them exists purely to stop Hemalurgy, similar to how aluminium's only use is to nullify Allomancy.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Screwloose

[Shlee]

Your courage to take a stand against Hemalurgy impresses me, Shlee. Would you like to join the Society?

Perhaps. I am fond of theories, although all mine are currently incomplete due to lack of research time.

 

I don't role play however, but watching you guys do it can be entertaining.

Maybe I can be the conservationist voice for all the poor non-invested natural lifeforms on various planets. Is it really right to Awaken dead squirrels? What if they don't wish to be zombies and bite Returned? 

 

And I'd definitely be interested in anti-hemalurgic weaponry.......this evil power thieving must not be allowed to continue to spread!

[Lindel he/him]

Skaa, your proposed method of Scadrian Technology is interesting, but I have one issue with it.

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (20 OCTOBER 2008)
No, they're not dead. Yes, Rashek was aware of them. In fact, he placed them there as a reserve. I knew he wanted a 'control' group of people in case his changes to genetics ended with the race being in serious trouble. All I'll say is that he found a way other than changing them genetically to help them survive in the world he created. And since they were created by Ruin and Preservation, they have the seeds of the Three Metallic Arts in them—though without anyone among them having burned Lerasium, Allomancers would have been very rare in their population and full Mistborn unheard of.

(Emphasis mine) 
Link

If Allomancers are so rare, how could technology that requires an Allomancer to be present have become practical in their society?

Edited February 9, 2015 by Lindel

[Voidus]

Well I do personally enjoy the more scientific forms of Investiture rather than Surgbinding, Allomancy or Awakening but having eestablished my 17s persona so strongly in the DA I feel it would be too weird to be in this guild as a character but I might pop in from time to time with OOC comments.
 

 

I think you've got a pretty interesting character from what you've said. I also agree with you on the powers front, I've tried to keep Screwloose from being overpowered as much as possible- He doesn't have a prime invincibility and his powers rely more on how he applies them than brute strength. I'm not sure whether I've been successful or not but I do try. It'll definitely be interesting to see someone using their intelligence rather than raw power. Anyway back to science and theorizing:

 

How do people here feel about anti Hemalurgist weaponry? I've been theorizing for a while that metals that can't carry a charge could potentially block Hemalurgy if inserted into a bind point. Since I never managed to actually use one on a Hemalurgist i'd like opinions on whether the idea is viable and if so how many can I put you all down for? 

Problem being that it would probably require a specific bindpoint to block a specific spike, so not only would you need incredible accuracy in the midst of a fight in order to accurately hit the bindpoint you might also need to know specifically what spike they have, what it stole, and where it's placed and then ascertain how to block that spike. Perhaps one of the God metals could act as a universal anti-hemalurgy spike but even then you'd still need to precisely hit a bindpoint in the midst of combat.
Just ripping the spike out would be easier.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Voidus

[skaa he/him]

Skaa, your purposes method of Scadrian Technology is interesting, but I have one issue with it.

(Emphasis mine)

Link

If Allomancers are so rare, how could technology that requires an Allomancer to be present have become practical in their society?

My theoretical Allomantic technology doesn't require an Allomancer to be present. One simply needs to have harmonium (which I've theorized is just purple gold, an aluminum-gold intermetallic).

 

Here's the WoB that Southern Scadrians access the Metallic Arts via technology:

NEPENE

You've said you want to write a book set in the southern continent. I did enjoy The Emperor's Soul a lot, so I am curious about you writing that future book. How do they use magic differently, and why should we be excited about reading a book set there?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

The southern continent is where people have discovered how to harness the metallurgic arts in a more mechanical method. (I've hinted several places that this is possible. I've been holding off doing it until we go here.)

 

CHAOS2651

About the southern continent, would it be possible for other Scadrians to discover this method of using the Metallic Arts, or is it unique to the southern Scadrians?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

It is technology-based rather than genetics based.

***

 

Perhaps. I am fond of theories, although all mine are currently incomplete due to lack of research time.

 

I don't role play however, but watching you guys do it can be entertaining.

Maybe I can be the conservationist voice for all the poor non-invested natural lifeforms on various planets. Is it really right to Awaken dead squirrels? What if they don't wish to be zombies and bite Returned? 

 

And I'd definitely be interested in anti-hemalurgic weaponry.......this evil power thieving must not be allowed to continue to spread!

Welcome to the Society!

***

 

Problem being that it would probably require a specific bindpoint to block a specific spike, so not only would you need incredible accuracy in the midst of a fight in order to accurately hit the bindpoint you might also need to know specifically what spike they have, what it stole, and where it's placed and then ascertain how to block that spike. Perhaps one of the God metals could act as a universal anti-hemalurgy spike but even then you'd still need to precisely hit a bindpoint in the midst of combat.

Just ripping the spike out would be easier.

 

The problem is that intelligent Hemalurgists protect the linchpin spike from easy access. The ideal scenario would be for an anti-Hemalurgy spike to be capable of activating at any Hemalurgic bindpoint. That way, even a simple nail gun (of the type that can be fired without touching its target) loaded with anti-Hemalurgy spikes can neutralize Hemalurgic targets, even those that have Gold Feruchemy spikes.

 

Of course, my trusted method of riddling them with aluminum fragmenting bullets always works.

Edited February 8, 2015 by skaa

[Shlee]

I wonder if there's any way to de-spike (rehabilitate) hemalurgists without killing them. Perhaps some of them can be made to realize the error of walking the dark path of magic thievery.......

[Voidus]

I wonder if there's any way to de-spike (rehabilitate) hemalurgists without killing them. Perhaps some of them can be made to realize the error of walking the dark path of magic thievery.......

Just removing the spikes in most cases, even in someone with enough spikes to need a Linchpin to co-ordinate them only the linchpin spike is lethal to remove.

That said, no. We won't. Because Hemalurgy is awesome. Keeping powers that would otherwise be lost to the cosmere after 1 measly lifetime for all eternity, preserved in a piece of metal.

It's far more moral that Fabrials. Enslaving sentient beings just so that you can have a little heat or making an elevator.

[Left he/him]

Or there's always Spice   I can personally attest to it's coolness

[skaa he/him]

Just removing the spikes in most cases, even in someone with enough spikes to need a Linchpin to co-ordinate them only the linchpin spike is lethal to remove.

That said, no. We won't. Because Hemalurgy is awesome. Keeping powers that would otherwise be lost to the cosmere after 1 measly lifetime for all eternity, preserved in a piece of metal.

It's far more moral that Fabrials. Enslaving sentient beings just so that you can have a little heat or making an elevator.

Voidus, my Hemalurgic friend, most spren are not sentient, certainly not flamespren or gravityspren, or any spren currently used in Fabrial Science. As for enslaving sentient beings, that's why I detest the concept of the Nahel bond. People shouldn't have their souls invaded and their actions controlled just so they could access a measly two Surges, when fabrials give access to all ten.

The Ring is doubly culpable, for they force their individual members to risk their lives in performing such atrocities. I understand that this is all to defeat Odium, and that there is still much to improve in Fabrial Science, but the day will come when there will be no more excuse for all parties involved. I'm just glad most spren civilizations don't seem to enjoy this wretched relationship and are only forced to do so to defeat the Enemy.

[Lindel he/him]

Apologies, Skaa. I misread some important lines in your theory, which changed the meaning drastically. 

[skaa he/him]

After a painful two-hours-long and ultimately failed wisdom tooth extraction today that made me seriously fear for my life (I even thought at some point that I had died and was already in hell), I now wish I had healing and/or time-resetting powers, my RP character's convictions be damned.

I'll return here when I'm no longer grumpy and in pain. Meanwhile...

Members, do as you wish.

[Lindel he/him]

I personally have nothing against Surgebinders in and of themselves. The bond is mutually beneficial to both individuals, although it does taint a person's sDNA with foreign Investiture. Of course, one could argue that every person's soul is "Invested" to some degree. Is a Mistborn or an Awakener really all that different from one of us? Sure, they have more Investiture, but it isn't foreign, per se. Of course, the counterpoint with Awakeners is that they've taken hundreds of souls from other human beings, which clearly goes against our tenets. I can't really argue with that, I suppose.   

 

 My personal view is that Investiture is a tool that should be used for the benefit of all, but when reserved to a select few, it quickly leads to corrupt leaders and an oppressed populace. Hence my love of fabrials and other Invested technology, which is available for all of us. However, our leader's opinions on the matter are clear. 

Edited February 10, 2015 by Lindel

[skaa he/him]

Being Spiked against my will:

I'm totally evil

Being naturally Mistborn:

I'm corrupt.

Thanks for that analysis on my life.

Those spiked against their will are of course victims of the Invasive Investers and ought to be avenged. Fear not, Winter! We shall search for ways to free you from your Hemalurgic bondage! Meanwhile, just try to enjoy your conversations with Harmony, and try to avoid Ruinous thoughts and deeds!

Edit: I would suggest regularly burning aluminum to lessen the bad effects of Hemalurgy and lessen the chance to burn other metals. Try burning a very tiny pellet every hour... or heck, any chance you get. Aluminum is cheap now!

I am currently doing research on temporarily turning Hemalurgic beings into kandra. That way they can remove their spikes safely before they are turned back into their regular unspiked selves.

Edited February 12, 2015 by skaa

[Screwloose]

Turning them into Kandra should be possible (its how the LR made them after all) but i'm not sure about turning Mistwraiths (which they would be once you took out the spikes) back into humans. Plus there's the fact that the only known method requires the well of ascension and i'm not sure using that kind power fits with the goals of this organisation. That being said i'd be more than happy to assist you in researching a more scientific approach.

[Voidus]

Yeah you'd need them to be Mistwraiths before you could make them Kandra, the only known method of which is to use the WoA.

[skaa he/him]

Yes, that problem did cross my mind, Screwloose. We cannot offer this solution until we figure out how to revert mistwraithification in a feasible, non-stabby manner. Perhaps a newly-turned mistwraith could become human again when exposed to Re-Growth.

Edit: Sorry for misreading your post, Voidus. The research¹ I am undertaking to turn people into kandra does involve studying² the powers of Preservation and Ruin, particularly their Shardmetals³. Note that this does not involve burning, spiking, or otherwise being transformed by said metals myself. It's the Hemalurgic creatures who will potentially receive this treatment, after all.

--

¹ "wild-theory-development"

² "speculating on"

³ I refuse to call them "god" metals any longer⁴!

⁴ Not really, no.

Edited February 12, 2015 by skaa

[Lindel he/him]

Great. My internet filter is blocking me from viewing page four in this thread. Hope nothing exceptionally interesting is being discussed, cause I'll never be able to see it. 

[Fatebreaker he/him]

 

The Dark Alley:

We do what we must

because we can

For the good of all of us.

Except the ones who are dead.

 

But there's no sense crying over every mistake.

You just keep on trying till you run out of spikes.

The Hemalurgy gets done, and you make a Metalborn

For the people who are Still Alive. 

 

 

Bravo, quality material.

Allow a Denizen to submit his own version:

 

We do what we must

because no one else will.

We sacrifice ourselves,

To offer the Worlds Eternity.

 

Perfection is a myth,

But understanding elevates.

Success or failure,

It's all useful data.

 

We use one spark,

to ignite an endless flame.

Death is a mountain

We conquer with Science.

 

You don't have to like us,

We're different and strange.

Science is a misunderstood art,

That we craft for The Future.

 

Would you like a Cookie?

Edited February 17, 2015 by Fatebreaker

[skaa he/him]

Bravo, quality material.

Allow a Denizen to submit his own version:

We do what we must

because no one else will.

We sacrifice ourselves,

To offer the Worlds Eternity.

Perfection is a myth,

But understanding elevates.

Success or failure,

It's all useful data.

We use one spark,

to ignite an endless flame.

Death is a mountain

We conquer with Science.

You don't have to like us,

We're different and strange.

Science is a misunderstood art,

That we craft for The Future.

Would you like a Cookie?

I know Lindel was parodying "Still Alive", which the main villain of Portal sang during the end credits. May I ask what your poem was referencing, Fatebreaker? Or is it original work?

[Guest]

Atmosphere just got tense.