Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Deaths on the battlefield aren't illegal, whereas assassination is. I assume that the collateral damage to the soldiers was just a means of making it look more like a battle and less like an outside attempt on Amaram's life. Sending someone on the battlefield to specifically kill Amaram is basically assassination. And why not make another attempt at his life since the last one failed? edit: Also, Nale believes surgebinding is the reason for Desolation, why should he be interested in Amaram in the first place? So he is an a group that wishes the Heralds to return, And? He can't surgebind, probably none of them can. Then why would Nale bother with them? Edited January 31, 2015 by Aleksiel
Edgedancer he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Sending someone on the battlefield to specifically kill Amaram is basically assassination. And why not make another attempt at his life since the last one failed? edit: Also, Nale believes surgebinding is the reason for Desolation, why should he be interested in Amaram in the first place? So he is an a group that wishes the Heralds to return, And? He can't surgebind, probably none of them can. Then why would Nale bother with them? Your looking at this from a sane perspective motivated by morals. If it´s leagal Nalan will do it. He for example praises Szeth´s slaughters. Clearly he has no problem with casualties as long as they are commited within the regulations. However, killing someone without so much as the proper paper work? Inexcusable! (To him.) Two possible answers I can think of, his Radiant detection isn´t perfect an his actual target should have been Kaladin or he prefers to be safe rather than sorry concerning a group that wants to cause a Desolation. Edited January 31, 2015 by Edgedancer
Fifth of Daybreak he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Sending someone on the battlefield to specifically kill Amaram is basically assassination. And why not make another attempt at his life since the last one failed? edit: Also, Nale believes surgebinding is the reason for Desolation, why should he be interested in Amaram in the first place? So he is an a group that wishes the Heralds to return, And? He can't surgebind, probably none of them can. Then why would Nale bother with them? The Sons of Honor could be far more competent than your giving credit for. Gavilar did have the ominous black sphere and at least has a passing connection to the Sons of Honor.
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Those are a lot of ifs - if Nale knows about the SoH; if what the SoH do is not illegal; if the SoH are competent enough to be a hindrance. Why not arrange another attempt at the life of Amaram if Nale cared so much about it? I really think you're pushing it instead of going for the much simpler explanation that Nale wasn't involved. Edited January 31, 2015 by Aleksiel
Edgedancer he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Those are a lot of ifs - if Nale knows about the SoH; if what the SoH do is not illegal; if the SoH are competent enough to be a hindrance. Why not arrange another attempt at the life of Amaram if Nale cared so much about it? I really think you're pushing it instead of going for the much simpler explanation that Nale wasn't involved. Because there was no other opportunity to do so legally, with him no longer participating in skirmishes (I think) and it doesn´t matter if the SoH did something illegal. What matters if he could kill them in a way that is legal. He might care about killing them but he also didn´t try to kill Lift after she was pardoned. The guy just isn´t normal in this regard. Edited January 31, 2015 by Edgedancer
Moogle Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) edit: Also, Nale believes surgebinding is the reason for Desolation, why should he be interested in Amaram in the first place? So he is an a group that wishes the Heralds to return, And? He can't surgebind, probably none of them can. Then why would Nale bother with them? The SoH want a Desolation to happen, something Nalan does not want to happen. Nalan is not against Surgebinders, he's against Desolations. Attacking Amaram would fit his goals. That said, I agree with you that Nalan was likely not involved with the attempt on Amaram's life. The Skybreakers might have been, though. Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Because there was no other opportunity to do so legally, with him no longer participating in skirmishes (I think) and it doesn´t matter if the SoH did something illegal. What matters if he could kill them in a way that is legal. He might care about killing them but he also didn´t try to kill Lift after she was pardoned. The guy just isn´t normal in this regard. Then let's agree to disagree, and see what the canon will be. The SoH want a Desolation to happen, something Nalan does not want to happen. Nalan is not against Surgebinders, he's against Desolations. Attacking Amaram would fit his goals. If they can't contribute to the Desolation (surgebind), why would he bother with them? He'd attack the SoH only if they have the knowledge and the means to be a real threat. They knew about Taln, which is impressive, however it's not enough to draw conclusions about their overall competence to actually pose a danger to Nale's plan. They aren't even protecting surgebinders or looking for them so far as we know. That said, I agree with you that Nalan was likely not involved with the attempt on Amaram's life. The Skybreakers might have been, though. Hm, good point. I haven't given his minions enough to credit to consider them instead of Helaran working alone.
Moogle Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) If they can't contribute to the Desolation (surgebind), why would he bother with them? He'd attack the SoH only if they have the knowledge and the means to be a real threat. They knew about Taln, which is impressive, however it's not enough to draw conclusions about their overall competence to actually pose a danger to Nale's plan. They aren't even protecting surgebinders or looking for them so far as we know. Nalan has not said Surgebinders are the only people capable of causing Desolations. In fact, I think he's aware that Heralds leaving Damnation is something that causes Desolations. I posted some WoBs earlier in this thread to make that point. So perhaps both the SoH and Surgebinders can contribute to Desolations. Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle
Patrick Star Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 @Edgedancer The paperwork was necessary to make his killing legal. With Amaram, that wouldn't be an issue. @Alexsiel Members of the SoH helped to drive the Parshendi to adopting stormform. That's definitely contributing to desolation. And Nalan doesn't want desolation, so he won't like the SoH. The SoH are obviously pretty competent, as they're still a secret society. Secret enough that only other secret societies know anything about them. I mean, it took a slave escaping (and being recaught by) multiple masters, getting sold into the bridge crews, and becoming a windrunner in under 2 years to expose a single member. I'm not saying that Nalan tried to assassinate Amaram. What I am saying is that he COULD have, and that the battlefield plot did not force him to break the law. I would not be surprised if he ended up giving the order, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was completely uninvolved.
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 (edited) Nalan has not said Surgebinders are the only people capable of causing Desolations. In fact, I think he's aware that Heralds leaving Damnation is something that causes Desolations. I posted some WoBs earlier in this thread to make that point. True, but it's not like the SoH could do that. @Alexsiel Members of the SoH helped to drive the Parshendi to adopting stormform. That's definitely contributing to desolation. And Nalan doesn't want desolation, so he won't like the SoH. The SoH are obviously pretty competent, as they're still a secret society. Secret enough that only other secret societies know anything about them. I mean, it took a slave escaping (and being recaught by) multiple masters, getting sold into the bridge crews, and becoming a windrunner in under 2 years to expose a single member. I'm not saying that Nalan tried to assassinate Amaram. What I am saying is that he COULD have, and that the battlefield plot did not force him to break the law. I would not be surprised if he ended up giving the order, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was completely uninvolved. I wonder if and how much they knew about the Everstorm. Gavilar has mentioned it, but how much did he know? Did the SoH even know Parshendi have different forms? How? They had forgotten about stormform until recently and supposedly no human civilization had contact with them before Gavilar's expedition. If Gavilar had the same visions as Dalinar, then there shouldn't be anything Parshedi related there. Actually, the SoH (more like Gavilar's big mouth) made the Parshendi assassinate the Alethi king. Why the Parshendi later on never explained or made up a persuasive story to make peace again I don't understand. They could have thought of something politically acceptable (may be pretend he ruined a shrine of theirs or did something really offensive in their culture; the alethi could have never known otherwise). The Alethi had send messengers before the war to try and find out what happened, but the Parshendi never before WoR tried a peaceful approach to end the conflict. While in a way the SoH started it, I can't blame it all on them.And I doubt Gavilar meant to be assassinated in the first place. Edited January 31, 2015 by Aleksiel
Patrick Star Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 @Alexsiel They didn't need to know about Stormform. All the SoH had to know was that the Parshendi were the voidbringers of old. Jasnah came to the same conclusion. In fact, that could be why Amaram was courting her. He could have been trying to make her a part of the SoH because of her excellent research into the Parshendi. Once they knew that the Parshendi were voidbringers, they just had to nudge them enough to make them spark the return of the heralds (and of desolation). Amaram trying to get Jasnah to join the Sons of Honor has been added to my headcannon.
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 @Alexsiel They didn't need to know about Stormform. All the SoH had to know was that the Parshendi were the voidbringers of old. Jasnah came to the same conclusion. In fact, that could be why Amaram was courting her. He could have been trying to make her a part of the SoH because of her excellent research into the Parshendi. Once they knew that the Parshendi were voidbringers, they just had to nudge them enough to make them spark the return of the heralds (and of desolation). Amaram trying to get Jasnah to join the Sons of Honor has been added to my headcannon. It makes sense for Amaram to want Jasnah, but her father was SoH, too, why didn't he attempt to bring her on their side? And how could they know about who the voidbringers were? The Diagram says nothing about it (so far as we know; I'm very suspicious how Diagram T could miss something of the scale ), Jasnah found out after years of research, the visions from the Stormfather have no such knowledge. (and that it's important, but my nick is with k instead of x )
Patrick Star Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 The SoH and the Diagram are separate, so far as we know. I doubt that the SoH would have approved Dalinar's execution. And it's possible that Gavilar got some different visions than Dalinar, or at least understood them more fully in the beginning. It's Brandon Sanderson, anything's possible (no, literally anything).
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Of course they are separate groups, I wanted to illustrate how limited the knowledge of the Parshmen being former Voidbringers is.
Patrick Star Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Of course they are separate groups, I wanted to illustrate how limited the knowledge of the Parshmen being former Voidbringers is. With all of the cosmere connections, that info could be less limited than we think it is. And that may or may not be a good thing. I'm leaning towards not.
hoser he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Given that Jasnah saw through despised disliked Amaram even before Gavilar died and was wondering what Gavilar and Amaram were up to together, I can't see Amaram convincing Jasnah of anything. From the WoR Prologue: "Perhaps if you found pleasant associations," Gavilar said, "you would enjoy the feasts." His eyes swung toward Amaram, whom he'd long fancied as a potential match for her. It would never happen. Amaram met her eyes, then murmured words of parting to her father and hastened away down the corridor.
Patrick Star Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 Given that Jasnah saw through despised disliked Amaram even before Gavilar died and was wondering what Gavilar and Amaram were up to together, I can't see Amaram convincing Jasnah of anything. I wasn't saying that Amaram was going to convince her of anything. I'm just saying that he viewed her as a potential asset, due to her research on the Parshendi. It's definitely possible.
Aleksiel Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 She wasn't doing much of a research on the Parshendi before they killed her father.
hoser he/him Posted January 31, 2015 Posted January 31, 2015 ... He could have been trying to make her a part of the SoH because of her excellent research into the Parshendi. ... Amaram trying to get Jasnah to join the Sons of Honor has been added to my headcannon. He could certainly try to convince her to join. I doubt he would, since his chance is between slim and none and Amaram loves his reputation. If Jasnah got wind of Amaram in an organization trying to bring back the voidbringers, I don't like smArmyIam's chances of dying of old age. He would be well advised to avoid her at all costs. I wasn't saying that Amaram was going to convince her of anything. I'm just saying that he viewed her as a potential asset, due to her research on the Parshendi. It's definitely possible. We agree then that he wouldn't succeed. I read your previous post as saying that he would try to convince her, which I doubt. She freely shares her conclusion with anyone who will listen, so he can benefit from her research anyway. He should get the information from her via a third party, in any case.
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