Thoughts on Elhokar

[CabbageHead he/him]

Also, it would be a great irony if Elhokar between a "Willshaper" of all things. Even the title willshaper is basically the reverse of who he is right now. He tries so hard to shape the wills of the Highprinces, but he's basically waving his arms at a highstorm for all the effect he has.

 

God I feel daft, I completely missed that possible meaning of "Willshaper", I was thinking more along the lines of someone who shapes things through their will. Shaping the will of others makes more sense in the quote above calling them "capricious". I still think that fits with Elhokar though, because he wants people to obey him.

[Savanorn he/him]

God I feel daft, I completely missed that possible meaning of "Willshaper", I was thinking more along the lines of someone who shapes things through their will. Shaping the will of others makes more sense in the quote above calling them "capricious". I still think that fits with Elhokar though, because he wants people to obey him.

 

I always thought Willshapers...shaped their own will?

[dvoraen]

To paraphrase my view:  Elhokar is showing all the signs of being a Lightweaver with a 'newborn' bond.  Kaladin said it straight out:  The King is Dalinar's Tien.  And I mean that in every way.

 

- Seeing entities that could be Cryptics, and thinking he's going mad, entities that he describes as shadowy that fled while Kaladin was around.*

- He lies to himself about who he is.  I don't know how to really explain this with proof yet, just that it "seems obvious."

- Determined to 'see the pattern' of what's wrong with him as a ruler.  (Ref. Kaladin suggesting he abdicate.)

- Possibly Invested on accident by draining his Shardplate.  (Note that Brandon said it's difficult to do, but not impossible, plus it's Elhokar's own plate that was affected; there's plenty of possibility he did it without realizing it.)

 

 

* I think this was largely due to Sylphrena's presence, and the fact that she was in an advancing Nahel bond, whereas we've seen at least twice the presence of spren that are attendants, cronies, minions, etc. to the one investigating a candidate for a bond (Jasnah's and Shallan's experiences).

[Oudeis he/him]

whereas we've seen at least twice the presence of spren that are attendants, cronies, minions, etc. to the one investigating a candidate for a bond (Jasnah's and Shallan's experiences).

 

Don't forget Wyndle's comment about the Ring.

[blad3mast3r he/him]

Shallan:  "hi Elhokar, this is my spren, Pattern."

 

Elhokar: "AAAAAAAGGHHHH!"

[Dunkum he/him]

Shallan:  "hi Elhokar, this is my spren, Pattern."

 

Elhokar: "AAAAAAAGGHHHH!"

I've basically been waiting for this to happen for 2 books now.

[Moogle]

God I feel daft, I completely missed that possible meaning of "Willshaper", I was thinking more along the lines of someone who shapes things through their will. Shaping the will of others makes more sense in the quote above calling them "capricious". I still think that fits with Elhokar though, because he wants people to obey him.

Given Willshapers have the Cohesion Surge, I think your first assumption was correct.

[CabbageHead he/him]

Given Willshapers have the Cohesion Surge, I think your first assumption was correct.

 

I don't think I was. I think we're into the realms of equivalence with zinc allomancy here.

[Degamound]

While we do not have new a lot of information about Elhokar i think the end of the quote about the willshapers excludes him from being a willshaper 

 

And now, if there was an uncut gem among the Radiance, it was the Willshapers; for though enterprising, they were erratic, and Invia wrote of them, 'capricious, frustrating, unreliable,' as taking it for granted that others would agree; this may have been an intolerant view, as often Invia expressed, for this order was said to be most varied, inconsistent in temperament save for a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity.”

  From what we do not about him is a lot but he doesn't seem to fit a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity. Wonder who invia is though?

[Cactuschef]

My guess has been that the cryptics were somehow observing/approaching Elhokar, the way they did Shallan, but lacking her specific artistic abilities (the way she saw them by taking memories and drawing them), he ended up seeing them in a different way. But because he's bound a dead-spren shardblade, they're repelled (we've already seen how strongly live spren and shardblades don't mix) and all that gets through is glimpses and whispers. I just assumed that after trying futily for awhile and an honorspren showing up, the cryptics stopped trying.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Cactuschef

[CabbageHead he/him]

While we do not have new a lot of information about Elhokar i think the end of the quote about the willshapers excludes him from being a willshaper 

  From what we do not about him is a lot but he doesn't seem to fit a general love of adventure, novelty, or oddity. Wonder who invia is though?

I have to disagree there. He shows some modicum of adventure in his race against Dalinar, but when it comes to novelty and oddity, he is almost alone among lighteyes in loving the presence of Wit.

[skaa he/him]

In my mind, the idea of Elhokar being a Willshaper is turning from "theoretically possible" (as I implied in the previous page) to "very, very likely", all thanks to CabbageHead's posts. *upvotes*

 

As I said previously, I still think he was seeing Cryptics (who've been observing him for some strange reason), precisely because his Willshaper bond grants the ability to glimpse into the Cognitive Realm. I don't think Elhokar's Willshaper spren will actually introduce itself to him until he becomes less attached to his dead Shardblade "Sunraiser", but I believe the bond is already there.

Edited January 31, 2015 by skaa

[Moogle]

I have to disagree there. He shows some modicum of adventure in his race against Dalinar, but when it comes to novelty and oddity, he is almost alone among lighteyes in loving the presence of Wit.

 

I don't feel this shows much about his personality. Wit doesn't make fun of Elhokar or try to creep him out, so where's the chance for Elhokar to dislike him? Elhokar gets to watch Wit make fun of people with none of the drawbacks. I also wouldn't call a race 'adventure', since Elhokar did the race entirely because he was bored, not out of some love of adventure. Elhokar didn't care about what was on top of the peak they raced to.

 

Eshonai makes the most natural Willshaper to me (not that there's a limit of one). And if the Willshapers are about adventure/novelty, it would make sense that the first Radiant listener would be a Willshaper. Their spren would likely share those qualities.

 

Elhokar, though? Doesn't seem like he fits anything. It works better with his character if he's not a Radiant, anyways, since he has to deal with the fact that he's not-really-king while his uncle takes control and gets special powers. He did seem like he'd maybe qualify for being a Lightweaver for a while (beyond the utter lack of artistic skill, he did show a small glimpse of creativity by faking an attempt on his life, and the shattered gems suggest he might have been some sort of Surgebinder) - he was convinced he was a horrible king, which shows some self awareness rather than arrogant self-delusions. Of course, that may have just been him being drunk. With his "I'm going to be a totally great king!" spiel at the end, I doubt he'd qualify for the Lightweavers anymore, which may be why the Cryptics left him alone.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle

[skaa he/him]

I don't feel this shows much about his personality. Wit doesn't make fun of Elhokar or try to creep him out, so where's the chance for Elhokar to dislike him? Elhokar gets to watch Wit make fun of people with none of the drawbacks.

 

A man who doesn't enjoy oddities would dislike Wit's occasionally off-color jokes, whether or not they were aimed at him. A man who doesn't enjoy novelty and who is king of a society of angry, arrogant warrior aristocrats would, at the very least, feel uncomfortable with the way this Wit is treating said aristocrats, because I doubt any other King's Wit in the history of Alethkar would have said the same things Hoid said to people like Sadeas.

 

The whole point of a court jester in medieval times is to be odd and novel (and occasionally insightful). That's what makes them entertaining for the sorts of people who employ them. That's also why kingdoms like England stopped having court jesters after people, for one reason or another, decided that royal courts should remain as respectable, predictable, and boring as possible.

 

 

I also wouldn't call a race 'adventure', since Elhokar did the race entirely because he was bored, not out of some love of adventure. Elhokar didn't care about what was on top of the peak they raced to.

 

Love for adventure is, sadly, not always the same as love for discovery. You can love adventure simply because you can't stand boredom. That's what Elhokar is. Gavilar and Eshonai may have gone on adventures of discovery, but we don't know yet what particular sort of adventure-loving is sought after by Willshaper spren. Given how varied and inconsistent Willshapers supposedly were, it could be any sort.

 

 

Elhokar, though? Doesn't seem like he fits anything. It works better with his character if he's not a Radiant, anyways, since he has to deal with the fact that he's not-really-king while his uncle takes control and gets special powers. He did seem like he'd maybe qualify for being a Lightweaver for a while (beyond the utter lack of artistic skill, he did show a small glimpse of creativity by faking an attempt on his life, and the shattered gems suggest he might have been some sort of Surgebinder) - he was convinced he was a horrible king, which shows some self awareness rather than arrogant self-delusions. Of course, that may have just been him being drunk. With his "I'm going to be a totally great king!" spiel at the end, I doubt he'd qualify for the Lightweavers anymore, which may be why the Cryptics left him alone.

 

Eh, few of us here like Elhokar very much, I think. Even calling him a proto-Willshaper as CabbageHead and I do isn't much of a compliment, given that Order's reputation. But while our reasons might not be totally conclusive, you can't just brush them away and say outright that he doesn't fit any of the Radiants due to his personality that we both of us don't like, when one Order of Radiant was known for their variety in temperament.

 

I say we agree to disagree for now and wait till we get more information about the other Orders.

Edited January 31, 2015 by skaa

[Aleksiel]

If Elhokar is not to progress, then he'll die sooner rather than later. But the way things are now, his death will only affect Dalinar and basically no reader will care much, so it doesn't seem the best course of action.

 

I think the easiest and fastest way for Elhokar to progress is to become Radiant - he'll gain credibility, respect (finally), it will give him confidence and will reinforce his position as a king. That being said, I don't know if it's the best way for him to do those or will feel as a cheap way out. I sincerely doubt he'll suddenly become more competent without an outside source like a spren bond.

[Guest]

If Elhokar is not to progress, then he'll die sooner rather than later. But the way things are now, his death will only affect Dalinar and basically no reader will care much, so it doesn't seem the best course of action.

 

Why would you want a character death to matter so much to the reader? The only way to do would be to kill of main and beloved characters such as GRRM. Unfortunately, the end result is many readers now feel disinterested with the story as they know their favorites could end up dead in the next pages.

 

I would not wish that for SA.

 

Elhokar is important enough to have some effect on the readers. It would also affect the Kohlin household dynamic and Kaladin would have a hard time getting over it. All in all, not a bad one to kill, providing someone needs to die, which I am not convinced of. I for one hate to think my favorites may end up dead in the next book.

 

 

I think the easiest and fastest way for Elhokar to progress is to become Radiant - he'll gain credibility, respect (finally), it will give him confidence and will reinforce his position as a king. That being said, I don't know if it's the best way for him to do those or will feel as a cheap way out. I sincerely doubt he'll suddenly become more competent without an outside source like a spren bond.

 

I fail to see why Elhokar would suddenly become a better person simply because he now have a spren bond... Our other proto-Radiants have become better persons before they received the bond, not after. The sprens did not change their knight, they reinforce the strengths they already have. What strengths does Elhokar have that could be reinforced? A desire to be a better king? But to which end? Does he truly care about his subjects or is he more concerned about his public image?

[Aleksiel]

Why would you want a character death to matter so much to the reader? The only way to do would be to kill of main and beloved characters such as GRRM. Unfortunately, the end result is many readers now feel disinterested with the story as they know their favorites could end up dead in the next pages.

 

I would not wish that for SA.

 

Elhokar is important enough to have some effect on the readers. It would also affect the Kohlin household dynamic and Kaladin would have a hard time getting over it. All in all, not a bad one to kill, providing someone needs to die, which I am not convinced of. I for one hate to think my favorites may end up dead in the next book.

 

Why kill a not-so-minor character if the reader won't care much for? I don't say it won't happen, I just see it a waste of ink and paper to happen before Elhokar progresses.

 

 

 

I fail to see why Elhokar would suddenly become a better person simply because he now have a spren bond... Our other proto-Radiants have become better persons before they received the bond, not after. The sprens did not change their knight, they reinforce the strengths they already have. What strengths does Elhokar have that could be reinforced? A desire to be a better king? But to which end? Does he truly care about his subjects or is he more concerned about his public image?

 

He won't suddenly become a better person, but he will have a clearer goal in mind (becoming a full KR), milestones to track his progress (the Oaths). His authority will have better grounds - he currently is king just in name, but not in power. We don't know much about his strengths, he didn't have enough screen time, revealing conversations or any PoV for us to draw conclusions from.

 

So far Cryptics seem to be more about personal development rather than interested in the greater good, so someone who wishes to better himself seems more fitting than not. 

 

Perhaps there's a better story arch for Elhokar, becoming Radiant or dying are just two of the many possible ways his story could take. 

Edited January 31, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

(long post resummarizing arguments mainly for my own benefit in the future, feel free to ignore) 

 

 A man who doesn't enjoy oddities would dislike Wit's occasionally off-color jokes, whether or not they were aimed at him. A man who doesn't enjoy novelty and who is king of a society of angry, arrogant warrior aristocrats would, at the very least, feel uncomfortable with the way this Wit is treating said aristocrats, because I doubt any other King's Wit in the history of Alethkar would have said the same things Hoid said to people like Sadeas.

 

The way I interpret things is that the entire point of a Wit is to insult people so the king doesn't have to. He's supposed to be rude and offensive. Every king has had a Wit, as far as I can tell, so Elhokar is not unique in this regard. There are explicitly laws that allow anyone who wants to to kill the Wit. The Wit isn't really the equivalent of a jester as far as I can tell. From the book:

Wit laughed again, though he maintained a sense of dignity in his posture. The King’s Wit was not a silly court fool such as one might find in other kingdoms. He was a sword, a tool maintained by the king. Insulting others was beneath the dignity of the king, so just as one used gloves when forced to handle something vile, the king retained a Wit so he didn’t have to debase himself to the level of rudeness or offensiveness. This new Wit had been with them for some months, and there was something…different about him. He seemed to know things that he shouldn’t, important things. Useful things.

...

Killing the King’s Wit was legal. But by so doing, Sadeas would forfeit his title and lands. Most men found it a poor enough trade not to do it in the open. Of course, if you could assassinate a Wit without anyone knowing it was you, that was something different.
 

We can agree to disagree here, but as far as I can tell, no one thinks Wit is off or novel because of his insults, it's more about the way he himself acts. He "knows things that he shouldn't".

 

Eh, few of us here like Elhokar very much, I think. Even calling him a proto-Willshaper as CabbageHead and I do isn't much of a compliment, given that Order's reputation. But while our reasons might not be totally conclusive, you can't just brush them away and say outright that he doesn't fit any of the Radiants due to his personality that we both of us don't like, when one Order of Radiant was known for their variety in temperament.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say Radiant = good person, Elhokar = bad person, therefore Elhokar is not a Radiant. I don't consider being a Radiant to necessarily be a compliment, and I have no issues with Elhokar joining an order just because I don't like him. I just don't think Elhokar's strong personality traits fit any of the orders.

 

Every Radiant we've seen has been significant in some regard personalty or action-wise, not just a common person. Elhokar? I have a hard time actually describing his personality. Quick to anger (inherited from Navani?), willing to be humble (...occasionally...), stubborn (barely, at times when he's angry), arrogant, whiny, paranoid, insecure, has a desire to be better.  He's faked an attempt on his life and revealed his insecurities to his bodyguard as the most significant defining moments I can think of.

 

These are mostly not traits I see defining any Radiant order except possibly the Lightweavers as part of the attempt to fake an attempt on his life and the whole desire for self-improvement (which might also be Lightweavers?). He just doesn't seem very unique or special. How's he going to attract a spren?

 

 

To summarize my main point again: The Willshapers were varied in temperament, but they all shared a love of adventure, novelty, or oddity. Your post does not convince me Elhokar has a love of any of these.

 

Elhokar going for a race to the top of a cliff is the only real candidate for a love of adventure, and even granting that shows one is adventurous (I disagree), if he does that one thing in a year, then I would say it's not very character defining. Elhokar is not a person who likes to do things in general. He's very submissive and reactive rather than proactive (though he shows glimmers of something when he faked the attempt on his life).

 

Novelty/oddity? The only thing I've seen people can point to is Wit, which every king has (and Hoid is not out of the ordinary for a Wit really beyond being 'unnerving', which only makes him better at his job), and maybe his glass-encased-larkin, which is just a general rich person thing. Even if both were true, two small things does not make it a character trait significant enough to draw a spren to me.

 

I look at Kaladin, and see this strong desire in him to protect people. This naturally flows into his actions as he tries to protect Tien-alikes and Bridge Four and all the people he healed as a child. I look at Jasnah, a woman who devotes her life to scholarship, and I see this reflect in her actions as she tries to save the world through getting people to recognize the listeners as Voidbringers. Lift? Compassionate to the point where she basically throws her life away to save one thief she barely knew. Becoming Radiants didn't make these characters interesting or unique - they were that way before, and this drew the spren to them.

 

Elhokar doesn't do much for me on this front. He's... boring. (Note: I don't mean he's boring in a literary sense, that he's not interesting to read about. I just don't think he's very spren-attractive.) Compare him to Eshonai, who does little but desire to adventure (and did adventure!), who's willing to be the first to take on a new form despite the dangers, who ultimately does things. (The whole 'being willing to take on a dangerous form' being correlated with Eshonai picking up a cometspren really makes me think cometspren could be Willshaper spren, despite how perfectly they fit Skybreakers.)

 

 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but I did try to want to make my post in full and expand on my position so I have something to refer to in the future.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

(long post resummarizing arguments mainly for my own benefit in the future, feel free to ignore) 

.....

 

Sorry, I couldn't completely ignore it. What was so significant personally or action-wise about little Shallan or Renarin? Sure, we know nothing about young her and he's quick to jump to help his brother, however it wasn't reasonable to do so and hasty actions don't strike me as Truthwatcher's trait. He's a good person and has qualities, I'm not denying that. Him becoming KR was an easy way for his character to progress, but we're yet to see him expressing his supposed attributes. His desire to protect Adolin falls more under WR category and is not within his Order's description. Yes, he doesn't strive to protect anyone else, but that's not my main point.

 

Even Dalinar wasn't widely considered by the fandom to be a potential Bondsmith before WoR, most people thought he'd be a Stoneward. And that's considering Dalinar had plenty of screen time and PoVs. Yet most of us (including me) misjudged him, but looking back now, it's easy to see what makes him a Bondsmith material.

[Guest]

Why kill a not-so-minor character if the reader won't care much for? I don't say it won't happen, I just see it a waste of ink and paper to happen before Elhokar progresses.

 

Why kill a not-so-minor character many readers care about simply to broadcast you are willing to sacrifice your creations? We could walk down quite a while on this path I agree though whatever happens to Elhokar should wait until he grows, one way or another.

 

 

 

He won't suddenly become a better person, but he will have a clearer goal in mind (becoming a full KR), milestones to track his progress (the Oaths). His authority will have better grounds - he currently is king just in name, but not in power. We don't know much about his strengths, he didn't have enough screen time, revealing conversations or any PoV for us to draw conclusions from.

 

So far Cryptics seem to be more about personal development rather than interested in the greater good, so someone who wishes to better himself seems more fitting than not. 

 

Perhaps there's a better story arch for Elhokar, becoming Radiant or dying are just two of the many possible ways his story could take. 

 

I disagree the Cryptics have been about personal development. The Cryptics have been about personal awareness. Shallan's own set of truth did not make her grow as a person, but it did make her more aware and accepting of her own self. Besides, I also disagree Elhokar wants to better himself as I read him as someone who wants to better his image more than his person.

 

He claims that when he tries to be merciful, he appears too soft. When he tries to be strong, he is not credible. When he tries to listen to counsel, he picks the wrong one. When he tries to be pro-active, he triggers his uncle over-protectiveness sentient.

 

Merciful. He tries to be merciful with Roshone and as a result, he set free a miscreant with leave to continue abusing of those under him.

 

Strong. He sends Kaladin in prison to appear authoritative because he has shun his image by spoiling his boon.

 

Listen to counsel. He listened to an advice with no absolute regard to the end game and yet blames himself for not having listen the right one.

 

Pro-active. I have yet to see him be such person.

 

Overall, each time Elhokar fails is because he is more concerned about how he appears then about the consequences of his decrees. Had he concerned himself on his subjects well-being, he would not have listen to Roshone trying to discredit honest workers. Had he concerned himself on his subjects, he would not have put a tantrum in front of the crowd, getting Kaladin publicly arrested and ruining Adolin's chance to duel Sadeas, a plan he was well aware of. Has he be concerned about his people's well-being, he would not have let a manipulative vindictive man such as Roshone get a free pass without restraints.

 

I may be wrong in my interpretation and you would be right to call me out for not liking him However, I do feel the clues we have been left with indicate a man strongly concerned about how he appears in front of his subjects as opposed to concern about their well-being. He claims he wants to be a better king, but that what end? From what I have gathered so far, his end game is to be perceived as a good strong king, which strongly differs from actually being one.

 

I agree his tactics of lying to himself is reminiscent of Shallan, but the comparison stops there. All of Shallan's actions were triggered by her desire to create greater truth for her brothers, protecting her family and advancing Jasnah's studies which she came to believe were crucial to the world's fate not to say the least. She has never express any concern as to how she would be perceived nor had her personal image ever been one of concern. I interpret this major divergence between the two characters as the difference between a Radiant and a non Radiant.

 

Had Elhokar concerned himself with what was best for his subjects, he would have been a much better king. All his mistakes had that in common.

[Guest]

Sorry, I couldn't completely ignore it. What was so significant personally or action-wise about little Shallan or Renarin? Sure, we know nothing about young her and he's quick to jump to help his brother, however it wasn't reasonable to do so and hasty actions don't strike me as Truthwatcher's trait. He's a good person and has qualities, I'm not denying that. Him becoming KR was an easy way for his character to progress, but we're yet to see him expressing his supposed attributes. His desire to protect Adolin falls more under WR category and is not within his Order's description. Yes, he doesn't strive to protect anyone else, but that's not my main point.

 

Even Dalinar wasn't widely considered by the fandom to be a potential Bondsmith before WoR, most people thought he'd be a Stoneward. And that's considering Dalinar had plenty of screen time and PoVs. Yet most of us (including me) misjudged him, but looking back now, it's easy to see what makes him a Bondsmith material.

 

Only the fact we know next to nothing about young Shallan and Renarin. Young Shallan's life was probably close to a disaster and her ability to create lies to make it better draw Pattern. As for Renarin, I have already told you: he is selfless. He does not care about himself. All his actions are geared towards this end result. He wants to be useful, to do something. He does not care about his personal growth or his advancement: he cares about contributing to his father's plan.

 

Elhokar has yet to prove he can manage as much. We do not know much about him enough but what we know goes strongly against what we know of Radiants. Of course, since everyone is working with partial truths, all interpretation are valid. Needless to say, I do not get a good "vibe" about Elhokar, but I doubt you would take that as an argument Would you?

 

It was hard to place hold Radiants before we knew much about them. Now, it is more easy.

[Nahlion Dahlyr he/him]

Elhokar going for a race to the top of a cliff is the only real candidate for a love of adventure, and even granting that shows one is adventurous (I disagree), if he does that one thing in a year, then I would say it's not very character defining.

I can definitely see what you're saying, and am half there... but Elhokar charging the Chasmfiend in TWoK seemed to me like something pretty adventurous/erratic to do. All in all though, we haven't really seen enough of Elhokar to determine what radiant order he'd be in (if he is in one at all).

[Moogle]

Good to see you again, maxal! It's been a while.

 

Sorry, I couldn't completely ignore it. What was so significant personally or action-wise about little Shallan or Renarin? Sure, we know nothing about young her and he's quick to jump to help his brother, however it wasn't reasonable to do so and hasty actions don't strike me as Truthwatcher's trait. He's a good person and has qualities, I'm not denying that. Him becoming KR was an easy way for his character to progress, but we're yet to see him expressing his supposed attributes. His desire to protect Adolin falls more under WR category and is not within his Order's description. Yes, he doesn't strive to protect anyone else, but that's not my main point.

 

Knowing full well this is a discussion that could be very long which I'll regret...

 

Renarin: we don't get much screen time at all with him, so expecting to see his qualities manifest is not reasonable, particularly for an order known to be secretive. However, despite this, we actually get a strong personality from him: he's someone who watches others. He's widely seen as "creepy" because of this, with women refusing to date him. (Elhokar has no rumors of this sort of thing, like him being a weird king who likes odd things.) Note that Ym was called creepy too - it may be a trait the Truthwatchers share. This is the sort of trait I'm looking for, something that shows someone is distinct from regular people. This is the sort of trait I think can attract spren - remember that the gratitude of those that Kal helped was apparently part of what attracted Syl to him. I also think his (somewhat ridiculous) attempts to help his father and brother are a Truthwatcher trait - their secondary trait is "Giving". Renarin clearly fits "Learned", as like Ym he watches people/goes for their stories. He even joins Bridge Four.

 

Shallan: we don't know about her childhood and what attracted Pattern, so I can't say here. I will say that she acts precisely how a liespren would want her to act, however. She creates great art, she has deep secrets, she pretends to be what she's not, she convinces others to be what they're not, she lies to others with ease. Her becoming Jasnah's ward fits this perfectly.

 

As to Adolin: he's another person I see as exemplifying my point when he killed Sadeas. It's a character defining moment, something a regular person wouldn't do. It makes him unique. It's exactly the sort of thing that would attract a spren, and I expect him to become a KR (eventually - he has character drama to work through first). Before killing Sadeas, I wouldn't have said he'd become a KR.

 

Even Dalinar wasn't widely considered by the fandom to be a potential Bondsmith before WoR, most people thought he'd be a Stoneward. And that's considering Dalinar had plenty of screen time and PoVs. Yet most of us (including me) misjudged him, but looking back now, it's easy to see what makes him a Bondsmith material.

 

I agree with your point, that it's easy to see this sort of thing in retrospect and hard to see before it happens... but to offer a counter-point: that was WoK. We didn't know anything at all about the orders other than Windrunners, about what attracted them, about what they did. There was no way to accurately determine what Dalinar would become. (I for one didn't even think he was a Surgebinder pre-WoR, and I was wrong. Though to be fair, that was the early part of the bond.)

 

With WoR, we're exposed to a ridiculous amount of information through the epigraphs alone about how this works. We know that Willshapers share a general love of novelty/adventure/etc. (beyond the risk WoR was corrupted by the church/the author was mistaken). We have WoBs about the Ideals of various orders. Having seen multiple orders, we can extrapolate to the others with more accuracy.

 

In general, I'm open to Elhokar becoming a Radiant - with some character development, he could surely attract a spren. (Or a spren community could choose him and then mold him into one.) I just don't think right now we have enough information for him to qualify. In some ways, he's like Renarin - we don't know Elhokar too well, so it may be there are things I'm missing that would signify to me that he's on the path to being a Radiant.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

 

Why kill a not-so-minor character many readers care about simply to broadcast you are willing to sacrifice your creations? We could walk down quite a while on this path   I agree though whatever happens to Elhokar should wait until he grows, one way or another.

 

It would feel like a wasted opportunity for me. There's much more to do with Elhokar as a character than simply killing off when nobody cares. It could most definitely happen, I'm not arguing against that. However, it's not something I'd enjoy reading. I think his story has better places to go tha end in the middle of nowhere.

 

 

 

I disagree the Cryptics have been about personal development. The Cryptics have been about personal awareness. Shallan's own set of truth did not make her grow as a person, but it did make her more aware and accepting of her own self. Besides, I also disagree Elhokar wants to better himself as I read him as someone who wants to better his image more than his person.

 

 

I consider awareness and acceptance to be part of personal development, so nothing to disagree here on except definitions, which won't very productive. Cryptics are about realizing what you want to deny. Elhokar is a good candidate on this one.

 

Well, as you know, I'm not really for him being a LW, but I'll try to defend the theory for the sake of a good character discussion 

 

 

 

 

He claims that when he tries to be merciful, he appears too soft. When he tries to be strong, he is not credible. When he tries to listen to counsel, he picks the wrong one. When he tries to be pro-active, he triggers his uncle over-protectiveness sentient.

 

Merciful. He tries to be merciful with Roshone and as a result, he set free a miscreant with leave to continue abusing of those under him.

 

Strong. He sends Kaladin in prison to appear authoritative because he has shun his image by spoiling his boon.

 

Listen to counsel. He listened to an advice with no absolute regard to the end game and yet blames himself for not having listen the right one.

 

Pro-active. I have yet to see him be such person.

 

We don't know if he meant Roshone. Why would he think he appeared soft back then? Who'd bring that one up? Sadeas was satisfied and so was Dalinar, Elhokar has no reason to think he did wrong on that one. He was referring to something else if you ask me. I doubt he wanted to appear stromg when he send Kladin to prison. Actually, I'd rather say that 'when he tries to be merciful, he appears too soft.' was referring to not letting Kal free earlier because he feared the public opinion. The guy just needs a better PR 

 

 

Overall, each time Elhokar fails is because he is more concerned about how he appears then about the consequences of his decrees. Had he concerned himself on his subjects well-being, he would not have listen to Roshone trying to discredit honest workers. Had he concerned himself on his subjects, he would not have put a tantrum in front of the crowd, getting Kaladin publicly arrested and ruining Adolin's chance to duel Sadeas, a plan he was well aware of. Has he be concerned about his people's well-being, he would not have let a manipulative vindictive man such as Roshone get a free pass without restraints.

 

I may be wrong in my interpretation and you would be right to call me out for not liking him   However, I do feel the clues we have been left with indicate a man strongly concerned about how he appears in front of his subjects as opposed to concern about their well-being. He claims he wants to be a better king, but that what end? From what I have gathered so far, his end game is to be perceived as a good strong king, which strongly differs from actually being one.

 

I agree his tactics of lying to himself is reminiscent of Shallan, but the comparison stops there. All of Shallan's actions were triggered by her desire to create greater truth for her brothers, protecting her family and advancing Jasnah's studies which she came to believe were crucial to the world's fate not to say the least. She has never express any concern as to how she would be perceived nor had her personal image ever been one of concern. I interpret this major divergence between the two characters as the difference between a Radiant and a non Radiant.

 

Had Elhokar concerned himself with what was best for his subjects, he would have been a much better king. All his mistakes had that in common.

 

Why should his focus on his image make him any less of a potential LW? Where is it said LW can't be deeply concerned with how they are viewed? Plus the guy has only his image. He has no real power, no men (even the King's Guard is under Dalinar's command). His public image is the only thing he has any control over. 

 

 

 

As for Renarin, I have already told you: he is selfless. He does not care about himself. All his actions are geared towards this end result. He wants to be useful, to do something. He does not care about his personal growth or his advancement: he cares about contributing to his father's plan.

 

I totally agree. However none of those are pointed as TW traits. So we couldn't know his Order based on what we've seen, that was my main point. It's easy to misjudge characters and it all looks clear in past tense. 

 

edit to not make a double post:

 

 

....

 

 

We knew about the attributes and I don't think even one person would have put Renarin with the TW. I'm not arguing in favor of Elhokar being a KR, but it's still difficult to say who will be one and which Order they'll be. Even Adolin whom we know much about, yet there are plenty of different opinions despite all the new things about the Orders.

Edited January 31, 2015 by Aleksiel

[Moogle]

I can definitely see what you're saying, and am half there... but Elhokar charging the Chasmfiend in TWoK seemed to me like something pretty adventurous/erratic to do. All in all though, we haven't really seen enough of Elhokar to determine what radiant order he'd be in (if he is in one at all).

 

I don't consider his motivations for that to be adventurous or erratic. We probably have different ideas on what those words mean for a Willshaper, but I'm using Eshonai as my model for adventurous: visiting and seeing new places purely out of curiosity or a desire to know more.

 

Elhokar, when fighting the chasmfiend, had a few things going on:

• Retreating would make him look like a weak king. Attacking is the only way to deal with his insecurities there.
• He was in Shardplate, and so was in much less danger than a regular man. Less need to fear the thing.
• Having had to deal with Cryptics or whatever every night and feeling paranoid, he finally gets a foe he can attack directly. To relieve his own frustration, he's going to attack.
• He had set up a plan to fake an attempt on his life by cutting his straps, and had to execute it.
• The Thrill makes him want to fight.

None of these are really done out of a curiosity, or love of novelty. If he had been fighting the chasmfiend as a way to experience new things, a fascination to see whether he could do it, for the sheer love of doing this sort of thing, I'd agree with you that it's adventurous. Planning a hunt can definitely be adventurous. I don't think those were his motivations, however.