Unique Abilities of Knights Radiant

[Darkness he/him]

I've been hearing a lot of people touch on the topic, but I want to open it up for real. Besides Shallan's memory-taking (more of an inwardly manifested talent?), we now have a WoB about Kaladin's "unique ability":

Q: I said since Shallan has a unique ability of Memory from her blended surges, is fighting what Kaladin has?

A: No. His unique ability is "Strength of Squires".

Aside from exploring what "Strength of Squires" means (affects third parties more than Kaladin?), or how this will be epic, I want to explore a couple other things. Firstly, when Brandon says 'unique ability', does this refer to only Kaladin, or will this ability be common to the Windrunner order (another way to look at it is will it be easy to find Shallan's order because they all have memory tricks)? Secondly, does every Knight have a unique ability, or only a few of them? Finally, what abilities do you expect our Knights-dawning have? I like lists.

 

Edit: With respect to recent comments on the thread, I'm going to try expanding this theory a bit. I'll fall in with the speculation that both orders and individual knights have unique strengths, and start hypothesizing some of them. Naturally, we only have one example from some orders, so it's too early to tell if the ability could apply to the order or specific Knight, or even if such structure exists:

 

Windrunners - Strength of Squires           - Kaladin: Visions of flying over Roshar (from Stormfather?)

Skybreakers - Ability to judge innocence - Szeth (Aspiring): To Be Determined

Dustbringers - To Be Determined

Edgedancers - To Be Determined            - Lift: Food --> Stormlight (from Nightwatcher?)

Truthwatchers - Visions of truth (?)          - Renarin: To Be Determined

                                                                 - Ym: Unknown

Lightweavers - Mnemonic abilities          - Shallan: Taking memories

                                                                 - Elhokar (?): To Be Determined

Elsecallers - Sense of direction (?)          - Jasnah: To Be Determined

Willshapers - To Be Determined              - Eshonai (?): I find the spren that bothers her in stormform suspicious WOR p. 711

Stonewards - To Be Determined

Bondsmiths - Innate bond with Honor (?)- Dalinar: Feels a powerful trust for Kaladin. Possible subconscious recognition of oaths made/spren bonded.

 

Note: The visions that Gavilar and Dalinar had were given by the Stormfather's choice, and are not an ability. This may apply to Kaladin also. Additionally, it would be good to know if non-radiant shardbearers can hear their swords scream when a radiant touches it at the same time (Relis heard screaming when Kaladin caught his blade WOR p.672).

 

 

“There came also sixteen of the order of Windrunners, and with them a considerable number of squires, and finding in that place the Skybreakers dividing the innocent from the guilty, there ensued a great debate.”

“The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 28, page 3

Is "such" referring to the ability to debate, or Implying that Skybreakers are uniquely able to judge innocence from guilt.

Thoughts? Anyone I missed that we know had/has a bond with a spren? I'll edit them in.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Darkness

[natc]

I was under the impression that Lift's stormlight metabolism was the Nightwatcher's fault. Wyndle was wondering the whole time what sort of weird thing she asked for to become like this on top of being able to touch spren.

[Oudeis he/him]

I find this WoB confusing, since in the text Kal asks Syl, "I fight really well. Is that because of you?" And she basically says "Yes." So... I sit here trying to reconcile that with his pretty unequivocal "no" in re: the same question.

[hoser he/him]

In the pre-prison duel w/Adolin, Kaladin seems to fight with an almost precognitive awareness when using the helm. I read it as possibly pressure related. It seems potentially peculiar to windrunners.

There are unexplained lines in the surgebinding chart that seem significant also.

[Darkness he/him]

I find this WoB confusing, since in the text Kal asks Syl, "I fight really well. Is that because of you?" And she basically says "Yes." So... I sit here trying to reconcile that with his pretty unequivocal "no" in re: the same question.

 

That's actually explained by Teft in tWoK. He sees Kaladin fighting to hold the bridge for Dalinar's army, and thinks to himself about how Kaladin's powers couldn't grant him skill, but they did perfect his ability, giving him supernatural speed, agility, and strength. In a way, Syl does let Kaladin fight really really well... without her he just fights really well.

[11thorderknight]

I'm pretty sure there's WoB that each order gets "something of their own", which is NOT simply a combination of their two surges. For the Lightweavers, it seems like they get "strange mnemonic abilities", apparently tied to art - i.e. Shallan's Memories can only be reproduced by drawing. Then there's Tien, who could apparently carve amazingly realistic statues (thanks to whoever picked up on that!!). It fits that the Lightweavers' abilities would be individualized.

 

The Skybreakers, possibly, had an instinctive sense of when people were lying to them, or felt guilty, or whatever; something that made them extremely good detectives/judges. The Elsecallers seem to have an unnaturally good sense of direction. We don't know exactly what the Windrunners will have, but an ability to inspire/lead others would be very fitting.

[Oudeis he/him]

Then there's Tien, who could apparently carve amazingly realistic statues (thanks to whoever picked up on that!!).

 

You're welcome!

 

That's actually explained by Teft in tWoK. He sees Kaladin fighting to hold the bridge for Dalinar's army, and thinks to himself about how Kaladin's powers couldn't grant him skill, but they did perfect his ability, giving him supernatural speed, agility, and strength. In a way, Syl does let Kaladin fight really really well... without her he just fights really well.

 

Yeah... no. I'm trying to find the thread where I addressed this all before so I can avoid rehashing it all. Basically, the text doesn't support this sentiment. Kaladin had unnatural skill the very first time he ever touched a quarterstaff, his trainers were stunned the very first lesson, and when he fights the wind visibly warps around him. He talks about his hours of training, but that's his way to justify his skill to himself before he believes in magic; he eventually has "the talk" with Syl and confronts the grim reality that he's only the fighter he is because of her.

 

As for Teft... he knows very little, and most of what he knows is wrong. The people who taught him thought that just about anyone would become a Radiant if they were about to die, and so invented Rube Goldberg suicide machines. He didn't even know how one draws in Stormlight. He didn't realize there were different Orders of Radiant; he told Kaladin that Kaladin would have every Surge, and that's not how it works. Apart from "Stormlight = powers" and "You're only a Surgebinder and I don't know what you have to do to be a Radiant" Teft has not gotten one single fact correct. His role is more to show us that most of what people believe about magic is wrong, than to be the Surgepedia. Basically, at this point, if Teft explains something, I take it more-or-less on faith that it's wrong.

[Arondell]

As for Teft... he knows very little, and most of what he knows is wrong. The people who taught him thought that just about anyone would become a Radiant if they were about to die, and so invented Rube Goldberg suicide machines. He didn't even know how one draws in Stormlight. He didn't realize there were different Orders of Radiant; he told Kaladin that Kaladin would have every Surge, and that's not how it works. Apart from "Stormlight = powers" and "You're only a Surgebinder and I don't know what you have to do to be a Radiant" Teft has not gotten one single fact correct. His role is more to show us that most of what people believe about magic is wrong, than to be the Surgepedia. Basically, at this point, if Teft explains something, I take it more-or-less on faith that it's wrong.

 

I feel your overstating this at least a little.  If nothing else some comments he made in Words of Radiance makes it clear that he did at least understand that there were different orders.  I don't recall any scene where he told Kaladin he would have access to every surge.  I do recall a scene where he mentioned various powers the Radiants as a whole had.

 

Edit : Digging around a bit more in  in TWoK I found the section where Teft tells Kaladin of the Ideals.  Including that the later four were different for each order.  Your assertion that he didn't know there were different orders is directly contradicted by scenes in both WoK and WoR.  He appears to know quite a bit more then your willing to give him credit for.

 

 

“ Do you know much of the others?” Teft had been the first one to figure out what Kaladin could do. He’d known before Kaladin himself had. “Not much,” Teft said with a grimace. “I know the orders didn’t always get along, despite what the official stories say. We’ll need to see if we can find someone who knows more than I do. I . . . I kept away. And the people I knew who could tell us, they aren’t around any longer.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 158). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

“I don’t actually know,” Teft said. “But the Immortal Words—these Ideals—guided everything they did. The four later Ideals were said to be different for every order of Radiants. But the First Ideal was the same for each of the ten: Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.” He hesitated. “Or so I was told.”

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 831). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Edited January 25, 2015 by Arondell

[Arondell]

 

Jasnah -  Elsecaller -          Soulcasting at a distance? (Probably not)

 

For some reason I have a vague memory that the Elsecaller special ability was a perfect sense of direction.  I can't remember where I read that though but Hoid does comment on Jasnah's sense of direction in the epilogue.

 

 

She started walking directly toward the nearest town. She had a good sense of direction, this woman.

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 1079). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

[king of nowhere]

i believe "strength of the squires" refer to the fact that his squires also get to fight better than they should. think about it. every member of bridge 4 is now an elite fighter, despite the fact that each one of them was judged unworthy by society to start with. they also had much less training than regular soldiers.

and he also did it in amaram's army, taking under his protection the smallest, weakest spearmen and consistently making them the best in the army.

as we say in italy, one can't get blood out of a turnip. while  kaladin is good at inspiring and leading people, it is possible some of that comes from the radiant power. it is possible that his power consists in getting blood out of a turnip.

Edited January 24, 2015 by king of nowhere

[skaa he/him]

If Tien was a Lightweaver, maybe he had something to do with Kaladin's initial fighting ability. He could have given Kaladin the necessary "fighting spirit", which would later be augmented by Stormlight once Syl came into the picture. Of course, this assumes that a Lightweaver's modifications persist after the Lightweaver dies.

[Dunkum he/him]

i believe "strength of the squires" refer to the fact that his squires also get to fight better than they should. think about it. every member of bridge 4 is now an elite fighter, despite the fact that each one of them was judged unworthy by society to start with. they also had much less training than regular soldiers.

and he also did it in amaram's army, taking under his protection the smallest, weakest spearmen and consistently making them the best in the army.

as we say in italy, one can't get blood out of a turnip. while  kaladin is good at inspiring and leading people, it is possible some of that comes from the radiant power. it is possible that his power consists in getting blood out of a turnip.

Well bear in mind that carrying a bridge is obscenely good strength and endurance training.  It's true that the bridgemen seem to learn the spear a bit quickly, but at least part of it is from the fact that by the time they start, they are just ridiculously physically fit.

[Savanorn he/him]

You're welcome!

 

 

Yeah... no. I'm trying to find the thread where I addressed this all before so I can avoid rehashing it all. Basically, the text doesn't support this sentiment. Kaladin had unnatural skill the very first time he ever touched a quarterstaff, his trainers were stunned the very first lesson, and when he fights the wind visibly warps around him. He talks about his hours of training, but that's his way to justify his skill to himself before he believes in magic; he eventually has "the talk" with Syl and confronts the grim reality that he's only the fighter he is because of her.

 

As for Teft... he knows very little, and most of what he knows is wrong. The people who taught him thought that just about anyone would become a Radiant if they were about to die, and so invented Rube Goldberg suicide machines. He didn't even know how one draws in Stormlight. He didn't realize there were different Orders of Radiant; he told Kaladin that Kaladin would have every Surge, and that's not how it works. Apart from "Stormlight = powers" and "You're only a Surgebinder and I don't know what you have to do to be a Radiant" Teft has not gotten one single fact correct. His role is more to show us that most of what people believe about magic is wrong, than to be the Surgepedia. Basically, at this point, if Teft explains something, I take it more-or-less on faith that it's wrong.

 

I was going to address the Teft thing more directly, but that's been done and in better detail, so suffice to say I disagree and more or less for the same reasons already stated.

 

 

As for the next part, if you are claiming that Kaladin only has superior skills because of Syl that's certainly debatable. I for one think the evidence is ambiguous, indeed, there are those who claim that Kaladin is nothing special at all (I'm not one of them, and I disagree with it but it's a stance I've seen.) Putting aside the existence of his superior skills, which I believe we both agree on, there's only really a question.

Why is Kaladin so good at fighting?

 

Thinking about it I see three real options. Kaladin is good because he's naturally talented. Kaladin is good because he's a Radiant and Kaladin is good because he trains hard. Obviously the reality could be a mix, so take it that we're discussing the dominant but not exclusive cause. 

 

So is Kaladin a natural? 

Yes. As you say, he picks up a quarterstaff and impresses all the locals at Hearthstone. Years later in Amaram's army he impresses his trainers with little prior learning, and later still (a matter of short years) he impresses both Teft, the Bridgemen and the guys in his original squad.

I'm of the opinion that Kaladin is just naturally talented at everything, though. Like, even when he is a boy the townsfolk know he's a damnation fine surgeon and Lirin straight-up says that he'll be a better surgeon than he ever was. Plus, I don't think we've yet to see Kaladin actually make a mistake or screw up an operation in a major way. 

The only real counter I could think here would be the Shardblades.

 

Second.

Does Kaladin train hard?

Yes, he does. We also know this from both what we've seen and what we've heard. I presume that Kal is a lot like his persona in WoR/WoK, and in both he is driven and pushes himself hard. We also having him say that he trained himself to the bone, figuratively, after Tien died. It's worth noting that even apparently being a natural, he still required a lot of training to actually become 'good' by his own estimation (he went from being best in the squad, to the company, to the army...or something to that effect.)

Basically, I'd argue that rather than being a justification, Kaladin simply did work extremely hard at the spear to augment his natural talents.

 

Third, and finally. Radianthood.

It's a good point, and I think the biggest issue is that we may never know truly when a Radiant begins to get gifts, the most visible being Stormlight use and Surges. We know Dalinar has been doing it unconsciously, perhaps for years. Kaladin could well do the same.

The closest to outright confirmation comes from Syl, in which she rather closely confirms that his strength is something they made together...but so does the biggest counter. That is, I believe Syl says that it was Kaladin's desire to protect his squad in Amaram's army that attracted her. So, thus his earliest quarterstaff feats cannot be the result of a Nahel bond and would bring the argument back to points one and two.  

This WoB would also count on the counter side.

 

As a last note, it is possible that all Radiants had more general skills that just the Surges and Stormlight.

It might be that superior fighting skills are something Kaladin has because he is a Radiant, but not something unique to him. It's worth noting Dalinar is also particularly talented at arms. Perhaps the division is by order, or perhaps it is based on individual character. 

 

So, in summary, I'd be inclined to acknowledge the possibility of Radianthood being important in developing potent fighting skills but it is very unlikely it is the only factor, and it I'd be inclined to say that practice and natural skill are still more important.     

 

Well bear in mind that carrying a bridge is obscenely good strength and endurance training.  It's true that the bridgemen seem to learn the spear a bit quickly, but at least part of it is from the fact that by the time they start, they are just ridiculously physically fit.

 

I believe we do also have a WoB saying that Windrunners, in general, had a greater number of squires. 

 

Just some spitballing, but maybe in general Windrunners have superior squires and that means they can either have better, or more squires. Like, I think Lightweavers often had strong mnemonics but they might not all have been the same as Shallan and her Memories.  

[Oudeis he/him]

I will find you quotes when I'm not running out the door.

 

You said there are three possibilities. Natural skill, extreme training, and outside influence. Neither of the first two make any sense from the text.

 

Kaladin's skill the very first time is supernatural. Yes, some people are naturally talented at things and pick them up quickly. But in Kaladin's first fight he showed traits that you only get from practice and procedural memory. Someone who is an actual natural at a quarterstaff could train for an hour or so and then be good enough to take on a slightly-trained upstart like Kal's friend. Without Invested help, there simply is not a way for Kal's blows to be as accurate. That's like saying if you grew an extra arm that had no sense organs in it, you'd be able to use it to type even faster than you currently do as soon as it popped up. A stick is a big, heavy, unwieldy thing that lacks proprioception. Hitting a specific target with it (a boy's knuckles) on your first try when you have had seconds to adapt yourself to its length, heft, counterbalance, etc., is beyond the bounds of what can be accomplished by a mundane "natural." A "natural" isn't someone born with actual skill, a natural is someone whose specific talents lend themselves to a new task. Kaladin might have had superior hand-eye coordination, balance, pattern recognition, a prior understanding of basic physics, and all of this would have made him a natural. There's no such thing as a person born with inherent genetic knowledge of how to hold and swing a staff.

 

As for training. You pointed out Kaladin's display in the chasm with the Bridgemen. He hasn't touched a spear in months, hasn't had the opportunity to train, really train, in 8 months (closer to 10 earth months). And he breaks out an expert series of kata without a flaw. Training gives you primarily procedural memory, the difference between an implicit and an explicit action. It's not information saved on a flash drive, able to be booted up at a moments notice. There's a reason "off-season training" exists; if basketball players could finish their last game of the season, spend months relaxing, then show up to practice over half a year later making freethrows like they'd never left... they'd do that. But that's not how training works. If Kaladin had taken even just one day, worked out the kinks, remembered the balance and moves, sure. His incredible training would have helped him get back to where he'd been in record time. But in the real world, no amount of training in literally any skill lets you not do it for nearly a year, and then use your skill to a master level without a flaw first time trying. And in case you wonder, in that very chapter, many references are made to the fact that there is absolutely no Stormlight to be had, so it's not a matter of Stormlight enhancing his skill. The only explanation is that something is granting him skill. Syl says it's the Nahel bond. Mr. Sanderson apparently says it's not. If it's not the Nahel bond, it has to be something else Invested, because mundane reasons will not explain his actions.

 

And recall, when Syl "dies", Kaladin's skill leaves him. If his skill were the result of training or "being a natural," he'd be as good, or nearly so, without her as he is with her. But without Syl, he's awful. In addition, on three occasions from four different perspectives, one of them "all the bridgemen," either the wind or Syl herself visibly warps around Kaladin when he uses the spear. However good he is at surgery, that can actually be explained by talent and practice, and most notably no one ever points out the wind swirling around him as he heals anyone.

 

You bring up how that distant day was before Syl found him. I'm sure I know a quote where they talk about it. When I return this afternoon I will try to find it for you.

[natc]

Well just because he perhaps had supernatural help the first time doesn't mean he wasn't also a natural at it.

Besides, when his skill left him along with Syl he had just fallen from fatal heights earlier and was pretty storming beat up. And probably pretty unfocused from his companion's absence.

[Oudeis he/him]

Well just because he perhaps had supernatural help the first time doesn't mean he wasn't also a natural at it.

Actually... Yeah, it sorta does. Considering how much he trained, and that he'd been recovering for weeks from his injuries, if he had natural talent, he should have been able to pull off a few simple practice moves, maybe not perfectly, but without actually dropping his weapon. He wasn't out of practice, or exhausted, and he didn't act simply rusty, he was clumsy and uncoordinated. If he were a natural, even without supernatural skill, he should have been something between "Kaladin Stormblessed" and the spaz we see him as, weak leg or no.

Regardless. Even if he were a natural, the point is that a ton of evidence from the books tells us his skill is supernaturally augmented. And it's heavily implied that this is from the Nahel bond. However, then Mr. Sanderson flat out told us it was not. So now I'm confused.

[Shlee]

He says that Kaladin's specific ability is not his fighting. I would say that that doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible that Windrunners as a general rule have some enhanced fighting abilities, just like most Lightweavers have artistic ability, Bondsmiths have leadership ability, etc.

 

Shallan's Memory taking ability is her "specific" one, but would she be as fantastic of an artist without the bond? We've never seen her from Time-Before-Pattern so we don't know for sure, but I think we're kind of arguing semantics here. My opinion is that each order has a tendency towards a "natural" talent that is augmented by the bond, and each member gains something specific to them in regards to it.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Shlee

[Oudeis he/him]

Interesting take.

[Arondell]

My take on the scene where Kaladin was trying to practice was that his head "wasn't in the game" as it were.  He was the exact opposite of "in the groove."   We know Kaladin suffers from a seasonal depressive disorder.  So he can barely walk and he is feeling generally depressed because of the weather.  On top of this he is dealing with the fact that he just killed Syl who was essentially a part of his soul and he is dealing with conflicted feelings about the whole conspiracy to kill the king.

 

I would point out once he made his decision to save the king(i.e. gained a little focus.) his spear work notably improved.  Even with his severe wound he took out two guards before they could raise an alarm. Granted he took them by surprise but that is still kind of impressive given his physical condition.  If he was as incompetent without the bond as your kind of implying then he should not have been able to do that.

[Oudeis he/him]

He was presumably "sad" following the death of Tien, and that's when he starts training in earnest. If an enormous, formative chunk of his training was done during actual depression, sorrow should if anything improve his skills by reminding him of his training. That's how procedural memory works. The way a smell or a turn-of-phrase can suddenly remind you of an entire scene from your past, the temporal lobe of your brain makes those connections. Things that remind you of what it was like during a certain time in your life will call to mind the things you did, and learned, at that time. Also... you can't just handwave it away as "aw c'mon he was really sad." He's fought while depressed, while angry, while confused, while frustrated, and while distracted. Not only is "he can't fight cuz he was sad" not how actual skills work, but it's not how Kaladin has acted a dozen other times throughout the book. Do you think he wasn't conflicted and sad and in literal shock and angry when the Shardbearer slaughtered almost his entire squad? Yet he charged in, held his own for a few seconds, then stabbed a slit barely big enough for a knife blade against an opponent with not only training, but enhanced strength and reflexes. I'm sorry, but no. There simply is no way to believe that Kaladin is naturally inhumanly skilled without any Invested intervention, but that his kryptonite is "a specifically minor amount of sorrow."

 

And as you point out, he only takes out those guards with surprise. I'm gonna re-read that scene, but the capacity to sucker-punch two people who have been tricked into thinking you're part of their assassination conspiracy doesn't mean you're a man of exceptional fighting skill.

 

Kay... just re-read the scene. It was trickery, a suckerpunch, then he literally threw himself on the second guy. Some brawling and luck knocked the second guy out, then he lurched slightly upright and fell on the first guy, cold-cocking him. So... yeah. There was no skill there. There was no subtle play, drawing out your opponent and waiting for the perfect opportune moment to strike with just enough force. He literally threw his weight against two people who were stupid enough to let him inside their guard due to trickery. I'd say that's well within the limits of what someone with no natural talent but half a decade of experience could accomplish.

[maxal she/her]

Outis, I must say, you talk a lot of sense today. I cannot stop myself from upvoting you.

[Arondell]

I should add something to perhaps clarify my position.  I don't really believe in the concept of "natural talent."  To the extent it does exist I don't think it is anything but a particular interest in specific subject.  Basically someone finds something they find particularly interesting and end up practicing it a lot.  Now if you intensively practice anything you enjoy doing for five years, particularly from a young age, your going to get pretty darn good at it.  Given that Kaladin has been intensively training in the use of the spear for five years I would think it very odd that he would not be a very competent spearman with or without the bond.

 

Everything we have heard about this in the story has made the point that it is the combination of Kaladin's skill and the bond that elevates him to his superhuman ability.

 

In TWoK Teft's thoughts on how stormlight operates.

 

Teft had only a fragmentary recollection of the things his family had tried to teach him, but those memories all agreed. Stormlight did not grant skill. It could not make a man into something he was not. It enhanced, it strengthened, it invigorated. It perfected.

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive) (p. 928). Macmillan. Kindle Edition.

 

Then in WoR we have Syl's opinion on the subject.(Despite my difference of opinion on the origin of talent.)

 

“It’s us.” “It’s cheating. Unearned.” “Nonsense,” Syl said. “You practice every day.” “I have an advantage.” “The advantage of talent,” Syl said. “When the master musician first picks up an instrument and finds music in it that nobody else can, is that cheating? Is that art unearned, just because she is naturally more skilled? Or is it genius?”

Sanderson, Brandon (2014-03-04). Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 613). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition.

 

Two very different sources within the story agree on this point.  As things stand unless some other passage from the books contradicts Teft and/or Syl I'm going with their explanation.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Arondell

[Oudeis he/him]

You're ignoring almost everything I'm saying, and in this most recent post you cherry picked two points of data and literally called it "Everything we have heard about". Since the very post I made that you were responding to refutes this statement, I'm not going to bother replying. You're not producing any arguments I haven't already presented evidence against and you're not contradicting any of the points I've brought up. Since you're ignoring the evidence I'm providing, I'm not going to provide any more evidence. Since you're not actually refuting my points, I'm confident an impartial third party re-reading our discussion will be able to draw an intelligent conclusion. In other words, unless you'd like to address the points I've brought up or introduce new arguments, I'm pretty much done.

 

For the record... natural skill is absolutely a thing, but no, not in the way you're thinking. It's not like someone is born predisposed to specifically be good at guitar. However, people are born in interesting ways. A woman might be born with genetics that provide for atypically long fingers, perfect and absolute pitch, a sense of rhythm. She picks up a guitar and her various favorable traits combine to make it something she learns easily.

 

I, for example, happen to have decent pattern recognition. It makes me a "natural" at languages. It doesn't matter if I like a language, any given language might not interest me any more than it interests my buddy Pete, and we might put the exact same number of hours into memorizing the vocabulary, grammar and syntax. And I will probably remember more than he does, not because I spent more time, but because it's a pattern, and I simply memorize patterns better than he does. Whereas I am uncoordinated. Maybe the nerves in my body are wired inefficiently, maybe the fluid in my ears responsible for my balance is terrible, maybe I have as weak proprioception as I've got eyesight, maybe it's something in my muscles. The point is, I've been on my rugby team for years. I practice twice a week and drill passes more often than that with several of my buddies, all of whom are excellent players offering great advice. Guys who first touched a rugby ball two months ago are better than I am. They've put in significantly less time, and I doubt the case could be made that they "like" it that much more than I do. I never see any game time before B side but I love the sport. They're just better than me at this one specific thing.

 

That's what a "natural" is. And they absolutely exist.

[Arondell]

Well the two points I "cherry picked" were the two occasions that people we have reason to believe know something about the bond and stormlight commented on this very issue.  Everything else is supposition and speculation.  Though for the most part well stated supposition and speculation.  The one exception in your case being your opinion on Teft which seemed to be totally off as far as I can tell.  Since I can't think of anything Teft has stated about the Radiants that was flat out wrong I don't see why we should doubt him here.  Yes, he has gaps in his knowledge and some of it is, on occasion, vague. 

 

The other one is Syl who is an Honorspren which makes it highly unlikely she would lie about anything.  Though it is possible that this might be a case of how she sees it from her point of view.

 

Also of course we seem to have a Word of Brandon floating around which seems to have some bearing on this issue without outright resolving it.

 

Fortunately I have some acquaintances in Boston who are going to try to get to Mr. Sanderson's book signing this week.  If they get the chance I've requested they ask Mr. Sanderson about this specific subject.  "Assuming all other things are the same what is Kaladin's skill level with the spear without the nahel bond?"  It doesn't seem like the kind of question that would generate a RAFO so I'm hopeful that we can get a straight answer on the subject.

[Oudeis he/him]

It's not opinion when it's backed up by multiple documented sources... If you'd like to know the evidence that Teft is frequently wrong and that everything he knows was taught to him by people who are very, very wrong, I encourage you to look earlier in this thread where I raise all these points.