Shlee Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 The gemheart was glowing with stormlight when Kal and Shallan came out of the chasms. Seems invested to me. I stand corrected. It was also in a dead one during the storm, rather than a live one. Is there anywhere in the books that mentions glowing in a live one? That'd be interesting...... Also a very valid point about the Everstorm being new.
Patrick Star Posted January 20, 2015 Posted January 20, 2015 Another thing that I don't think we've considered is whether or not the sphere is unique. Meaning, can there be a second one? How hard would it be to acquire? @Schlee Chasmfiends have a symbiosis with various spren, and could "bribe" them with stormlight from its gemheart. If this is the case, then I'd say that the heart of a live chasmfiend would be glowing. Actually, that seems very similar to surgebinding. Hmmmmmm...
The Great and Powerful Og Posted January 22, 2015 Posted January 22, 2015 Chasmfiends have a symbiosis with various spren, and could "bribe" them with stormlight from its gemheart. If this is the case, then I'd say that the heart of a live chasmfiend would be glowing. Actually, that seems very similar to surgebinding. Hmmmmmm... During a spanreed conversation between Dalinar and Jasnah it's mentioned that a drawing of a voidbringer from one of Jasnah's books looks like a chasmfiend. Maybe the Unmade or a type of voidspren can possess creatures with gemhearts and use them as batteries or something? In regards to the sphere, I support the idea that it could be some kind of beacon, maybe allowing Odium to influence Roshar from Braize? 1
Patrick Star Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 In regards to the sphere, I support the idea that it could be some kind of beacon, maybe allowing Odium to influence Roshar from Braize? Well, Sanderson did say that there was an Odious influence on Shallan's family. I suspected that it was connected to the sphere.
Oudeis he/him Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Well, Sanderson did say that there was an Odious influence on Shallan's family. I suspected that it was connected to the sphere. ...Why?
Patrick Star Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 ...Why? Just speculation. I mean, Szeth says "I planted this sphere that Gavilar gave me in Jah Keved". Shallan's family in Jah Keved goes crazy, Brandon says that there's an odious influence there, Amaram says "I'm going to start a desolation! It's exactly what Gavilar wanted!", and so on and so forth. There aren't too many options as to what that odious influence could be, and the sphere is one of them.
hoidhunter he/him Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 This is way off from what a lot of you are guessing...but...in Shadesmar...black spheres are representative of different physical objects. During one of Jasnah's trips there...she finds a sphere that actually represents the entire palace. Could this be the cognitive representation of something that was somehow pulled into the physical world? 1
Darkness he/him Posted January 25, 2015 Posted January 25, 2015 I just reread the Eshonai interlude, and I got the distinct impression that the black sphere might be similar to the gemstone that they capture a stormspren in. I used to think it held an unmade, but now I think it was something less sinister. Eshonai says that they confirmed the decision of choosing freedom and dullness over serving their Gods by killing Gavilar, and now they were risking the return of the Gods, specifically by risking the chance that stormform was a "form of power". I think Gavilar was killed because he knew a little about the forms of Parshendi, and was planning to chuck a parshman out into a high storm with his black sphere to see what happened. The Parshendi couldn't let that happen, so they killed him. I think the spren inside was a spren of power, but not necessarily an unmade, though it could be. 1
Darkness he/him Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Adding to this a little, Gavilar is mentioned as in cahoots with both Taravangian -trying to "unite the nations" (WOR p.917) and Amaram/Sons of Honor -trying to bring the desolations in order to return the Heralds and reign of the church (WOR p.1060). Also, the Parshendi note that Gavilar told them of his plan to bring back their Gods on the day he was assassinated (strikes me as odd that the Parshendi just happened to have Seth on standby, but whatever), so I think it is quite likely that Gavilar meant somehow to force a transformation of a parshman/parshendi. This would also explain why Gavilar wouldn't want the Ghostbloods (who tried to kill Amaram at the end of WOR, probably opposing the Sons of Honor) to have the stone, but was ok with giving it to Szeth after he claimed the Parshendi as his masters. He was trying to get the spren near to the Parshendi.
J-max04 Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Anyone else remember anything else that glows black? Nightblood. Just suggesting a correlation.
Patrick Star Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 @Darkness The ghostbloods didn't try to kill Amaram. It was a poison to paralyze him so that they could take him prisoner. Also, Nalan was at the feast, and could have handed Szeth's oathstone to the parshendi in order to kill Gavilar and delay the desolation. 1
Darkness he/him Posted January 27, 2015 Posted January 27, 2015 Right! Thanks Patrick Star, I overlooked that, and I actually really like the idea about Nalan! I did wonder about the phrasing of Szeth being 'hired out' to the Parshendi. Upvote for you!
Necromancer he/him Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Gavilar was concerned about people getting it, which suggests it can be used for something dangerous. We know it's heavily Invested: Of note, we have this bit from Szeth: The miners eventually tired of Took’s increasingly slurred stories. They bid him farewell, ignoring his broad hints that another cup of beer would prompt him to tell his greatest tale: that of the time when he’d seen the Nightwatcher herself and stolen a sphere that glowed black at night. That tale always discomforted Szeth, as it reminded him of the strange black sphere Gavilar had given him. He’d hidden that carefully in Jah Keved. He didn’t know what it was, but he didn’t want to risk a master taking it from him. I don't like either of the theories presented so far - Ruin, for example, was incredibly vast and powerful, and his physical form in the world was a small fraction of his power, so I wouldn't expect moving that to move him. And as for the Unmade, they're on a level with the Stormfather, so I wouldn't expect them to fit in a small sphere. Too much power. Of course, I don't have any alternative theories to present. The black sphere is a mystery. Sorry for the bump here, but I did a quick search on Szeth + Gavilar before making my own thread about the sphere. I don't seem to remember the paragrapgh you quoted here, and I just re-read TWoK. I'll check again when I get home, but wow, that changes things. I was wondering if Mr. T would ever force Szeth to relinquish the sphere since Szeth's only two oaths were to not give up his life or his blade. Though I suppose Szeth is no longer bound by his Truthlessness, is he? @Darkness The ghostbloods didn't try to kill Amaram. It was a poison to paralyze him so that they could take him prisoner. Also, Nalan was at the feast, and could have handed Szeth's oathstone to the parshendi in order to kill Gavilar and delay the desolation. What would they want with Amaram? He was just denounced by Dalinar and no longer has much power. I thought they were going to kill him out of anger at his actions. Edited January 28, 2015 by Necromancer
Patrick Star Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) @NecromancerEarlier in WoR, the ghostbloods were testing put the paralysis poison during Shallan's visit, and Mraize specifically said that they wouldn't kill Amaram. They may have struck a deal with the skybreakers to deliver him, or may have tried to gain Kaladin's sympathy. Edit: Keep in mind that the Ghostbloods kidnapping Amaram and delivering him to Nalan's skybreakers would NOT be an illegal activity. Amaram kidnapped "Taln" and already admitted to murder. For all we know, Nalan could have already have obtained a warrant for Amaram's arrest, making his speculated deal with the ghostbloods perfectly within the law. It's a citizen's arrest of a wanted criminal, not an actual kidnapping. Edited January 28, 2015 by Patrick Star 1
Moogle Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Sorry for the bump here, but I did a quick search on Szeth + Gavilar before making my own thread about the sphere. I don't seem to remember the paragrapgh you quoted here, and I just re-read TWoK. I'll check again when I get home, but wow, that changes things. I was wondering if Mr. T would ever force Szeth to relinquish the sphere since Szeth's only two oaths were to not give up his life or his blade. Though I suppose Szeth is no longer bound by his Truthlessness, is he? It's around 20% into the book, if you're looking for it specifically. As to Mr. T: he doesn't know Szeth had the sphere, so there'd be no way for him to order him to relinquish it. If ordered to, however, Szeth would have to retrieve it. He specifically worries about a master ordering Szeth to give it to him. Szeth is still Truthless in the eyes of his people, but he himself doesn't see things that way. He was exiled for claiming the Voidbringers would return, and he's been proven correct, and the Stone Shamans liars. His oathstone doesn't appear to be magical, so I don't think Szeth will be obeying anyone's orders for the next while (except maybe Nalan).
ccstat he/him Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 A few thoughts. First, Patrick, thank you for making that connection for me. I had previously assumed that the dart was loaded with kill-you poison not kidnap-you poison, but you make a very good case. The ghostbloods didn't try to kill Amaram. It was a poison to paralyze him so that they could take him prisoner.[...]Earlier in WoR, the ghostbloods were testing put the paralysis poison during Shallan's visit, and Mraize specifically said that they wouldn't kill Amaram. They may have struck a deal with the skybreakers to deliver him, or may have tried to gain Kaladin's sympathy. Regarding the Chasmfiend investiture, Unless I missed an invested chasmfiend scene somewhere. [...] Is there anywhere in the books that mentions glowing in a live one? That'd be interesting...... I don't think there is explicit mention of whether the harvested gemhearts are glowing or not, but I'll have to check. However, Brandon has said in several interviews that the gemheart-stored stormlight and/or symbiosis with spren (which I think are related) are what allow the chasmfiends to grow so huge. I take that to mean that the investiture is a necessary part of their regular activities, and every chasmfiend out there absorbs stormlight to stay alive. Granted, there are other interpretations, but this makes sense to me. Parshendi and Szeth. Also, the Parshendi note that Gavilar told them of his plan to bring back their Gods on the day he was assassinated (strikes me as odd that the Parshendi just happened to have Seth on standby, but whatever), Nalan was at the feast, and could have handed Szeth's oathstone to the parshendi in order to kill Gavilar and delay the desolation. This also strikes me as odd, and I don't think the Nalan-gave-them-the-Oathstone explanation holds water. At the end of WoR, Szeth only recognizes Nale as someone he'd maybe seen before. I think he would have remembered a former master better than that. At the feast, Szeth sees Nale eating with Elhokar and dismisses him with the thought, "The heir's feasting companions were unimportant." Also, the Parshendi had enough notice to tell Szeth to wear white to the feast (Szeth specifies that it "was a Parshendi tradition, foreign to him"), so Gavilar's revelation must have come earlier in the day, at the treaty signing, with a gap for the Listeners to deliberate and vote on a course of action (as Eshonai describes) before the feast happened. It is made clear in WoR that the Listeners recognized the Honorblade for what it was, so I can see them retaining Szeth as backup in their interactions with this new culture they don't yet understand. How they acquired him (no Alethi remembered seeing him before) and why they got rid of his stone afterward are still mysteries to me. 1
Patrick Star Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 @ccstat I was more saying that Nalan was there to ensure that the Parshendi assassinated Gavilar, and could have indirectly helped the Parshendi acquire Szeth.
Oudeis he/him Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 I checked and I feel like I know that freshly-harvested gems are Invested... there's a scene either when Sadeas collects the gem when it's not his turn but gives it away, or when Eshonai has grabbed the gem and is running but then Adolin stops her and sets up the meeting. At one or both of those times, I'm fairly sure I recall that the gem was specified as glowing.
dvoraen Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) I checked and I feel like I know that freshly-harvested gems are Invested... there's a scene either when Sadeas collects the gem when it's not his turn but gives it away, or when Eshonai has grabbed the gem and is running but then Adolin stops her and sets up the meeting. At one or both of those times, I'm fairly sure I recall that the gem was specified as glowing. There was the scene between Adolin and Sadeas after the 'date' between Adolin and Shallan at that winery where she's watching the highstorm approaches. Adolin remarks on Sadeas's ring which had an uncut gem that was glowing, that he likely had acquired from a gemheart during an unsanctioned run, not the same one as the gemheart he threw away. Edited January 29, 2015 by dvoraen
Oudeis he/him Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Inconclusive... somewhere in Way of Kings, at one of the Feasts, I think, Dalinar mentions that there's a fabrial that can manipulate how much stormlight is in gems specifically to be worn as jewelry, so we can't rule out that he deliberately Infused it a touch just for the party.
Shlee Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Didn't mean to start a side debate lol. I should have just searched the books before I opened my mouth. But here's a quote from WoR After a quick moment of decision, Sadeas lifted his arm back and hurled the gemheart across the plateau separating them. It hit the rock near Hatham and bounced along in a roll, glowing faintly. And having investiture/special spren is a very interesting point about greatshells. I wonder if all animals native to Roshar have gemhearts.... As far as the Parshendi/Szeth, I always wondered how they acquired Szeth. We know at the time of the assassination he'd rather recently been a servant to Jasnah's assassin, so he couldn't have been with the Parshendi long. But we also know that the Parshendi had contact with the Alethi for some time before the treaty, so I'd say it's highly possible that any number of the groups (Sons of Honor, Ghostbloods, Skybreakers) could have made contacts with Parshendi and been in position to "push" events in their direction if need be by recommending an assassin or explaining what a truthless was or any number of things
Patrick Star Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 @Shlee Until proven otherwise, the sons of honor either originated after the assassination or were founded by Gavilar. I'm mostly saying this because of the Amaram connection. Storms, I hate that guy...
hoidhunter he/him Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 So...on the topic of Szeth and the unmade... “Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.” Yelig-nar had broken into Nohadon's chancery and slaughtered all Nohadon's wordsmen. When Szeth closes his eyes...he hears the screams of all the people he has killed. Throughout the story...Szeth becomes more and more unhinged. Do you think there could be some kind of relationship here. Perhaps Yelig-nar is an unmade that bonds with someone who is really dangerous and homicidal (the way honor spren are attracted to honorable people)...then pushes them to become more so...feeding off of the souls of those that they kill?
Patrick Star Posted January 30, 2015 Posted January 30, 2015 @hoidhunter You're a few pages and threads late. WoB already debunked the Szeth-Yelig-nar connection, which I had been advocating for quite a while. Frankly, that just makes me even more terrified of what Szeth's going to do. If those voices are just his own insanity, then he's in even worse shape than I thought he was. That's bad. Very, very bad. 1
hoidhunter he/him Posted January 30, 2015 Author Posted January 30, 2015 @hoidhunter You're a few pages and threads late. WoB already debunked the Szeth-Yelig-nar connection, which I had been advocating for quite a while. Frankly, that just makes me even more terrified of what Szeth's going to do. If those voices are just his own insanity, then he's in even worse shape than I thought he was. That's bad. Very, very bad. Bummer...I thought that I was onto something there...well patrick...upvote for brutal honesty...
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