Discussion: Allomantic Efficiency

[Kipper he/him]

This thread is for discussing questions and theories such as:

Does Elend burn metals at a higher rate of efficiency than Vin, due to the fact that he had a lerasium nugget?

Rip me apart, people

[A Joe in the Bush]

I haven't seen anything in the books or in MAG that would suggest that. Where are you getting that from?

[Moogle]

Nothing in the books indicates Elend goes through metals at a ridiculous rate. Based on the number of koloss Elend and Vin can control - a thousand can be comfortably controlled by Vin, and Elend can handle ten thousand (someone correct me if I'm wrong on these numbers, I just ctrl+f'd "control" in HoA) - Elend should be putting out at least 10x as more power. If Allomantic power is a linear function of metals burned, then we should expect Elend to burn through his metals at least ten times as fast. This should have been noted, as it is extremely significant. Elend wasn't much of a Mistborn, but this was never mentioned.

 

My speculative conclusion, therefore, is that Elend is simply more efficient with the Investiture that comes through his link to Preservation. This would fit in with Surgebinding, and suggests that by burning lerasium/becoming a stronger Mistborn, you are more tightly bound to the Shard.

 

Of course, it's possible that power is not a linear function. The first thing that came to mind for me was that Elend probably should be burning through metals faster. It's only on reflection that it seems to me he is not. The mechanics of duralumin suggest that if you want more power you need to burn more metals, after all.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Moogle

[Kipper he/him]

Sorry sorry sorry. I wasn't clear enough. Here is what some of us were discussing on a different thread:

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/22462-portland-signing-116/

Anyway, after completely mucking up that thread, I made a topic here. Perhaps if you read the discussion in that thread, this thread will make more sense to you. This was sort if meant to be a continuation of the other discussion.

[Dunkum he/him]

My inclination is to agree with moogle on this.  Elend is more efficiently using the investiture that he has than Vin would be.  so after looking at the other thread you linked to I would put it this way:

 

Elend is burning his metals at the same rate as anyone else, and the power he gets from them is the same, but his ability to use that power is enhanced.  So maybe for a Vin 1 gram of Pewter equates to 1 arbitrary unit of investiture, which equates to a 100% increase in physical ability for 10 minutes (all numbers here pretty much arbitrary for example purposes).  I would say that for Elend, that same gram of pewter gets the same 1au of investiture, but might give a 150% increase in physical ability for 10 minutes.

 

my second inclination is that, if that isnt right, then i expect that Elend is drawing more power for the same amount of metal: 1g pewter equates to 1.5 au investiture and thus to 150% increase of physical ability for 10 minutes.

 

I think the least likely thing is that he is actually burning through his metals faster: 1 g pewter gives 1.5 au investiture equating to 150% increase but over 6.66 minutes, instead of 10.  I think this least likely because it seems to me that it would have been mentioned in the book if Elend was actually burning metals faster than vin was.

 

 

also a side track question that occurred to me while I was typing this up: the force produced by burning steel is proportional to mass right (or at least increases as the coinshot/mistborn's mass increases)?  given this, does a person's mass change the rate at which they burn through metals (well at least iron and steel)?  For example, assume kelsier is 2x vins mass.  if vin does a regular push (not particularly controlled, but not flared either) she produces some force, if Kelsier does the same, he produces twice the force (from twice the mass), so does he also burn twice the steel?  or is he using it twice as efficiently? or something else entirely?

[Kaymyth she/her]

also a side track question that occurred to me while I was typing this up: the force produced by burning steel is proportional to mass right (or at least increases as the coinshot/mistborn's mass increases)?  given this, does a person's mass change the rate at which they burn through metals (well at least iron and steel)?  For example, assume kelsier is 2x vins mass.  if vin does a regular push (not particularly controlled, but not flared either) she produces some force, if Kelsier does the same, he produces twice the force (from twice the mass), so does he also burn twice the steel?  or is he using it twice as efficiently? or something else entirely?

 

From what I understand of steelpushes and ironpulls, it isn't that mass increases the force, it's that if you push or pull on something that has more mass than you do, you will wind up being the thing that moves rather than the anchor.  So, to take your example, Vin could very well be pushing with more strength/force than Kelsier does, but because she's lighter, she winds up moving herself instead of him.

[Oudeis he/him]

Moogle: I'm not sure I agree with your numbers. Basically, I'm expressing the viewpoint that Elend is burning faster, but not fast enough to warrant pointing out.

 

We don't know that a thousand is Vin's limit. She takes a thousand with no problem; we're given no indication if she could have easily taken twice that many, or if that was near her limit. Perhaps I'll check the end of Well of Ascension and see how many koloss she's got attacking Straff...

 

Ah ha. Chapter 55. Cett's men estimate that Vin is in charge of twelve thousand Koloss.

 

So... yes, Elend is more powerful. I do not, however, think he is 10x as powerful. Maybe he's not even twice as powerful. I think that, since Vin doesn't experiment with her metals and make notes of burn times and when she flares and all that, and given that she tends to specialize in different metals than Elend, that the model is plausible. His burn rate is somewhat faster, but not enough to be shockingly apparent.

 

Keep in mind, I'm simply proposing an alternate model. I'm not even sure which of the two models I think is actually more accurate.

 

I will reiterate what I've said before. Assuming that Elend gets more power out of the same quantity of metal (or even that he can use that amount of power to greater effect) is a departure from the facts we know to be absolutely true. We have seen two different phenomena whereby someone gains great power accompanied with a faster burn rate. If it turns out that Elend isn't burning through metal any faster and is simply changing the power coefficient, that would be a matter of huge impact to our understanding of allomancy.

 

For this reason, I think Panda has come up with an excellent question to ask.

[Moogle]

@Ouedeis:
 

Thanks for pointing out my numbers were wrong. I was hoping someone would get solid ones. That soundly kills my theory. I was really not sure on that.

 

---

 

Though, the koloss numbers are hard to work with. Is there a limit to how many you can control once, and is it related to Allomancy? Keep in mind that you can control koloss even after you're done burning things - perhaps we should look at how many koloss can be acquired per second. Elend takes a thousand easy with a duralumin Soothing, but apparently this was not something Vin was capable of. This suggests that, because Vin and Elend could just eat the same amount of zinc/brass and burn duralumin, that Elend simply has a stronger base power he can acquire per unit metal. Scene:

“Elend!” Vin said. “Now!”

The emperor turned away from the dying Inquisitor, and she could see the look of concentration on his face. Once, Vin had seen the Lord Ruler affect an entire city square full of people with his emotional Allomancy. He had been stronger than she was; far stronger—even—than Kelsier.

She couldn’t see Elend burn duralumin, then brass, but she could feel it. Feel him pressing on her emotions as he sent out a general wave of power, Soothing thousands of koloss at once. They all stopped fighting. In the distance, Vin could make out the haggard remnants of Elend’s peasant army, standing in an exhausted circle of bodies. Ash continued to fall. It rarely stopped, these days.

 

 

That said, I do think Elend is more than 2x as powerful, though unfortunately the evidence is quite lacking. Keep in mind that he's around the strength of TLR according to Sazed. (Sazed may be wrong, but I think he's fairly trustworthy, even though our WoBs on whether or not TLR used a lerasium bead or directly changed himself with the Well are off.) He should be capable of affecting metals in bodies based on that, something Vin's not even close to.

 

In the old days, one Soother could take control of a kandra. However, in the new days, you need multiple people. I would interpret this to mean that 2 people might not be enough, which suggests a Soother in the old times was 2x+ more powerful.

 

Now, knowing full well that this doesn't support my position quite as well as it could (we've had discussions on this, I ask that we bring it to PM here if you're going to remark on it on how shifty the evidence is):

It assumed that its weight would transfer through the coin, then hit Elend’s weight, since Elend would be Pushing as well. Two Allomancers of near-similar weight, shoving against each other. They would both be thrown back—the Inquisitor to attack Vin, Elend into a pile of koloss. Except, the Inquisitor didn’t anticipate Elend’s Allomantic strength. How could it? Elend did stumble, but the Inquisitor was thrown away with a sudden, violent Push.

 

If we base Allomantic collisions like this as a function of weight in elastic collisions - if the thing you're pushing is 10 lb. and you're 90 lb., you get 10% of the Push, and the thing you're pushing gets 90% of the Push - this suggests Elend's far more than 2x "heavier" than this inquisitor. (Assumptions: Allomantic "heaviness" scales linearly with your own weight and linearly with your Allomantic power.)

 

Yes, I'm aware this is built on speculation, you're welcome to throw this out the window, but quite frankly this is the only tool I have to analyze Pushes mathematically that makes sense to me. I don't trust the conclusion, but I think there's a decent chance it's true.

 

Vin is always 'wowed' by Elend, which is just not something I think makes sense if he's only, say, 1.5x stronger than her.

 

(Unfortunately, we never get to see Elend burn duralumin + steel as far as I know. That would be a useful experiment. I looked very specifically for that. )

 

That said, if it's not an order of magnitude more powerful from Elend, my argument that everyone should have figured out and remarked on Elend burning metals faster falls flat. If Elend just goes through metals 2x faster, then I don't feel they would have remarked on that.

 

---

 

In summary, I currently lean towards Elend burning the same amount of metals, simply due to the fact that he used duralumin + took over a bunch of koloss, and Vin didn't do that. If power is entirely a function of how much metal you can burn, we should expect Vin + Elend to get the same amount of power from a duralumin burn of metals... but Vin specifically leaves Elend to do it to the koloss, then is 'wowed' and remarks on how TLR Soothed an entire city square of people while Elend does something similar.

 

My current beliefs are, if I had to give numbers: 60% chance Elend gets more power per unit metal than Vin does (whether by improved efficiency or increased Investiture draw per unit metal), 30% chance they both get the same, and 10% chance something else is going on.

 

I agree that someone should ask Brandon to get to the bottom of this. It's quite interesting. I think I'd phrase the question something like, "Why does Elend have more powerful Pushes than Vin? Is he burning through metals faster, or gaining more Investiture per unit of metal burned, or using the Investiture he gets more efficiently than Vin?" A little bit wordy, but it would leave things very clear to Brandon on what is being asked, which is something I think most WoBs could strive to do better, given how many misunderstood questions we get.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Moogle

[Oudeis he/him]

First, let me say that you make a number of excellent points. In fact, just last night in bed it occurred to me that we see Elend burn duralumin and brass, and still achieve a greater effect than Vin could, which does not mesh very well with my proposed model (the only possible recovery would be if he's actually better at duralumin, and while Vin burns through her store in five seconds, he does it in two, more than doubling how powerful it is for those two seconds, but at this point I'm justifying; it would be suspicious that they not mention that his duraboosts are faster than hers).

 

Ultimately, we're in agreement. I think this is a good question to ask that will give us interesting information either way, and even just because Panda asked about it I've thought about allomancy in some interesting new ways I've never thought before, so even if we get a RAFO I'm happy.

 

That said... I am going to provide a few more points of data.

 

We do have WoB that feruchemy has a way to boost allomancy. We also have WoB that the Lord Ruler used hemalurgy to produce some of his more spectacular effects. All I'm saying is, Elend may have been as allomantically powerful as the Lord Ruler, but that's not quite the same thing as saying we can look at stuff Rashek did and know with any certainty that Elend was also capable of it. By definition, the upper limit of what TLR did (his most spectacular effects, e.g. Soothing thousands of people or affecting metal inside someone's body) which we'd need to look at to gauge Elend's upper limit are the ones most suspect.

 

When it comes to affecting Koloss, I wonder if it was the number of individuals being affected, or simply the area? Could Vin not have reached far enough to get the whole army? If Elend had even a quarter longer radius than Vin, he'd be covering significantly more area and therefore many, many more Koloss at once. Yes, Vin does mention that the soothing itself is also stronger, but is that the reason he's getting more at once?

 

We do know it takes multiple Soothers to take down a koloss. Assuming that this means Soothers are now less than half as strong as they once were forces us to assume that the process of "ganging up" to Soothe a koloss is at peak efficiency. I'm 6' tall. My buddy is 5'6". There are reasonably few ways that the two of us together could easily get to 11'6". The process of me lifting him up is simply not that efficient. We have not the first idea how the model of multiple soothing would work (frankly we have one reference from a madman that it even DOES work). It might be a purely additive situation like five interns all taking a pile of envelopes to stuff. There might be a law of diminishing returns as each new Soother adds less and less. It might be an inefficient process from the start where each Soother after the first can only contribute 10% of their power. Your point, however, is a good one. I sorta want to ask about this anyway in relation to my question about "can Lurchers work together the way Soothers apparently can" so my apologies if I was a bit verbose on this topic; I've given it prior thought.

 

Most of your other points still stand, however. You make a convincing argument. In case we do get RAFO'd, I think you've convinced me that Elend prolly does actually gain more power from the same metal than Vin does, which blows my mind and completely changes how I used to think about the model of allomancy.

 

Follow up question, which someone else has already pointed out; a bit of a "splitting hairs" difference but still interesting. If Elend gets more power, is it that his connection to Preservation actually ekes more "units" of Investiture from the same mass of metal, or that his spiritweb is simply more efficient at using the same amount of Investiture to greater effect?

 

Random, insane speculation... what if this was Ruin's plan? What if Vin is less powerful because she takes the same amount of Investiture as Elend, but his spiritweb is airtight, and she leaks power invisibly? What if Ruin has "ruined" people's spiritwebs over the years, leaking more of Preservation's power into the atmosphere. The more time passes, the leakier people are, the more Mistings use their power... the stronger the Mists get? Until they swamp the land and kill the crops?

 

No that's a terrible idea cuz the Deepness came in the time of Alendi before there were any Mistborn... wait that's another interesting point. Alendi's power. He was insanely weak. He never knew he had powers, and would never have thought to drink any more bronze that he'd get from groundwater. Would he have had to drink a whole vial just to get the teensiest bit of power and be able to sense the Well? Or could he burn it just as efficiently as Vin, his rate was simply that much slower, so he could burn a trace of it for hours and was only able to Seek something as loud as the Well?

 

EDIT: One final point: Rashek did not burn lerasium.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Oudeis

[Dunkum he/him]

From what I understand of steelpushes and ironpulls, it isn't that mass increases the force, it's that if you push or pull on something that has more mass than you do, you will wind up being the thing that moves rather than the anchor.  So, to take your example, Vin could very well be pushing with more strength/force than Kelsier does, but because she's lighter, she winds up moving herself instead of him.

I seem to recall on of the benefits that Wax had, as a crasher, is that at higher weights he could push harder.  It's possible i just assumed that, however, I'd have to go back and check.

[Moogle]

EDIT: One final point: Rashek did not burn lerasium.

 

You're going to hate me. I apologize. WoB:

Q: What’s lerasium?

B: That is the bead of metal that Elend finds at the end of Book 2, that Vin finds and gives to Elend.

Q: Oh so there were only two and the Lord Ruler kind of left it there?

B: There actually were a bunch of them, and the first Mistborn came from people who ate that. The Lord Ruler took one for himself and he left others there to use if he needed them.

(source)

 

This is from the SLCC signing, which is newer than that WoB.

 

I hate contradictory WoBs.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

I've always assumed that metals were merely a hose that Investiture comes through. With the Allomancer having a hole, or a crack, which the metal fits into. I imagine that Lerasium just increases the size of the hole in the Allomancer so that more Investiture can fit through at any one time. Elend may Burn metals faster but I doubt it, the Investiture doesn't come from the metal it just flows through it ( IIRC ).

[Bronzeheart he/him]

I seem to recall on of the benefits that Wax had, as a crasher, is that at higher weights he could push harder.  It's possible i just assumed that, however, I'd have to go back and check.

 

I believe you're right. When Wax tapped all of his weight at once at the end of AoL, he weighed enough to smash an entire building with his Push. It's almost like that card game War in that the higher card (or weight in this instance) wins the battle. When the weights are equal, then it probably comes down to who is pushing harder rather than luck.

[Oudeis he/him]

You're going to hate me. I apologize. WoB:

 

This is from the SLCC signing, which is newer than that WoB.

 

I hate contradictory WoBs.

 

So we officially have no idea whether he burned lerasium or not.

 

I seem to recall on of the benefits that Wax had, as a crasher, is that at higher weights he could push harder.  It's possible i just assumed that, however, I'd have to go back and check.

 

 

I believe you're right. When Wax tapped all of his weight at once at the end of AoL, he weighed enough to smash an entire building with his Push. It's almost like that card game War in that the higher card (or weight in this instance) wins the battle. When the weights are equal, then it probably comes down to who is pushing harder rather than luck.

 

Explaining the physics might get somewhat into the weeds.

 

Wax does not push any harder for being heavier. Steel adds a force that increases the distance between you and the metal against which you push. The reason Wax seems to push better is because he is heavier, which is helpful in most, but not all, circumstances. It's basically like getting ultimate leverage. Give me a big enough lever and a place to stand and I shall move the world.

 

The "destroy the building" trick is interesting. He's not actually pushing over a whole building all at once, he's just pushing on a bunch of individual nails.

 

Vin has fired off dozens of coins at once. They weigh practically nothing and are braced against air, so they all fly away from her, because the difference in weight is negligible.

 

If Vin were to fly up in the air over a building and push on every nail, her weight would be spread across every single nail. If it were in the hundreds, that would be less than a pound per nail. The energy of her steelpush is shoving them apart. She's pushing on hundreds of things at once, so the energy for every individual steelpush is multiplied, but every individual nail is only taking on a fraction of her weight. The brace against the wood of the structure is enough to counterbalance the pound or so of weight, so she goes up.

 

Wax's Pushes are no stronger; they don't have to be. He's simply pushing against a hundred nails all at once. The energy is trying to increase the distance between him and every nail. Because he weighs so much, however, the division puts hundreds of pounds of weight on one side of the equation, instead of a pound per nail. The energy will shove Wax and the nail apart, no stronger than it shoved Vin and the nail apart, the only difference being that because Wax is "braced" by his incredible weight, the nail is what gives.

 

Does that make sense? I understand this, but I don't know that I'm explaining it well.

[Kipper he/him]

Does that make sense? I understand this, but I don't know that I'm explaining it well.

That's great. I understand something that's been bothering me now. You are probably one of the best explainers on 17s, Oudeis.

Edited January 16, 2015 by inexorablePanda

[Bronzeheart he/him]

Does that make sense? I understand this, but I don't know that I'm explaining it well.

 

That's actually one of the best explanations of Allomantic mechanics that I've heard. It definitely makes it easier for me to understand. Thanks.

[Dunkum he/him]

Does that make sense? I understand this, but I don't know that I'm explaining it well.

Seems to, but I'll have to look it over again when I'm not about to go to sleep to make sure I understood it correctly/have time to think it over and come up with any questions.  If I'm reading it right, you're basically saying that the extra weight/mass isn't increasing his push, just increasing his resistance to the push

[Kaymyth she/her]

Does that make sense? I understand this, but I don't know that I'm explaining it well.

 

You pretty much, ahem, hit the nail on the head. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Seems to, but I'll have to look it over again when I'm not about to go to sleep to make sure I understood it correctly/have time to think it over and come up with any questions.  If I'm reading it right, you're basically saying that the extra weight/mass isn't increasing his push, just increasing his resistance to the push

 

The main point to take away is that any Steelpush adds a certain amount of force that tries to make two bodies be farther apart via the path of least resistance. From that point on, it's nothing but figuring out where the energy goes.

 

EDIT: Like really aggressive jelly in a sandwich where the bread is lead weights.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Oudeis

[A Joe in the Bush]

You pretty much, ahem, hit the nail on the head. 

I see what you did there. Unfortunately, I can't upvote this since I've reached my Quota.

[Kipper he/him]

I see what you did there. Unfortunately, I can't upvote this since I've reached my Quota.

Awww. You're such a nice guy.

I'll do it for you.

[Kaymyth she/her]

Awww. You're such a nice guy.

I'll do it for you.

 

Gosh, you guys.  Allowing me to profit over a bad joke that I didn't even try to resist making.  I mean, it was bad enough that even Wayne might have brought the hammer down...

[Kipper he/him]

Gosh, you guys.  Allowing me to profit over a bad joke that I didn't even try to resist making.  I mean, it was bad enough that even Wayne might have brought the hammer down...

Well...I'm sorry?

Unfortunately I can't down vote that post now...

[Kaymyth she/her]

Well...I'm sorry?

Unfortunately I can't down vote that post now...

 

Well, at least you missed the second one.  I can feel less bad now about corrupting young minds.

[Kipper he/him]

Well, at least you missed the second one. I can feel less bad now about corrupting young minds.

No no, I got it. I just thought you wouldn't want it mentioned. Here, I'll downvote it for you.

Edit: actually, I've reached my quota of downvotes. Sorry, Kobold King.

Edited January 16, 2015 by inexorablePanda