kari-no-sugata Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 This post is the result of a thought process that kicked off after reading: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2015/01/words-of-radiance-reread-chapter-23 Specifically this WoB: The first one was actually in context of a slightly larger question, but he specifically said that a Radiant’s bond gives them more than just the Surges. I used Shallan as an example, and he confirmed that her Memories are indeed an artifact of the bond, not something that is natural to her, and not something that is a result of the Surges at all. Pattern was not drawn by that ability, but was the cause of it. This isn't at all surprising to me, but it's great to have confirmation. Though Shallan's ability to take Memories is obvious there's more to it than that - she can release those Memories either by drawing it out or mentally letting it go. I think it's highly likely that her mapping ability is similarly related. And so on... but it not a result of Surges so would likely be related to Pattern's innate abilities - he certainly has a good memory. I'm sure there'll be lots more speculation of what Syl gives Kaladin. But here's the thing: having a really good memory can have downsides. Remember how in tWoK the deaths of the robbers that Jasnah killed were "burned into her" - she couldn't release those memories. There's also a line earlier in the book with "memories attacked her", referring to her father's death - it had been 6 months for her at the time but she's still really struggling with just the memory of it. The most extreme example is her mother's death - even for most of WoR just thinking about it can cause Shallan to have a mental shutdown. When she was younger those mental shutdowns could last hours apparently. It's sometimes said that "time heals all wounds" but in Shallan's case it takes a lot longer. Somewhat speculatively, consider it this way: Shallan has trouble dealing with her painful memories not just because they're very painful but because she remembers them vividly due to her connection to Pattern. Just to be clear: I'm not blaming Pattern for anything. I'm just trying to think through the implications and personally, I really dislike the theory that spren are actively seeking cause humans pain 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Kal's been through (and has seen) much worse, and remembers it almost as vividly as Shallan, and he's worked on getting past it. Get over it, you wuss (I'm talking about Shallan). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maetel39 Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Kal's been through (and has seen) much worse, and remembers it almost as vividly as Shallan, and he's worked on getting past it. Get over it, you wuss (I'm talking about Shallan). Pretty hard to get over killing your parents, especially at eleven when your own parent is trying to kill you.... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 They both suffered terribly but in different ways Kaladin physically Shallan mentally. Yeah Kaladin seems to get help with his fighting through his bond with Syl. Shallan gets her memory through the same way, I think it is because the Windrunners specilize in fighting while while im assuming the Lightweavers are scholars. She needs a strong mental image to form her Lightweaving and her drawings for the moment. (i think she has a temporary block, like Nynaeve's in WOT) as the series progresses im pretty sure she'll get over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 Pretty hard to get over killing your parents, especially at eleven when your own parent is trying to kill you.... They both suffered terribly but in different ways Kaladin physically Shallan mentally. It's also pretty hard to get over your brother dying in your arms. It's also pretty hard to get over hundreds (thousands?) of helpless bridgemen dying in front of your eyes while you're unable to do anything about it and know that the next arrow fired could leave you in agony for hours, lying on the ground while the survivors just walk past you, and having to do the same to the bridgemen injured after you survive. Yeah, Kaladin definitely has a ton of mental trauma, likely more than Shallan does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maetel39 Posted January 10, 2015 Report Share Posted January 10, 2015 I was not saying that Kaladin has not suffered and have not said who has suffered more. I think thats debatable either way. I was pointing out that the kind of trauma that Shallan has gone through is not something you just snap out of. First she has the trauma of a parent literaly trying to kill her. Which alone would give everyone issues. Then she kills her mother in self defense and this is by the time she is only eleven! Then for years she sees her father become this monster, beating the household and emotionaly manipulating her by holding their saftey on her behavior. Then to top if off she kills her father in defense of her brother and his fiance. All this by the time she is 16. I think its pretty remarkable that she is still functioning at all. More on topic, I think that having such a good memory could be a hindrance for bad memories. Maybe thats why she became so good at blocking them so well. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) I hardly think it's a competition I was merely trying to point out that they have both suffered greatly Kaladins when people trying to beat the will to resist out of him and brutal physical labour and Shallan forced to kill her own mother and the emotional abuse at the hands of her own family. It's left them both broken and scarred. Haha I'll say it's definitely a curse but the whole blocking it out and staring at the wall was hard to read. I got a little annoyed with it to tell the truth. Besides the character who got it worst is Taln in my book LOL She's never been in my list of top SA characters and the whole reveal of who killed Helaran in the future I can see coming probably won't help. Though I lked her best when she was dealing with the ghostbloods. I wonder what defining attributes the other KR are going to possess. Edited January 11, 2015 by WEZ313 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 So, does Lift get a heightened sense of empathy for those around her because of hee connection to Wyndel (that's the spren, right?)? That would be awesome. What does Renarin get? A more powerful mind? And then what does Dalinar get? I bet it's more of an ability to let him lead. Maybe that's why he is seen as a force by those around him in WoR. Shallan remarks that specifically in her first meeting with him. This is a really intriguing concept. What other KR do we know of that we could try to guess what other things they gain from their spren? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 @ArthurDent genius I was thinking that maybe Dalinars gift is the fact that he seems to be that he seems to hold everything together I get that whole force of nature vibe as well. Renarin seems to have a gift with numbers IIRC @ the OathGate truthseer via math. LOL In not sure about Lift.. I think you nailed the whole compassion thing, wasn't her oath I will remember those who are gone or something? I think leadership is one of Jezeian/windrunner traits I see that charisma in Kaladins as well as big D though. I'm really interested in finding out, the wait for SA3 seems to be getting harder :'( 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kal's been through (and has seen) much worse, and remembers it almost as vividly as Shallan, and he's worked on getting past it. Get over it, you wuss (I'm talking about Shallan). Kaladin really hasn't worked on getting past it. That's why he has the unstoppable anger towards all light-eyes that caused him to kill Syl in WoR. Shallan avoided accepting the reality of what had happened, and Kaladin turned to anger and blaming others for all of the bad things that occurred (remember his epiphany? that it wasn't some curse causing him to live and suffer, it was him not doing as much as he could that caused people to die?). Neither of those methods is really "getting over it" or "healthy." The continually added stress of fighting a war that is to prevent the literal end of the world probably doesn't make this any easier, either. And saying that just because Person A has experienced worse trauma than Person B, that Person B should just 'get over it' is monumentally naive, and damaging to everyone that has had to deal with that kind of rust in their life. (Granted, these are fictional characters, but it doesn't take much imagination to see someone transferring this same type of thinking to real life--because it happens every day already.) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Kaladin really hasn't worked on getting past it. That's why he has the unstoppable anger towards all light-eyes that caused him to kill Syl in WoR. I thought he kind of got over his 'unstoppable anger towards all light-eyes' the moment he sait the thirs Oath and got Syl back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen Rope he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Not really, I think is just got better. At the end he basically thinks "Storms, I'm a light eyes now" when someone points out his eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok he/him Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 I thought he kind of got over his 'unstoppable anger towards all light-eyes' the moment he sait the thirs Oath and got Syl back. I thought he had worked past it when he turned back to save Dalinar, Adolin, and the remnants of their army at the end of WoK. I was wrong, then. I'll not be making any presumptions in that regard again without definitive proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider she/her Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Not really, I think is just got better. At the end he basically thinks "Storms, I'm a light eyes now" when someone points out his eyes. I'm not saying that he suddenly loves all lighteyes and is best pals with every one of them. I'm just saying that I think that his anger towards them is no longer 'unstoppable'. I think he's done with revenges etc. and his 'super-hatred' againts all lighteyes, he started to see reason. And when someone pointed out his blue eyes at the end of WoR, and Kaladin thought 'Storm it' I actually think he meant something like 'I used to care about such things, now I don't. There are more important things now, no matter if I'm lighteyes or darkeyes." Or something like that. But maybe I've got the wrong idea. I thought he had worked past it when he turned back to save Dalinar, Adolin, and the remnants of their army at the end of WoK. I was wrong, then. I'll not be making any presumptions in that regard again without definitive proof. Well, for me saving Dalinar at the end of TWoK never looked like it, but now his change seems pretty definite for me, but I agree that proof would be nice. However if Kaladin suddenly turns around and starts behaving as Kaladin from beginning of WoR, and again tries to pursue "revenge" and "justice" against any "evil lighteyes", I'm going to be severly dissapointed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 11, 2015 Report Share Posted January 11, 2015 Wow, I was mean. Really, really mean. Got to be better than that. What bothers me about Shallan is who she blames. She... doesn't seem to be digging deep enough, she's stuck on the surface. She doesn't ask "Why?" enough. It's troubling that she blames Pattern for the deaths of her parents, and seems content to fixate on the first cause that comes up. That's the big thing that Kaladin does "better" than Shallan: He analyzes the situation to a much larger extent. In the bridge crews, it would have been SO easy for Kaladin to heap blame on the Parshendi archers (in addition to Sadeas), but realizes that they are not at fault for what's going on. Shallan sees Amaram with Helaran's shardblade, and immediately decides that he's a much worse person for killing her brother, even after thinking that he (Amaram) was likely defending himself. Mraize mentions that Helaran had gone off to join the Skybreakers, and Shallan doesn't even entertain this information. And don't get me started about her mother... I know that Kaladin was very wrong in giving Moash clearance to assassinate Elhokar, but he (Elhokar) DID demand for Kaladin's execution, even after Kal saved him from the Assassin in White, which is something that nobody had EVER managed to do. Add on top that he approved Roshone's relocation to Hearthstone as a suitable punishment for murder, and it's almost understandable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 It's left them both broken and scarred. Cracked, not broken. That's what let the spren in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 Wow, I was mean. Really, really mean. Got to be better than that. What bothers me about Shallan is who she blames. She... doesn't seem to be digging deep enough, she's stuck on the surface. She doesn't ask "Why?" enough. It's troubling that she blames Pattern for the deaths of her parents, and seems content to fixate on the first cause that comes up. That's the big thing that Kaladin does "better" than Shallan: He analyzes the situation to a much larger extent. In the bridge crews, it would have been SO easy for Kaladin to heap blame on the Parshendi archers (in addition to Sadeas), but realizes that they are not at fault for what's going on. Shallan sees Amaram with Helaran's shardblade, and immediately decides that he's a much worse person for killing her brother, even after thinking that he (Amaram) was likely defending himself. Mraize mentions that Helaran had gone off to join the Skybreakers, and Shallan doesn't even entertain this information. And don't get me started about her mother... I know that Kaladin was very wrong in giving Moash clearance to assassinate Elhokar, but he (Elhokar) DID demand for Kaladin's execution, even after Kal saved him from the Assassin in White, which is something that nobody had EVER managed to do. Add on top that he approved Roshone's relocation to Hearthstone as a suitable punishment for murder, and it's almost understandable. OMG agreed on my reread i found myself a little annoyed with her again, i dont hate her i just find her a little exasperating. I think you are spot on with your analysis about her blaming pattern and ignoring Helaran and the Skybreakers! Ignoring issues seems to be a running theme for her, Ignoring her brothers... oh he's not so bad he just enjoys watching and participating in slaughtering household pets but it's not his fault.. I'll poison then throttle my father to death.........but i'll hold it against Jasnah for killing those men who tried to kill and rape us... Tyn attacked me and ill kill her...........but it's not okay for Amaram to kill my brother who tried to kill him. How dare Kaladin insult Adolin using words he doesn't understand.... it wont stop me from doing it to anybody who disagrees with me. Cracked, not broken. That's what let the spren in. I completely agree getting your crack filled is an important part of the Nahel Bond. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 OMG agreed on my reread i found myself a little annoyed with her again, i dont hate her i just find her a little exasperating. I think you are spot on with your analysis about her blaming pattern and ignoring Helaran and the Skybreakers! Ignoring issues seems to be a running theme for her, Ignoring her brothers... oh he's not so bad he just enjoys watching and participating in slaughtering household pets but it's not his fault.. I'll poison then throttle my father to death.........but i'll hold it against Jasnah for killing those men who tried to kill and rape us... Tyn attacked me and ill kill her...........but it's not okay for Amaram to kill my brother who tried to kill him. How dare Kaladin insult Adolin using words he doesn't understand.... it wont stop me from doing it to anybody who disagrees with me. Yeah, I'm completely terrified about when she finds out that it was Kaladin who killed Helaran. With Amaram, she took the stance "Amaram is a massive douche BECAUSE he 'killed' my brother in honorable combat" when the correct stance was "Amaram is a massive douche who happened to 'kill' my brother in honorable combat." Combine that attitude with the "Kaladin lied to you" bug, throw in the "Dalinar did too" worm, and something REALLY bad happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 12, 2015 Report Share Posted January 12, 2015 I agree I'm hoping their time together in the chasm will help sooth that but like we've established she becomes a little short sighted when her family is involved. Balat, jushu and whikim (not sure how it's spelt) all have their faults but she seems to gloss over them, understandable that's what being family is but she always idolised Helaran and I think she will see the fact that Dalinar and Kal didn't tell her as a betrayal. Brandon has always said that he is fond of conflict in relationships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dvoraen Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 (edited) My take on this: - Shallan's repressed Memories (capital intentional) of her past are basically getting in the way of her progression as a Lightweaver. We know from The Way of Kings that she has an actual, finite limit to her Memory taking, that it takes up some space in her head until she draws them out on paper.* Her speaking of difficult truths about herself -- in other words, admitting aspects of herself -- releases them from her psyche and lets the bond fill in. Definitely not beneficial if you're holding in trauma all this time and not letting it out, quite literally in this case. - By extension, the answer about Pattern being the implicit cause of her Memory ability is why I claim the Nahel spren emulate other traits the Heralds got, courtesy of Cultivation. If it ain't the Surges doin' it, and the Honorblades are what the spren primarily emulated, where did the tertiary, Order-specific abilities come from? *goes back to pointing emphatically at Cultivation* * I still assert that this ability is really establishing Connection to what she's seeing, thus why the illusions and drawing do so well at capturing the scene. Edited January 13, 2015 by dvoraen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maetel39 Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 I agree I'm hoping their time together in the chasm will help sooth that but like we've established she becomes a little short sighted when her family is involved. Balat, jushu and whikim (not sure how it's spelt) all have their faults but she seems to gloss over them, understandable that's what being family is but she always idolised Helaran and I think she will see the fact that Dalinar and Kal didn't tell her as a betrayal. Brandon has always said that he is fond of conflict in relationships.? Dalinar doesnt know the connection between helaran and kaladin yet, does he? Am i missing something? I remember Kaladin realizing, but i dont remember him telling Dalinar. Its been awhile since i read it so i maybe i'm wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RawToast225 he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 No, you're right. When did Dalinar lie to Shallan? I'm confused there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 My bad i got mixed up.. he knows Kal killed the Shardbearer who came after Amaram but i don't think he knows that the Shardbearer was Shallans brother. Maybe he's the one who lets it slip or IIRC Amaram said he was on his way to Urithiru so maybe the tale that he lied and didn't 'earn' his shards gets out and she puzzles it out.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Star Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 No, you're right. When did Dalinar lie to Shallan? I'm confused there. He knows that Kal killed the shardbearer. If Shallan gets distraught enough, she could be convinced that Dalinar lied to her as well, or at least concealed the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bort he/him Posted January 13, 2015 Report Share Posted January 13, 2015 He knows that Kal killed the shardbearer. If Shallan gets distraught enough, she could be convinced that Dalinar lied to her as well, or at least concealed the truth. This is true, however I'm pretty sure Dalinar doesn't know that the Shardbearer was Shallan's brother, so Shallan would have no reason to to blame Dalinar for anything. He doesn't even know there is a connection there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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