Random question about Aon Dor

[trendkill he/him]

Ok, so we all know that Elantrians are the only ones who can use Aon Dor.

Elantrians are created because of the formation of Aon Rao using the city of Elantris and the surrounding cities, etc, Aon Rao being one of the... We'll call it "spells"... of Aon Dor.

If the Elantrians are the only ones who can use Aon Dor, how could Aon Dor be used to create Elantrians??

It might be something as simple as the layout of the land already being in the correct pattern and the cities just making it more powerful, or it might be something bigger relating to the entire cosmere (my personal theory as I'm writing this post, also possible reason to move this to the general theories forum).

Like I said, just kind of a random question and I wanted to see what you all thought of it.

[Zas678 he/him]

Maybe before they were just really weak. Or maybe Aona showed them how to do it.

[Munin he/him]

The impression I got was that Elantris was basically a big amplifier for Aons. They work without it, but they're much, much weaker.

[DariusJenai]

The impression I got was that Elantris was basically a big amplifier for Aons. They work without it, but they're much, much weaker.

I think this is the right answer.  We see Raoden using Aons before Elantris is 'fixed', but they're exceptionally weaker than standard.

[trendkill he/him]

Except that the reason they weren't working fully (the way I took it) was that they weren't complete. They needed to have the Chasm line drawn in order to function.

[DariusJenai]

Without the Chasm line they weren't working at all.  They would just flash and fade.

Once the Chasm line was added, they worked, but had a very minor effect.  I think something to the effect that an Aon that Raoden said he shouldn't even be able to look at barely provided enough light to read by.

[Earendil]

Without the Chasm line they weren't working at all.  They would just flash and fade.

Once the Chasm line was added, they worked, but had a very minor effect.  I think something to the effect that an Aon that Raoden said he shouldn't even be able to look at barely provided enough light to read by.

That's true, but I see it as being because the city was almost the correct Aon.  There was still some power trickling through, just not enough to do anything.  In ten years, it built up enough power to unleash one aon, but it was working like filling up a water balloon with a really slow flow--it will get there, but once you break the bubble, there's not much pressure left.

For the main question of the thread, remember that Aon Dor is not the only magic system at play on Sel.  Both the Jindo and the Fjordel found ways to tap into a similar power source without using Aons.  It seems likely that someone built Elantris as an amplifier, and then got some unintended consequences--establishing the Elantrians and eliminating the more egalitarian magic.

[trendkill he/him]

For the main question of the thread, remember that Aon Dor is not the only magic system at play on Sel.  Both the Jindo and the Fjordel found ways to tap into a similar power source without using Aons.  It seems likely that someone built Elantris as an amplifier, and then got some unintended consequences--establishing the Elantrians and eliminating the more egalitarian magic.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I hadn't considered either the Jindo or Fjordel.

It's probably something of such little consequence that it'll probably not be delved into in the sequel, but it's something that was nagging my brain.

[Squallor he/him]

What do we know about the Jindoese magic? I'm trying to make a catalog of all Cosmere magic, and I'm starting with Elantris... I know the magic of Dakhor seems to be similar to Elantrian magic, and possibly uses the Dor (Raoden can feel it when Dilaf uses magic to take down his disguise at his coronation), though its obviously not the same. The only reference I see to the Jindoese is the ChayShan dance, but I don't remember it being particularly magical (finishing the book tonight, so we will see)

[mycoltbug]

What do we know about the Jindoese magic? I'm trying to make a catalog of all Cosmere magic, and I'm starting with Elantris... I know the magic of Dakhor seems to be similar to Elantrian magic, and possibly uses the Dor (Raoden can feel it when Dilaf uses magic to take down his disguise at his coronation), though its obviously not the same. The only reference I see to the Jindoese is the ChayShan dance, but I don't remember it being particularly magical (finishing the book tonight, so we will see)

During the ChayShan he started to glow. So it seems as if through some sort of Meditation/ritual he can tap the Dor.

[Zas678 he/him]

Raoden actually thinks this exact same thing. He says something like "There seems to be more than one way to channel the Dor."

[Puck he/him]

The impression I got was that Elantris was basically a big amplifier for Aons. They work without it, but they're much, much weaker.

I think this is the right answer.  We see Raoden using Aons before Elantris is 'fixed', but they're exceptionally weaker than standard.

That is the right answer:

Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon

[darniil he/him]

Now that I've finished Elantris, I can read this forum.

As regards the ChayShan, I think it's safe to assume that Brandon was inspired by some of Earth's martial arts. (I was specifically reminded of t'ai chi ch'uan.)

So, if Sel isn't like Scadrial, (that is, the following analogies are not true - Preservation:Aona :: Ruin:Skai :: Allomancy:AonDor :: Hemalurgy:DakhorMagic :: Feruchemy:ChayShan), then we can probably conclude that the Dor is very similar to what we on Earth call chi (or ki, whichever you prefer), and, as Raoden speculated, it can be accessed in different ways. Otherwise, the Dor would be unique to AonDor, the Dakhor stuff has its own unique energy, and so does ChayShan.

... Okay, I just found a quote in Part 3 that says the Dakhor magics are powered by the Dor, so that means that Dor isn't exclusive to Aona's stuff, and that Raoden's speculation is accurate. I guess we can completely ignore the preceding paragraph.

It makes me wonder, then - if the Dor is something akin to our chi, usable by the disciples of both Aona and Skai, is this energy something that developed post-Odium, a mixture of the residue of splintered Shards? Or was it there pre-Odium, an energy that developed because of the interactions between Shards in close proximity?

[Zas678 he/him]

WARNING: slight Mistborn Spoilers

My old personal theory (which I'm not sure is true anymore) was that the Dor and the Power of Preservation (which powers Allomancy) are the same thing. A (for our purposes) limitless, endless energy that magic users access that is the leftover of Adonalsium. It explains why Preservation didn't seem to be drained by people using Allomancy.

However, I think a better idea would be that when Aona and Skai died, their energies were left, mostly unguided, until they eventually merged. Then anyone who tried to access it would see the same thing- the Dor. This would mean that before Odium, the two powers were separate.

Where is all this unbound, wild, energy? Easy- Shadesmar. Brandon wrote in someone's book that "You wouldn't want to visit the Shadesmar in Sel." This could very well be because that's where the Dor is. Anyone who visits Sel meets this great wild energy- Sort of like a big forest fire.

[darniil he/him]

"You wouldn't want to visit the Shadesmar in Sel."

Well that's an interesting thing to say.

I know that the map of Shadesmar we have in WoK looks like an inverted Roshar, which means if we extend both maps to a global scale, the pattern would probably continue. However, when Brandon said that Shadesmar was the Cognitive Realm, that made me think of it more like the Astral(?) Plane in D&D, something that "overlaps" all the material planes. (But since Brandon's cosmere books all take place within the same physical dimension, the Cognitive Realm would "overlap" all of the different planets.)

If that is the case - the Cognitive Realm is one plane of existence that entirely overlaps the Physical Realm - then maybe the Cognitive Realm is incredibly malleable, its state of being in a given geographic area dependent upon what happens in the Physical Realm of the same geographic area.

But then again, Hoid's use of it to planet hop suggests that there isn't a 1:1 ratio between geography in Shadesmar and the layout of the physical universe. (That, or the equivalent of faster than light travel is easier in Shadesmar than in the Physical Realm.)

[Aeshdan he/him]

But then again, Hoid's use of it to planet hop suggests that there isn't a 1:1 ratio between geography in Shadesmar and the layout of the physical universe. (That, or the equivalent of faster than light travel is easier in Shadesmar than in the Physical Realm.)

Maybe you can jump to any place in Shadesmar by visioning it, like you can with Tel'aran'rhiod.

[Turos]

I like to think of the Reod Elantrians as under the influence of a messed up Aon. Like Dilaf's wife who was screwed up by a mistake in an Aon, the normal range of amplification effect from Elantris swapped for a mess-up-yo-face effect. I believe if you were to leave the range of effect before the chasm line was added to the city, you would be back to the normal but weaker form of Elantrian that existed before the city was built. They never had a chance to find out because they were locked in the city and the Shaod only seems to take those within a certain range to the pool near the city.

[fiveAM he/him]

As it has been confirmed that the Seons are Splinters, and those have been around for ages so AonDor with intact Shards could have been very different in terms of how powerful they were. It could be that AonDor only works in Elantris b/c Aona is Splintered and her Well (the lake?) is in Elantris which creates the diminishing effect as Elantrians get further away from Elantris.

[Wispsy he/him]

Dont know if it is confirmed they are splinters last I heard he said it was "something like that" but then I haven't been keeping so up to date lately! Aondor works away from elantris just not very well and I would be likely to believe it when it says that it is because elantris is a big spirit aon boosting their (spiritual?). The dor may not have been any more powerful in the past as it is in the book, it's lasted thousands of years and there is never any record of it decreasing whilst being used so much, so either it doesn't run out, keeps replenishing itself, or is so big that no matter how much humans use it it doesn't change a thing. Also consider that other people can use the dor without aons and without being in elantris, this suggests the lake does not make any difference.

[Ironeyes]

WARNING: slight Mistborn Spoilers

My old personal theory (which I'm not sure is true anymore) was that the Dor and the Power of Preservation (which powers Allomancy) are the same thing. A (for our purposes) limitless, endless energy that magic users access that is the leftover of Adonalsium. It explains why Preservation didn't seem to be drained by people using Allomancy.

WARNING 2: More Mistborn spoilers

Brandon says in the HoA annotations that the energy from burning atium goes back to the Pits of Hathsin, because the energy is not used up, just utilized. Allomancy should work the same way, so Preservation's energy is not used up. It just returns to its source. The Dor is probably the same.

[Senor Feesh]

Is it possible that the Dor, and the powers of Allomancy, Surgebinding, and Breath are all in fact simply aspects of the same 'power of creation' that Adonalsium held? Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'll try and remember where I saw it) but I think I remember reading that Ruin could also be used to power Allomancy (which is somewhat evident anyway due to Atium being able to be burned).

I think that maybe all these magics use the same power, but access it in different ways (and therefore have different effects) based on the Intent of the Shard through which they gain access to the power.

Thoughts?

[Zas678 he/him]

I agree. I've thought that way for a while now, especially since the Power of Creation that Brandon mentions powering Allomancy sounds pretty similar to the Dor in Elantris.

Chaos (among others) believe that the Power of Creation is more of a type of power, saying that the power comes from the Shard itself, but it seems to me that a bajillion allomancers using their power would make Preservation incredibly incredibly weak.

[Turos]

That's assuming that the 'power' is more like a battery or well of energy. It could be interpreted as a format. If this is the case, whenever someone taps into their spiritual web and accesses their world's spiritual realm, or 'Dor', they are merely transforming it from one form into another and it passes through the format dictated by the Shard's tie to that world, creating an output of the specific magic.

I used to think of electricity like water going though a pipe. You only have so much water. I was incorrect in thinking this way. Electricity is actually more like a line of people doing 'the wave' in the bleachers at a basketball game. xD

The first person starts it and the next person feels like an idiot for not continuing it, so they all follow suit. Electricity is more like this. The atoms at the beginning of a long wire are excited by something to become active. The energy of the excitement is passed along. No actual substance is moved, just the reaction.

This could be what powers in the cosmere are like. Yes, metals are burned up in the use of allomancy, but they still exist, just as broken down substances that used to make up the metals. A change in form.

Yes, an electrical battery can be depleted, though not in the sense of having lost any substance. It's just arranged in a way that has no excitement to it. But we shouldn't think of Shards as batteries. Think of them as blueprints, at least to understand this theory. Or even better, think of them as cookie cutters! The cookie cutter changes the shape of dough into a gingerbread man :q No damage done to the cookie cutter, but it's still required to make the dough into the right shape.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Turos