Feruchemical Zinc and Allomantic Atium

[Aminar]

The bolded, yes, specific to a seer but for the second I think you undervalue the precognition.

Unless it completely drops off the face of Scadrial, I'd think it would show up in the later trilogies and need to still be useful

I'm aware Mistborn can do more. This is purely a discussion of Atium though. As I've said, Steel and Iron can largely nullify guns anyway.

Another Atium question. Atium and Aluminum... What if Atium cannot predict the motions of an Aluminum object, or is blocked by Aluminum hats like Brass and Zinc.

[Observer]

What it comes down to is the reasoning behind aluminum's random immunity to allomancy. Is it more invested than other metals? Is it from another planet and exempt from the rules? I honestly have no idea.

[Aminar]

Aluminum isn't from another planet butbit might deal with the electricity involved in refining it. I don't know. I doubt its investiture.

[Voidus]

I doubt it's to do with electricity or investiture, I think it's just part of it's allomantic nature. From a story point of view it's a fairly redundant ability now, since there are no more mistborn Aluminum is completely useless (Duralumin can still be granted hemalurgically so not useless ).

[Observer]

I'm simply saying. Allomancy follows rules. You can push and pull on anything metal. And then there's aluminum. I'd guess we'll learn about why in series 2.

[Satsuoni he/him]

I am guessing it just absorbs allomantic Investiture, and that is essentially how it works, allomantically, by pullling Investiture through metals backwards, burning them into preservation rather than the Allomancer, while duralumin pushes Investiture at advanced rate into Allomancer.

Also, Atium is not limited to metal, so I doubt aluminium affects it any way

[Aminar]

I am guessing it just absorbs allomantic Investiture, and that is essentially how it works, allomantically, by pullling Investiture through metals backwards, burning them into preservation rather than the Allomancer, while duralumin pushes Investiture at advanced rate into Allomancer.

Also, Atium is not limited to metal, so I doubt aluminium affects it any way

Brass and Zinc have nothing to do with Metal either, but Aluminum blocks them(Aluminum hats are mentioned as defending against soothing/rioting.

The logic is obviously that burning Aluminum cuts away metals so it should be inert. It seems likely all the enhancement metals are inert given Chromium's function and the fact Nicro and Duraluminum are alloys of inert metals.

[Satsuoni he/him]

I am relatively sure duralumin isn't inert, and it was mentioned in a book that only some alloys of aluminum are inert. You do have a point about bronze, but Atium seems to work on you, rather than affect surroundings, so I am not sure about that. The working mechanism may be different, too, I.e. the power source of burned Atium maybe Atium itself as opposed to preservation.

I don't know about chromium. Maybe, but then, it does not (probably) affect itself, as aluminum does- aluminum is unique is that regard, since it also erases itself.

[Aminar]

I am relatively sure duralumin isn't inert, and it was mentioned in a book that only some alloys of aluminum are inert. You do have a point about bronze, but Atium seems to work on you, rather than affect surroundings, so I am not sure about that. The working mechanism may be different, too, I.e. the power source of burned Atium maybe Atium itself as opposed to preservation.

I don't know about chromium. Maybe, but then, it does not (probably) affect itself, as aluminum does- aluminum is unique is that regard, since it also erases itself.

There's no evidence either way, beyond the fact Alloy mentions that some of Aluminum's alloys are inert. No idea if Duraluminum is, but I can see why it would be.

When you said Bronze do you mean Brass/Zinc?

[name_here]

I think Vin would have noticed Duraluminum being inert, since she kept vials containing it around. While she might have simply missed that because of the other metals in the vials, over the course of a year or two she'd probably have realized there weren't as many metal lines as there should be, especially once she started giving Elend a crash course in Allomancy. That, plus its allomantic effect is elemental aluminum's outright opposite

Of course, the nobility apparently didn't realize aluminum was Allomantically inert, but bear in mind that aluminum was outrageously expensive with their technology level. The only possible reason for Mistborn to carry it around while doing things would be if they realized it was inert, they'd only encounter it with their steel/iron on during fights inside keeps while understandably a bit too preoccupied to notice a handful of missing metal lines from the fine diningware cabinet and even if one of them did notice it's quite possible they never did anything with it because it was way too expensive to expend making a knife worse than the nonmetallic ones they've already got. And an aluminum hat would probably take more aluminum than many noble houses even had. Even come Alloy Of Law it's apparently expensive enough that a wealthy noble family is willing to risk smuggling it under a false manifest listing in order to dodge taxes and Ranette's special bullets-what-kill-allomancers exist because she outright could not afford aluminum.

As for whether it works on Atium, that is a very good question. Atium appears to be an external temporal metal, but it also breaks the standard rules and aluminum does not seem to effect the normal external temporals. Wayne encases aluminum-armed attackers in speed bubbles and they apparently deflect incoming fire from the Vanishers after they switch to aluminum, while Marasi got a slowing bubble around Miles, who might have still had his aluminum gun with him. So it might just be inert to the "lower"-mental and physical- metals. An obvious test would be to have a Leecher try to drain an Aluminum Gnat.

[Observer]

If Aluminum absorbs investure, could the be drawn out somehow and used?

Could a shard influence aluminum, or is it some oddity that even Shardic power can't work on? Personally, I think God Metals are exceptions to the aluminum rules, considering the rediculousness of Shardic power not working on aluminum.

[Aminar]

I think Vin would have noticed Duraluminum being inert, since she kept vials containing it around. While she might have simply missed that because of the other metals in the vials, over the course of a year or two she'd probably have realized there weren't as many metal lines as there should be, especially once she started giving Elend a crash course in Allomancy. That, plus its allomantic effect is elemental aluminum's outright opposite

Of course, the nobility apparently didn't realize aluminum was Allomantically inert, but bear in mind that aluminum was outrageously expensive with their technology level. The only possible reason for Mistborn to carry it around while doing things would be if they realized it was inert, they'd only encounter it with their steel/iron on during fights inside keeps while understandably a bit too preoccupied to notice a handful of missing metal lines from the fine diningware cabinet and even if one of them did notice it's quite possible they never did anything with it because it was way too expensive to expend making a knife worse than the nonmetallic ones they've already got. And an aluminum hat would probably take more aluminum than many noble houses even had. Even come Alloy Of Law it's apparently expensive enough that a wealthy noble family is willing to risk smuggling it under a false manifest listing in order to dodge taxes and Ranette's special bullets-what-kill-allomancers exist because she outright could not afford aluminum.

As for whether it works on Atium, that is a very good question. Atium appears to be an external temporal metal, but it also breaks the standard rules and aluminum does not seem to effect the normal external temporals. Wayne encases aluminum-armed attackers in speed bubbles and they apparently deflect incoming fire from the Vanishers after they switch to aluminum, while Marasi got a slowing bubble around Miles, who might have still had his aluminum gun with him. So it might just be inert to the "lower"-mental and physical- metals. An obvious test would be to have a Leecher try to drain an Aluminum Gnat.

As you've handily pointed out, there's plenty of ways she wouldn't have noticed. I mean, there are like a million lines packed tightly together coming from a mistborn vial and she never had vials of just duraluminum that I know of. It would be an easy thing to miss.

If Aluminum absorbs investure, could the be drawn out somehow and used?

Could a shard influence aluminum, or is it some oddity that even Shardic power can't work on? Personally, I think God Metals are exceptions to the aluminum rules, considering the rediculousness of Shardic power not working on aluminum.

I would assume a shard can, but I don't see why Atium should be an exception to the other allomantic powers just because it's a god metal. It does everything else the same.

[Observer]

Doesn't change the fact that it's pure Ruin in metal form, and uses Ruin's powers of future sight. It would make sense fo rit to be an exception to the rules.

[Aminar]

I don't think it uses Ruin's future sight. Ruin is not the Cthaeh(Wise mans Fear). He is not a 5th dimensional entity, where he can see all possible time streams. It uses Ruins power to grant limited future sight. Steel uses Preservation's power to push metal objects but it can't push Aluminum. What makes it different?

The only logic I can see is that Lerasium allows a mistrorn to burn Aluminum, but Lerasium doesn't affect Aluminum it affects spiritual DNA.

[Observer]

I don't think it uses Ruin's future sight. Ruin is not the Cthaeh(Wise mans Fear).

+1 for Kvothe's sake.

Actually, doesn't Atium sound exactly like the kind of future sight Ruin would use? Destroy things, right here, right now. Nothing long term about it, just simple kill kill kill.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Observer

[Aminar]

+1 for Kvothe's sake.

Actually, doesn't Atium sound exactly like the kind of future sight Ruin would use? Destroy things, right here, right now. Nothing long term about it, just simple kill kill kill.

I don't know...

I mean think about Feruchemical Atium. Or Lerasium. Neither of those seem like innate abilities of the shard persay. They are things the shard could do. Well actually Feruchemical Atium seems totally Ant-Ruin once compounding is thrown in. And Atium spikes preserve the power they store better... In essence, I don't think what Atium does is anything other than the byproduct of consuming Ruin's body allomantically. It's tied to the spiritual DNA of the metal Atium. Sure Atium's futuresight seems very ruiny. But so do Iron and Steel. If Allomancy embodied preservation perfectly it would be all about healing and defending but that isn't the point. It's just an end positive system.

[Voidus]

I think that unless you had a whole suit made of Aluminum it wouldn't block Atium, just holding it isn't going to do anything. We've also never seen Aluminium affect one of the internal metals and I don't think we will, otherwise all of allomancy is going to be rendered pretty useless in the next trilogy (Unless maybe nicrosil fuelled allomancy can affect Aluminium?)

[Aminar]

I think that unless you had a whole suit made of Aluminum it wouldn't block Atium, just holding it isn't going to do anything. We've also never seen Aluminium affect one of the internal metals and I don't think we will, otherwise all of allomancy is going to be rendered pretty useless in the next trilogy (Unless maybe nicrosil fuelled allomancy can affect Aluminium?)

The way I see it Aluminum projectiles ignore Atium reactions. An arm covered in Aluminum foil cannot be seen by Atium. Etc.

[Satsuoni he/him]

@Observer: I think it just absorbs Investiture back into preservation instead of storing it into itself, like Nicrosil.

@name_here: Did nobility even know of aluminum's existence? From the books, I've gotten the impression that TLR suppresses the knowledge of it.

Also, is Atium even external? It was classified that way, but it is no longer in the main grid, so maybe it was wrong, and it is internal, like bronze? I mean, it does not affect anybody else, just your perception. Also, it is temporal, and, as mentioned before, Aluminium does not affect temporal metals, otherwise it would act very strangely in the bendalloy bubble - you won't be able to carry it inside, since it would drag with the outside time. Its effect on emotional allomancy is a shield that absorbs Investiture reaching into your head, I guess...

Huh.

Does anybody know if a shield of aluminum plating protects a metal behind it from being pulled/pushed? Wouldn't plating a gun be cheaper then?

[Observer]

Does anybody know if a shield of aluminum plating protects a metal behind it from being pulled/pushed? Wouldn't plating a gun be cheaper then?

I'm fairly sure it all has to be made of it, which calls up questions about why a tin foil hat works. Maybe the body is already invested enough that it only needs a tiny bit of plating to work?

[Voidus]

Plating on a gun wouldn't last very long, 1 use and it's vulnerable to allomancy again.

[Observer]

Plating on a gun wouldn't last very long, 1 use and it's vulnerable to allomancy again.

I'm sure a thickish plating would work fine, if you did it right. I'm too lazy to work out and/or look up the physics of it. Maybe use aluminum paint or something.

[Voidus]

It would need to be quite thick, I don't think it's doable, the only thing I can think of is to electro-plate it but that might not go on evenly enough in the barrel, it would be hugely difficult and wasteful, just making it solid would be easier.

[Observer]

Point. Gun, point. So, we're assuming plating works. So, what's the area of effect for aluminum? How far does the cushion of protection extend?

[Satsuoni he/him]

At least they could use coated bullets, then. The protection does not need to last on the bullets, I'd say, unless they recover and reuse them. Still cheaper than the whole bullet. But yeah, the exact effect of aluminum is uncertain.