His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman

[Iredomi]

I just wanted to start this topic because I believe these books are brilliant, and should be discussed. And yeah, just wanted to know how many other people on here feel the same or even better, the opposite.

[Thought]

I love the first book. The general setting is creative: just familiar enough to indicate it is a parallel dimension (or alternate history), while being different enough to make us question our own assumptions. The daemon, dust, compass, etc are all fun trinkets, for those of us who like trinkets, and keep us entertained. The villains are a little mustache-twirly, but for a one-book romp, it is fine. Lee Scoresby (and his Daemon) is a wonderfully likeable and charismatic character.

Alas, the series went downhill from there. I'd go into details, but that would just turn into a long rant. However, to try to be brief, I think most my complaints can boil down to poor characterization: largely, individuals did what was necessary for the plot, not what one would reasonably expect a real person to do. The plot of the first book carried us most of the way, and the characters didn't do much that was too crazypants. The second book's plot worked well enough, but the characters detracted from it. Then the third book's plot was just falling apart. At that point, interesting characters could have helped, but even the one's we had (which had become even more ridiculous) were beaten down by nonsensical plot points.

There was also some very unsavory moments of bigotry, anti-feminism, anti-humanism, and sexism, which were particularly irksome given Pullmann's own criticism of C.S. Lewis. Though, to be fair, I think most of these were inadvertent, the result the characterization problems I mentioned above, rather than actual malice. And in further defense, given the awards he's received, it seems that others don't find his characters as silly as I do.

[Iredomi]

I feel Northern Lights or the Golden Compass could be read just by itself as it is the best one. Yes, you would get huge plot threads left hanging but I'm a fan of very open 'endings' to stories. That being said, I do feel that characters being maybe not completely realistic were still engaging enough for me. And I was fine with that because the whole story has the feel of a out of place fairy tale.

I do really love the way he blends prose with poetic language. But I feel that maybe his ideas got a bit too big for the story and took control of the books in an unruly fashion. That's why I think the first book excels as it has all the ideas but they all compliment the world. As soon as Pullman brings us back to reality with Will's story I think some of the magic is lost.

[Joe ST]

I actually read the Subtle Knife first, and that worked just as well, somehow XD

[Yados]

I quite enjoyed these books, but I can't remember enough about them to say more than that.

I do know I was shocked to find out that many readers have found them to be poor or objectionable. Especially since I remember feeling refreshed by the series as I read it and, at the time, wished that I was in contact with a young adult to whom I could pass them along.

One of my cousins is eleven now. Maybe I'll send them her way.

[Thought]

I do know I was shocked to find out that many readers have found them to be poor...

For me, it was a series of crashes that tainted the rest of the book, rather than things being consistently bad. These were the sort of problems that I'm amazed got past Pullmann's alpha-readers, let alone his agent, let along his publisher. For example, when Lyra decided that she could trust Will because he was a murderer, that was so utterly ridiculous that I ceased to care about her. I liked the plot (and I hate not finishing a book), so I kept reading, but it is a significant blow, when the main character is no longer identifiable.

Presumably, that moment didn't ruin the book for others as much as it did for me. I'm not really sure why, but there you go.

[Iredomi]

Yeah that is something that would probably stick out at me reading them again. But I don't know... Lyra is crazy like that lol.

[Tamzin Ashevai]

I read the 3 novels in His Dark Materials one after the other ... as I'm typically won't to do in any series. Anyway, I loved all three (even though they're not among my favorites). Still, I do like them a great deal for their outrageous take on religion and the convictions of those devoted to various Christian denominations. Before reading them, I thought that within the novels, something quite different than that which I expected would be revealed. Having read them, I remain disappointed because not enough that was set forth was achieved ... legally, at the very least.

[Lady_Yasha]

I read the 3 novels in His Dark Materials one after the other ... as I'm typically won't to do in any series. Anyway, I loved all three (even though they're not among my favorites). Still, I do like them a great deal for their outrageous take on religion and the convictions of those devoted to various Christian denominations. Before reading them, I thought that within the novels, something quite different than that which I expected would be revealed. Having read them, I remain disappointed because not enough that was set forth was achieved ... legally, at the very least.

I believe Pullman was trying to highlight religion's own absurdity, rather than attacking religion directly. He identifies as an agnostic atheist, so he's open to the idea of a deity aslong as it can be proven.

He uses the Church in Lyra's world as a manifestation of the constraints and dangers of dogmatism and the use of religion to oppress, without actually attacking Christianity itself. You could call it outrageous, but I like to refer to it as creatively informed

Even Christians applaud his work and I do very much like his take on religion as a whole. Despite the character flaws in later books I enjoyed the concept and view of the universe Pullman gave us.

[rpggal]

I like the part of the book where Lyra makes use of the golden compass.

As a christian, I find myself disapproving the books general attack on religion.

[Tamzin Ashevai]

I believe Pullman was trying to highlight religion's own absurdity, rather than attacking religion directly. He identifies as an agnostic atheist, so he's open to the idea of a deity aslong as it can be proven.

He uses the Church in Lyra's world as a manifestation of the constraints and dangers of dogmatism and the use of religion to oppress, without actually attacking Christianity itself. You could call it outrageous, but I like to refer to it as creatively informed

Even Christians applaud his work and I do very much like his take on religion as a whole. Despite the character flaws in later books I enjoyed the concept and view of the universe Pullman gave us.

You might be right in your assessment, Lyrebon, and I'm wide open to it. Even so, religion, in my mind, is an absurdity and I'm an atheist.

[Lady_Yasha]

I like the part of the book where Lyra makes use of the golden compass.

As a christian, I find myself disapproving the books general attack on religion.

Like I said in my previous post, I don't think Pullman was making a general attack on religion. No system of belief and ethics is perfect - what works for one might not work for another. I don't believe in chastity, or holding faith in a deity that grants free will but demands obedience.

Pullman was highlighting those flaws and how human nature can manipulate an idea/belief to control, which religion can and is used for in some cases. The Church in HDM removes all social obligation for moral ethics, operating instead on avarice and self-preservation. Simply put, HDM's Church is a world where extremist religion has been allowed to hold the most influence.

Many fantasy authors use religion as the antagonist to varying degrees of success. Those that are within the constraints of belief, such as the Children of the Light, and well written so you understand why their doctrines are so extreme actually enrich the culture of the world, rather than polluting it.

The Lord Ruler and the Steel Ministry is a perfect example of using religion as control. Written by a man who is Mormon it would be pretty silly and ironic of him to attack religion in general. Even though the Steel Ministry is portrayed as corrupt and oppressive, someone's writing shouldn't encompass their entire belief system. There are going to be elements in your own story that you hate but you're going to have to write because that's how the world works.

[Thought]

Like I said in my previous post, I don't think Pullman was making a general attack on religion.

The problem there is that he didn't really try to be fair. Generally speaking, if someone was good in the book, they were irreligious, and if they were bad, they were religious. Even if he didn't mean to, that gives the impression that he is attacking religion in general.

Since you mentioned the Steel ministry, Sanderson went out of his way (through the characters of Yomen and Sazed) to emphasize that it wasn't all bad. That small difference is was helps prevent Sanderson's work from seeming like a general attack on religion. This nod towards realism was missing in HDM.

Indeed, this problem was emphasized by the "good" characters behaving so ridiculously. I already mentioned the problem with Lyra, but there are several just as nutters. Mary Malone, for example, essentially claimed that she stopped believing in god because she likes the taste of marzipan. When the "rationalists" are so nutters, then the "irrationalists" will seem all the more so. And don't get me on the topic of how scary Dust acts!

[Lady_Yasha]

The problem there is that he didn't really try to be fair. Generally speaking, if someone was good in the book, they were irreligious, and if they were bad, they were religious. Even if he didn't mean to, that gives the impression that he is attacking religion in general.

Since you mentioned the Steel ministry, Sanderson went out of his way (through the characters of Yomen and Sazed) to emphasize that it wasn't all bad. That small difference is was helps prevent Sanderson's work from seeming like a general attack on religion. This nod towards realism was missing in HDM.

Indeed, this problem was emphasized by the "good" characters behaving so ridiculously. I already mentioned the problem with Lyra, but there are several just as nutters. Mary Malone, for example, essentially claimed that she stopped believing in god because she likes the taste of marzipan. When the "rationalists" are so nutters, then the "irrationalists" will seem all the more so. And don't get me on the topic of how scary Dust acts!

True but Mary Malone's hypothesis about "Shadow Particles" (Dust) has her funding revoked. Even the science institutes of our world couldn't accept the evidence she had for Dust. To me that said, can science ever really prove God? In that general sense HDM is also a criticism of science, albeit less so than religion.

I'm not sure if I mentioned before my gripe with character development in the last two books but I didn't feel their progression was natural either. They seemed to be carried by the plot, rather than Pullman allowing the characters to mould the plot for him. They seemed... forced.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Lyrebon

[Iredomi]

He's writing a sequel apparently which he started writing aeons ago. Any ideas on what he could/would possibly add to his story in the sequel? Or anything you would want to see?

[Vortaan]

He's writing a sequel apparently which he started writing aeons ago. Any ideas on what he could/would possibly add to his story in the sequel? Or anything you would want to see?

From what I remember, it wasn't the kind of series where I was looking for more. It was written, I read it through, it was alright young adult fantasy, and I moved on. The characterization of a lot of the latter books was... odd. I'd be curious to see if he could head back towards the relatively interesting universe of the first book.

[Iredomi]

I looked into it a bit more and apparently there are going to be two more books, a prequel and a sequel which will both delve deeper into 'dust' I think.

I for one would like a more focused story residing exclusively in Lyra's world without all the inter-dimensional travel which I feel did not help the latter two books. The world of Northern Lights was enthralling and I feel it could be explored further.

[Satsuoni]

Read first 1.5 books, and then they... lost me, I guess, which is rare (only happened one or two other times that I can remember). Didn't really like them, not sure why. Maybe the cliches, or dust acting more and more bizarrely, or the fact that the daemons stop transforming. The first book was ok... barely.