Let's kill a princess

[Vortaan]

Isn't there a contradiction/contraindication to this in one of the Kaladin flashbacks?

Right before Kaladin is betrayed by Amaram is the incident you're talking about, but... I always kind of doubt people talking about things like that in front of the conveniently disposed of tools are speaking the truth.

[name_here]

The fragment of conversation indicates he's part of a mystery conspiracy possibly assembled by Stormwardens that opposes the Ghostbloods. The bit Kaladin heard wasn't particularly informative to him and the conversation cut off, so I suspect he was being as truthful as he normally was talking to that Stormwarden.

[Inkthinker]

Even if the Ghostbloods don't know about Shallan's ability, don't we have a running theory that her father and possibly her brother were secretly members? He might have been feeling her out to see how much she already knew and whether she'd be able to pick up where they left off.

[hoser]

Or it might not be about Jasnah. Consider what we know about the Ghostbloods.

1. Helped her father advance among the Veden nobility.
   
2. Tried to have Amaram assassinated.
   
3. Tried to assassinate Jasnah.
   

They could be trying to destabilize existing leadership to put in their own, more or less like Taravangian. They don't influence Elhokar or Jasnah as much as they would like, so they'll do whatever they can to disrupt his regime. Killing his sister could only increase his paranoia and disrupt the succession. Sadeas and Dalinar are the king's main supporters, and killing Amaram threatens the stability of his region, so Sadeas might be forced to return to Alethkar. Without Sadeas, the group on the plains is less likely to hold together.

[dj26792]

Thats very true, I've seen it suggested that maybe Taravangian is the leader of the ghostbloods, whether openly (sort of, as open as you can be in a secret organisation) or secretly, and I think this point is one of the major arguments for that sort of suggestion. A lot of what the ghostbloods do seems to be designed to cause the same sort of chaos and destruction as Taravangian uses Szeth to achieve, but on a much slower more subtle way, what if Taravangian uses Szeth as a weapon of opportunity to speed up the process he was already working on achieving through the ghostbloods.

[hoser]

Thats very true, I've seen it suggested that maybe Taravangian is the leader of the ghostbloods, ...

dj,

It seems possible, but not my favorite possibility, for three reasons:

1. Taravangian seems to be studying Jasnah to determine if she's a threat to his plans (the rock in the palace when his own people have at least one soulcaster or they can soulcast like Jasnah, conversing with her on a bad day and not killing her with Szeth) rather than just trying to kill her.
   
2. Taravangian seems to be frighteningly efficient, whereas the Ghostbloods seem to be made of pure fail.
   
3. Kabsal kind of lost it once when talking to Shallan about Vorinism. I think it was Brandon's way of indicating that he was motivated by religious fervor. Taravangian's crew seem to be more secular.
   

Faint clues and, as you suggest, Taravangian could be using the Ghostbloods or even the Parshendi behind the scenes. I wish Brandon had given us more about the different parties from Gavilar's point of view, but I guess he wants to leave 9 books worth of mysteries a dying man can only say so much.

Edited August 23, 2012 by hoser

[Morsk]

But as a serious question, how much technojumbo was going on with the poisons? I've never really studied them, but it seems like modern chemistry would show that such things lingering in the liver and cells. Seems like eventually you aren't going to put enough jam on, or have enough junk in your system to keel over anyway.

I don't know of any real examples with poisons, but it's definitely possible to make drugs that block other drugs from working. It's a concern with many prescription medications, that they won't work correctly if you're on other drugs. Not everything stays in the body forever. You just need a poison with a shorter half-life than the antidote, and it would be safe.

I think the technojumbo comes in with how quickly Kasbal died. A poison that fast-acting wouldn't be safe to use with the jam antidote. Jasnah did say he was desperate and used extra, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

[name_here]

Could be the antidote actually reacted with the poison to neutralize it instead of just counteracting the effects.

I doubt Taravagian is with the Ghostbloods, mainly because Jasnah survived, but also because Kasbal didn't have a solid cover story. He seemed to have been hastily shoved in by a group with no agents among the local Ardentia.

I would caution against assuming that because people are part of a shadowy conspiracy, they're part of the same one. There seems to be rather a lot of them on Roshar, working at cross purposes.

[Voidus]

I think the technojumbo comes in with how quickly Kasbal died. A poison that fast-acting wouldn't be safe to use with the jam antidote. Jasnah did say he was desperate and used extra, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

Yeah I noticed this too, especially since poisons effect people differently according to a huge number of variables, if it could act that quickly then it was incredibly risky giving some to Shallan since it could have effected her even quicker than that.

[happyman]

I would caution against assuming that because people are part of a shadowy conspiracy, they're part of the same one. There seems to be rather a lot of them on Roshar, working at cross purposes.

Amen. I would much rather have the Ghostbloods be separate from Taragavinian.

Too many secret societies becomes just silly. We haven't reached the level of silliness just yet, though, or anything like it.

[Aeshdan]

I don't know of any real examples with poisons, but it's definitely possible to make drugs that block other drugs from working. It's a concern with many prescription medications, that they won't work correctly if you're on other drugs. Not everything stays in the body forever. You just need a poison with a shorter half-life than the antidote, and it would be safe.

I think the technojumbo comes in with how quickly Kasbal died. A poison that fast-acting wouldn't be safe to use with the jam antidote. Jasnah did say he was desperate and used extra, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

It's one of the most basic laws of chemistry that doubling the concentration of reactant doubles the speed of a reaction. We know that Kabsal used enough that Jasnah might have inhaled a lethal dose, so that would be probably ten times the strength, say? Also note that there was enough time for Kabsal to give Shallan the antidote, it just smelled horrid.

[Vortaan]

It's one of the most basic laws of chemistry that doubling the concentration of reactant doubles the speed of a reaction. We know that Kabsal used enough that Jasnah might have inhaled a lethal dose, so that would be probably ten times the strength, say? Also note that there was enough time for Kabsal to give Shallan the antidote, it just smelled horrid.

That's actually interesting. So the original doses he gave would likely have killed Jasnah over a longer period, perhaps a few days? The whole jam-antidote thing works a lot better in that case.