Measuring Stormlight

[Pathfinder]

During a debate in another thread regarding a fight between Vin and Szeth, it became pretty clear of one rather large difficulty, measuring stormlight usage. From what I recall, we rarely see much information at all. At least with metals there is some reference to burn rate, what each metal can accomplish, the effect dularium has, and what compounding could accomplish to a degree. With stormlight, the user could either have it burning continually for passive speed, strength and healing bonus, use it actively for multiple standard uses, or "flare" it to get one or a few BIG uses all from one resource that is continually "decaying". So in an effort to gain some insight into this for stormlight, I decided to pull up every instance Szeth uses stormlight, notate how his illumination is described, and what tasks he specifically accomplished between inhalations. Then I intend to do the same for Kaladin, and compare them to see if there is a significant difference in burn rate. I will begin working on this here and there during the week, and time permitting more focused on weekends. I am posting this now as partly a place holder but also to see if anyone has any suggestions or contributions regarding my methodology to aid in attaining my goal of getting a closer handle on stormlight usage? 

[Patrick Star]

I vouch for lumens per cubic meter as a measure of stormlight quantities.  Simple, yet powerful and flexible.

[Pathfinder]

I vouch for lumens per cubic meter as a measure of stormlight quantities.  Simple, yet powerful and flexible.

Sounds perfect! Then I can compare the appearance of various gradations of lumens in the real world, with the descriptions of Szeth and Kaladin as they shed light and prescribe numeric values. Then with the numeric values linked with the tasks accomplished, I could potentially assign values to each task. So if for instance he radiated 10 lumens, healed, flew, and lashed a foe in one scene, and then radiated 6 lumens, lashed a foe and flew, then flying could potentially take 3 lumens, lashing potentially 3 lumen, and through process of elimination the healing in the first scene took 4 lumen. Since this is all pretty loose, it will take a lot of scenes to hopefully narrow things down at all, but I think a rudimentary sense could be gathered   

[Patrick Star]

Hm... Lumens PER cubic meter would actually measure stormlight intensity, not the actual amount.

I revise my hastily-thought idea to Lumen-litres (Lumens times volume in Liters). If stormlight is throwing off 1 lumen in a 2 liter area, it would stand to reason that it would throw off twice as many lumens in a 1-liter area.

This is very similar to the ideal gas law, which is probably the best real-world analogue to stormlight (massless matter).

Of course, I'm a little loopy from lack of sleep, so I may have just made something up.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Patrick Star

[TheOneKEA]

I once asked the question "How many lumens does it take to reach the center of Shadesmar?", so I think it is reasonable to use that unit of measurement.

Does Brandon actually have any passages in which the size and shape of the gems and spheres is directly linked to the light emitted?

[Pathfinder]

Hm... Lumens PER cubic meter would actually measure stormlight intensity, not the actual amount.

I revise my hastily-thought idea to Lumen-litres (Lumens times volume in Liters). If stormlight is throwing off 1 lumen in a 2 liter area, it would stand to reason that it would throw off twice as many lumens in a 1-liter area.

This is very similar to the ideal gas law, which is probably the best real-world analogue to stormlight (massless matter).

Of course, I'm a little loopy from lack of sleep, so I may have just made something up.

I short handed it for the purpose of the post I wrote before i left lol. I will make sure when I write the final post, to notate lumens/cubic meter. Since we do not typically see how many gems, what type of gems, the type of cut of the gem, and how bright the gems are before inhalation, I was using how bright Szeth or Kaladin would be as an indicator of how much stormlight they inhaled. So a smoke luminescence like the first time we use Szeth use stormlight, vs fully glowing at the end of Words of Radiance. So the terminology would not be perfect, but the whole experiment is imperfect since there aren't any definable indicators. I am just trying to work something together that would give us a better idea than what we have now. 

 

I once asked the question "How many lumens does it take to reach the center of Shadesmar?", so I think it is reasonable to use that unit of measurement.

Does Brandon actually have any passages in which the size and shape of the gems and spheres is directly linked to the light emitted?

At this point in time, no, but it has been a bit since I last read Way of Kings and Words of Radiance, so I could be forgetting something. I hope in the span of my search I will locate any if they do exist. I do know there is WoB that the cut of the gem and its size does matter but the gems are rarely described when used for their stormlight.

[Dahak he/him]

I once asked the question "How many lumens does it take to reach the center of Shadesmar?", so I think it is reasonable to use that unit of measurement.

Does Brandon actually have any passages in which the size and shape of the gems and spheres is directly linked to the light emitted?

 

Way of Kings:City of Bells

The three chips, for instance, each had only a tiny splinter of diamond inside. Even that was enough to glow with Stormlight, far fainter than a lamp, but still visible. A mark—the medium denomination of sphere—was a little less bright than a candle, and it took five chips to make a mark.

 

 

Later in the same chapter

 

 

A broam—the highest denomination of sphere—glowed with about the same light as several candles.

 

[soulcastJam he/him]

This is a weird measure because in our world, a lumen isn't something you can consume or use up.  It's a measure of the light generated from a source that is used up.  I propose the use of stormJoules as a measure of the energy contained within a sphere.

 

 Actually, this brings up something odd about stormlight.  It shines brighter when there is more infused, but it doesn't appear that the stormlight gets used up faster or slower based on the amount.  In other words, the rate at which stormlight leaks from a gemstone is constant over time until it reaches zero (not proportional to the amount in the stone) but the light emitted decays linearly (proportional to the amount in the stone).  This can especially be seen by the difference between large and small gemstones.  I am assuming that the rate (stormJoules/sec) at which light decays from a gemstone is proportional to the amount it can contain.  If a gemstone can be infused with a maximum of "x" stormJoules, then it will lose that stormlight in x / rate (seconds).  However, x is proportional to rate, so the decay time will always be the same for all gemstones.  

 

So my conclusion is that stormlight emits light when infused in a gemstone, but this is essentially free light because it doesn't actually change the amount of light within the stone.  If it did then really bright gemstones would quickly become dull with an exponentially decaying light emission.  That means that a bunch of weak gemstones would be more effective for lighting than a couple of large ones.

[Patrick Star]

This is why I'm treating stormlight as an ideal gas. In the real world, the rate of diffusion is not influenced by how much gas is diffusing. It only matters what type of gas is doing so. This is why stormlight leaks from spheres as a constant rate.

An ideal gas is made of volumeless particles that don't interact with eachother, so it's a good analogue for stormlight. I'm using lumens as the unit because that's the only way to tell how much stormlight there is.

Edited December 17, 2014 by Patrick Star

[Pathfinder]

Way of Kings:City of Bells

 

Later in the same chapter

 

Thanks for the info! Do you recall any quotes that go to the extent of "he inhaled stormlight from a pure cut emerald broam" (not an actual quote, just as an example). I have not seen any like that yet, and if they do exist, it would help my research incredibly, because I could then start assigning values to the quality of stones. 

[Crystin Radiant]

Hmm... I think that in order to measure Stormlight, we need to identify what it is... How does it get into gemstones? Can it be compressed? And if it can, then does the density affect how much light it gives off? (Is the light property of Stormlight an intensive or extensive property?) if it does, then lumens, perhaps. OOH! Just got an interesting idea! Does Stormlight have weight? Say, if we were to have perfectly cut jems that weigh exactly the same and infuse one of them, would it weigh more than the other? (even air has weight, so if it's something like a heated gas, (like neon lights,) then an infused gem would weigh slightly more than a dun gem.

What do you think?

[Patrick Star]

Hmm... I think that in order to measure Stormlight, we need to identify what it is... How does it get into gemstones? Can it be compressed? And if it can, then does the density affect how much light it gives off? (Is the light property of Stormlight an intensive or extensive property?) if it does, then lumens, perhaps. OOH! Just got an interesting idea! Does Stormlight have weight? Say, if we were to have perfectly cut jems that weigh exactly the same and infuse one of them, would it weigh more than the other? (even air has weight, so if it's something like a heated gas, (like neon lights,) then an infused gem would weigh slightly more than a dun gem.

What do you think?

 

In this case, we really don't care how it gets into gemstones.

 

Since I'm treating it as an ideal gas, it can definitely be compressed (PV  =nrt).  A higher density would give off more light.  Otherwise, partially filled spheres would be just as bright as new ones, and Kaladin would light up as soon as he breathed in even a little bit of stormlight.

 

Can't comment on mass.

[Oudeis he/him]

the rate at which stormlight leaks from a gemstone is constant over time until it reaches zero (not proportional to the amount in the stone).

 

I don't believe this is true. Doesn't Shallan comment in Words of Radiance that several of her gemstones have missed the past Highstorm or two, and are putting out less light?

[Moogle]

I don't believe measuring the intensity of Stormlight radiating from a Surgebinder is going to give entirely good results - the more efficient you are, the less you leak, up to the point where Voidbringers can supposedly hold it perfectly (meaning there'd be no leaking). It's not even constant for Radiants, since their bond grows stronger with time, and their efficiency grows with that. And then I'm not sure if higher efficiency means you're less bright (which you'd think would happen, since you'd be leaking less) based on the description of squires not being very bright relative to Radiants (and squires are almost assuredly less efficient).

 

Combine that with how the lighting levels mess with thing - for example, it's a bright day when Kaladin helps Adolin out in the duel, so he can take in a decent amount of Stormlight without it being noticeable - and Honorblades apparently consuming your Stormlight (which makes it so you don't glow as much as a Radiant, even though you probably are holding just as much Stormlight as them, though even that isn't confirmed), and I despair of trying to find a way to measure this sort of thing. And this even assumes you can get an accurate reading of the intensity of the light coming off from people, which you really can't because of how vague the descriptions are.

 

Measuring things is hard.

[Pathfinder]

That is the point of this thread, we have VERY little information to make ANYTHING definitive. My effort is to take loose terms and instances, and through gathering them and roughly codifying them, we get a better rough picture till we get more/better information. If someone can provide ideas, or suggestions on how to get more concrete data based on the information we have at this time, great. Thats why I asked for suggestions, and input on my methodology. I know it is flawed, and the results will not be conclusive. I am just working with what at this point in time we have. I was going to use Szeth first because we have the most early uses of the lashes and battle where he sustains various levels of wounds. Then I was going to do Kaladin to see based on what we have seen so far, if there is a pretty clear difference between the two regarding stormlight use. Renarian, Jasnah, and Shallan we do not see using stormlight enough to try and get an idea of what one could accomplish with how much stormlight. Yes it will vary, yes different gems store a different amount, and yes random amounts are left when characters suddenly open their mouths in surprise. There are tons of variables. I am trying to narrow it down, just to get a picture, regardless how blurry it will be. When more books are released, and more information is attained, the picture can become clearer

[Oudeis he/him]

And then of course there's attrition, which Kaladin says is a parabolic curve, the changing slope of which we know not. So even if there were a way to determine to the second how long every action takes so we can factor in attrition, we'd have nothing but the basest speculation what the curve is, or at which point the Surgebinder was at that given time.

[Patrick Star]

I think that stormlight leakage is separate from stormlight illumination.  Stormlight's shiny, whether it's leaving you or not, so a more efficient radiant with higher stormlight capacity would actually get brighter.  I'm referring to gemstones being unable to hold stormlight indefinitely, which causes them to lose their brightness.  This loss of brightness should be constant, but due to mathematics, it will APPEAR that the gemstones are actually starting to lose stormlight more quickly.  Let's say that 1 milliliter of stormlight puts off 10 lumens.  If I start with 10 milliliters of stormlight and have it leak at a rate of 1 millileter per minute, the light output will go from 100 to 90 to 80 all the way down to zero.  The percentage of light loss is increasing, but the amount of stormlight leakage does not change.

 

As to what Moogle said about honorblades.  There's a WoB that implies that radiants have gemhearts.  Szeth mentions that the human body is really bad at holding stormlight, while a radiant's gemheart would hold it MUCH more efficiently, and almost certainly just hold more.  That could be why Honorblade wielders don't get as bright, they just can't hold as much stormlight as a radiant.  Squires are probably in the same position.

 

Sorry if I rambled there.

[Oudeis he/him]

Hrm. That's not how I've ever seen stormlight as working.

 

In your model, you think Stormlight is a substance which emits, but is not, light. Thus, "the light coming off of something" isn't escaping stormlight itself, it's the glow of the stormlight, like how light coming from a torch isn't the actual process of oxidation.

 

I had always assumed that the light was the stormlight. Now I wonder which it is.

[Moogle]

I think that stormlight leakage is separate from stormlight illumination.  Stormlight's shiny, whether it's leaving you or not, so a more efficient radiant with higher stormlight capacity would actually get brighter. 

 

I don't really feel this makes sense - the "shine" from Stormlight is because you're seeing Stormlight leak from their skin, to me. Stormlight isn't producing light, Surgebinders are leaking Stormlight (which looks like luminous gas). This means that an increase in luminosity should relate to an increase in Stormlight leaked. At least, I think that would be how it works? Your theory really does not match up my intuitions (which isn't to say it's wrong, just that it doesn't quite make sense to me).

 

As to what Moogle said about honorblades.  There's a WoB that implies that radiants have gemhearts.  Szeth mentions that the human body is really bad at holding stormlight, while a radiant's gemheart would hold it MUCH more efficiently, and almost certainly just hold more.  That could be why Honorblade wielders don't get as bright, they just can't hold as much stormlight as a radiant.  Squires are probably in the same position.

 

There's a WoB that RAFOs whether or not Radiants have gemhearts, which isn't quite the same as the WoB implying they do. If they did have gemhearts, we'd expect them to not run out of Stormlight as quick as they do - a sphere with a single chip of a gemstone doesn't run out of Stormlight for days. Kaladin, not so much. I have always had a soft spot for that theory, though.

 

As to Szeth: I imagine users of Honorblades don't get bright for a similar reason that Shallan can hide the Stormlight leaking from her. The "leaked" Stormlight (which leaks equally in all directions from the Radiant) is instead sucked in like a vacuum to the Honorblade, which leaves less for an aura. Also: the Honorblade itself is an additional drain on the Stormlight of the wielder, so the increased strength and healing you'd normally get is halved because the Stormlight has to use itself up powering the Blade, which could explain why Szeth is "weaker" than Kaladin but might be able to suck in the same amount of Light.

 

(I still want to see the crazy insane things Honorblades should be capable of doing based on Kalak's comment on them.)

Edited December 17, 2014 by Moogle

[Pathfinder]

So back to the original topic of thinking of positive ways to narrow down stormlight use and what one can accomplish task wise with varying degrees of stormlight. The best measure I can come up with on how much stormlight a person inhales is based on how much light they are giving off. Does anyone have a better idea to give a more definitive measurement? Secondly, based on how bright the person is, and how much that light diminishes as they accomplish tasks, I intend to use that as an approximate indicator of how much stormlight was used to power that specific ability. Does anyone have a better idea to give a more definitive measurement in that case? I then intend to apply that to Kaladin, and see if between Szeth and Kaladin, whether or not there is a demonstrative difference between how bright Szeth is after using an ability, vs how bright Kaladin is after using an ability. Does anyone have a better idea on how to accomplish this? I am well aware of the limitations, does anyone have any actual ideas on how to OVERCOME these limitations? Otherwise I will use my loose system to accomplish the GOAL I set out at the start of this post. 

[Oudeis he/him]

Sorry, Pathfinder. I know our responses aren't what you want to hear. I wish I could offer more constructive criticism... but honestly, there will be so many random factors we either can't control, can't measure, or would need thousands of points of data to figure out what they mean that your margin of error could be something like 50%. Obviously, you can forge ahead with your plan anyway, and you're right. Odds are, you'll end up with something slightly more accurate than our general guesses.

 

Don't forget to figure out the surface area of Full Lashings, and the mass of Basic Lashings. Would a larger illusion use up more stormlight than a smaller one? A more intricate illusion? One that moves? Does a stronger spiritual connection require less stormlight?

 

Also, how do illusions work with spheres? Do they suck the stormlight right out of spheres, or does she just inhale them unconsciously as she maintains the illusion? Regardless, if you want to come up with an accurate depiction of how much stormlight an illusion takes, you'll have to know how many spheres are nearby and their comparative luminosity before an after the illusion they powered.

 

I wish I could think of a fact I could provide that would encourage you. If you want to compile all of the data, that'd be awesome. Once there's a breakthrough in the books that gives us a yardstick to actually judge this stuff, your notes might help with that. I hope you're not disappointed if you collect it all and find out that there's nothing to learn yet.

 

Please make note of at least the chapter of every example you find, and try to pick out a few specific words that people can ctrl+F their copies for, so that later on when we want to review the data it'll be easy to find them all.

[Moogle]

One thing that came to mind when I was thinking of different ways to measure things was trying to figure out how many gems were drained to power the Surgebinder. Gems generally are going to hold more or less Stormlight based on cut, but even if individual chips have as much as a 50% variance in how much Light they hold, that's going to be more accurate than what we can get based on descriptions of how brightly they're glowing.

 

Another thing is the feeling of Stormlight. Though descriptions are just as sparse as the actual brightness, you feel Stormlight's effects in proportion to how much you're holding. Szeth feels close to "exploding" at one point, so we can use that as a reference point as the max he can hold, and we can try to figure out how many gems he drained to get there. Similarly, when Stormlight is used, it is often described as "reducing the storm within to a drizzle" and the like, whereas brightness changes are generally not described.

 

Taking the raw data and interpreting it according to different theories might prove illuminating, too. How do the numbers change if Kaladin is assumed to hold just as much Stormlight as Szeth? If they look wonky, we might be able to use that to figure out that Kaladin can hold more due to efficiency reasons, which would be some support for the gemheart idea.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

Sorry, Pathfinder. I know our responses aren't what you want to hear. I wish I could offer more constructive criticism... but honestly, there will be so many random factors we either can't control, can't measure, or would need thousands of points of data to figure out what they mean that your margin of error could be something like 50%. Obviously, you can forge ahead with your plan anyway, and you're right. Odds are, you'll end up with something slightly more accurate than our general guesses.

 

Don't forget to figure out the surface area of Full Lashings, and the mass of Basic Lashings. Would a larger illusion use up more stormlight than a smaller one? A more intricate illusion? One that moves? Does a stronger spiritual connection require less stormlight?

 

Also, how do illusions work with spheres? Do they suck the stormlight right out of spheres, or does she just inhale them unconsciously as she maintains the illusion? Regardless, if you want to come up with an accurate depiction of how much stormlight an illusion takes, you'll have to know how many spheres are nearby and their comparative luminosity before an after the illusion they powered.

 

I wish I could think of a fact I could provide that would encourage you. If you want to compile all of the data, that'd be awesome. Once there's a breakthrough in the books that gives us a yardstick to actually judge this stuff, your notes might help with that. I hope you're not disappointed if you collect it all and find out that there's nothing to learn yet.

 

Please make note of at least the chapter of every example you find, and try to pick out a few specific words that people can ctrl+F their copies for, so that later on when we want to review the data it'll be easy to find them all.

 

I am getting a strong feeling of deja vu here...

 

I have to agree with Outis, there is simply too much variance, and the books give no where near the right frame to make any useful conclusions. As Outis and I discussed in another thread (our discussion starts right around here) even in a more controlled, scientific environment (which does not exist in the novels) it would be very difficult to gain useful knowledge. Though do not get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage, but rather want to try to make sure you are not disappointed if the result of your effort is not notable. Good luck!

[Pathfinder]

Don't forget to figure out the surface area of Full Lashings, and the mass of Basic Lashings. Would a larger illusion use up more stormlight than a smaller one? A more intricate illusion? One that moves? Does a stronger spiritual connection require less stormlight?

 

Also, how do illusions work with spheres? Do they suck the stormlight right out of spheres, or does she just inhale them unconsciously as she maintains the illusion? Regardless, if you want to come up with an accurate depiction of how much stormlight an illusion takes, you'll have to know how many spheres are nearby and their comparative luminosity before an after the illusion they powered.

 

I wish I could think of a fact I could provide that would encourage you. If you want to compile all of the data, that'd be awesome. Once there's a breakthrough in the books that gives us a yardstick to actually judge this stuff, your notes might help with that. I hope you're not disappointed if you collect it all and find out that there's nothing to learn yet.

 

Please make note of at least the chapter of every example you find, and try to pick out a few specific words that people can ctrl+F their copies for, so that later on when we want to review the data it'll be easy to find them all.

Actually the questions you started asking about size of illusion, mass of an object, and so on WERE the questions I was hoping for. Those are observations I have seen mentioned in the books that I could take into account, just like the damage healed variance. I am kind of working backwards in my responses to the quotes, so I do reply to the number of gems issue below. I have seen the illusions and lashings on other peoples as transference of stormlight with intent. When Szeth, at least the first instance we see that is, lashes the guard to the ceiling, the required amount of stormlight actually leaves his body, and is absorbed by the opponent. the opponent then glows and his lashed till the stormlight goes out. So I see that as needing a certain amount of stormlight to activate the ability, and a certain amount to give the ability a duration. Once that stormlight is exhausted, the ability stops. Same stands with illusions. So making up arbitrary numbers, I have a value of 10 stormlight inhaled in me, I lose a value of 1 stormlight per round. It takes 3 stormlight to lash, and I want it to last 2 rounds, so i pour 6 stormlight into my foe to lash him upwards, and he stay there for 2 rounds. Now this is using dnd terms, and arbitrary numbers, but this is the kind of concept I am trying to gain a loose understanding of. I was originally going to quote the full passage, but upon reading the first scene I realized it would become insanely long, but that is a good point, and I will aim for certain keywords as well as chapter and page number that will hopefully allow for ease of reference for others. 

 

One thing that came to mind when I was thinking of different ways to measure things was trying to figure out how many gems were drained to power the Surgebinder. Gems generally are going to hold more or less Stormlight based on cut, but even if individual chips have as much as a 50% variance in how much Light they hold, that's going to be more accurate than what we can get based on descriptions of how brightly they're glowing.

 

Another thing is the feeling of Stormlight. Though descriptions are just as sparse as the actual brightness, you feel Stormlight's effects in proportion to how much you're holding. Szeth feels close to "exploding" at one point, so we can use that as a reference point as the max he can hold, and we can try to figure out how many gems he drained to get there. Similarly, when Stormlight is used, it is often described as "reducing the storm within to a drizzle" and the like, whereas brightness changes are generally not described.

 

Taking the raw data and interpreting it according to different theories might prove illuminating, too. How do the numbers change if Kaladin is assumed to hold just as much Stormlight as Szeth? If they look wonky, we might be able to use that to figure out that Kaladin can hold more due to efficiency reasons, which would be some support for the gemheart idea.

True but unfortunately as far as I have seen, when Szeth draws in stormlight, he just says from gems, he rarely states how many gems, otherwise I would totally use that in my calculations. As well as the quality of gem. So far the color is occasionally mentioned, but I do not recall, besides soulcasting, does the type of gem matter with how much stormlight it can hold? How the character feels while holding the stormlight is an excellent point and I will attempt to work that in, thanks!

 

 

Though do not get me wrong, I am not trying to discourage, but rather want to try to make sure you are not disappointed if the result of your effort is not notable. Good luck!

I appreciate the concern and consideration, but I view scenarios like this as fun mental exercises to occupy my brain with. So even if in the end something pops up in the 3rd book that completely negates any of my findings, it was still a fun past time. Thanks for the good luck!

[Dahak he/him]

Thanks for the info! Do you recall any quotes that go to the extent of "he inhaled stormlight from a pure cut emerald broam" (not an actual quote, just as an example). I have not seen any like that yet, and if they do exist, it would help my research incredibly, because I could then start assigning values to the quality of stones. 

 

There's the bit where Sigzail is trying to work out how to measure Stormlight in Words of Radiance