[Theory] Cause of the Recreance

[Shlee]

There's no sign anywhere that Honorblades let their Herald consume Stormlight more efficiently is the idea I was trying to get across. There's no WoBs, but I would be shocked to find that Honorblades have special "Herald-detection" things in them that let Heralds use Stormlight more efficiently. Syl is quite clear that the Honorblades are consuming Szeth's Stormlight, much like a sort of weaker version of Nightblood. I think it's more a matter that people like Szeth just don't know how to operate Honorblades' secrets rather than Heralds getting special abilities with them.

 

I'd disagree with this, because I think you can compare what happens with Shardblades - a true "shardblade bond" is the Nahel bond and a fake shardbond is the gemstone bonding ritual that Renarin does. People with the first type have considerably more power/ability than people using the second.

 

I think this can be paralleled with Honorblades - each is bonded to a Herald and disappears when they die.  Szeth's blade does not disappear when he dies, so I do not believe he can be bonded to it in the same way the Heralds are. So once again, I think two separate types of bonds exist - one that is "fully functional" (herald to his blade) and one that is not (like the dead-spren to shardbearer bonds).

 

Granted, there's no proof this is the case, but I think it the more likely scenario, especially given that Szeth's bond is showing differences than what we are told by Kalak.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Shlee

[Moogle]

I think this can be paralleled with Honorblades - each is bonded to a Herald and disappears when they die.  Szeth's blade does not disappear when he dies, so I do not believe he can be bonded to it in the same way the Heralds are.

 

We have different views on this, I think. The thing with Szeth was that he died, and all bonds from him to everything else were broken. When Heralds "die", I suspect the same thing is not happening with them. They don't actually die, they're just transported elsewhere. I imagine if Jezrien were bonded to Shallash's Blade for whatever reason when he died during a Desolation, he'd get to keep it. You only lose your Blade if you actually die, basically, is my feeling.

 

My view is that the Heralds are special in that they don't actually die when mortally injured, not that the Honorblades have anything special going on with them. We don't have much evidence to go off of here, but I disagree with your assumption that the same thing thing happens to Heralds when they die as a regular person dying. Heralds come back from "death", so we should expect something special and different happens with them.

Edited February 14, 2015 by Moogle

[Shlee]

We have different views on this, I think. The thing with Szeth was that he died, and all bonds from him to everything else were broken. When Heralds "die", I suspect the same thing is not happening with them. They don't actually die, they're just transported elsewhere. I imagine if Jezrien were bonded to Shallash's Blade for whatever reason when he died during a Desolation, he'd get to keep it. You only lose your Blade if you actually die, basically, is my feeling.

 

My view is that the Heralds are special in that they don't actually die when mortally injured, not that the Honorblades have anything special going on with them. We don't have much evidence to go off of here, but I disagree with your assumption that the same thing thing happens to Heralds when they die as a regular person dying. Heralds come back from "death", so we should expect something special and different happens with them.

Ah, I see what you're saying, we are coming at it from two totally different angles, but I don't think a Herald has died a "true" death to break the bond with their blade, so I'm still of the opinion that they are all bonded to their original blades with the "true" bond or whatever they originally had. And Szeth's dying doesn't really prove anything one way or another - shardblades that aren't Nahel bonded still break their bonds with the owner's death, so Honorblades that aren't "truly" bonded could easily do the same thing. 

 

I guess basically my theory is that there is something equivalent to the Nahel bond that bonds the Heralds to their individual blades and the bond between Szeth and the honor blade is analogous to the bond between regular shardbearers and dead shardblades. I think that's also why the blades look different - Szeth's is described as plain, when it should have had glyphs and such, the dead shardblades don't glow properly or have glyphs, but the "live" ones do. I think it points to a parallel situation where both blades have two "types" of bond.

[Moogle]

...

 

Your perspective here is interesting, even if I don't really find the theory likely here.

 

I don't really have a lot I can add to this discussion, unfortunately. There's too little evidence. I don't know though, I just don't really have feel for this idea of there being a "true" bond. Bonds are well, bonds to me. I don't see there as being a super huge difference between a Radiant and someone with a bonded dead Shardblade, the main difference is just how they acquired the bond and the state of the spren.

 

It's a perspective we differ on, it seems. The bond between someone and a dead Shardblade is I think quite strong. It's not a "fake" bond to me, the issue to me is that the spren has lost something vital. I feel like if you could somehow repair the spren while you still had bonded to it through a gemstone on the hilt, you'd get Surgebinding like any Radiant. I sort of see it like Hemalurgy.

 

But this is all very hard to back up. It's just feelings on me for how everything works under the hood. I like it when things are simple and elegant as possible, without exceptions or special behaviors. The idea of there being "special" bonds between Heralds and their Blades just kinda doesn't sit well with me. It's entirely personal preference to me at this point because of the huge lack of evidence, so I can't really argue for/against your points.

 

I guess we'll just have to wait for more books to find out more about how it works!

Edited February 15, 2015 by Moogle

[dvoraen]

Personally, I think it's a combination of what the two of you (Moogle & Shlee) said:

 

- It's a partial bond with a dead Nahel spren; partial, in that the one who binds a given 'dead' Shardblade obviously isn't able to do more with the spren in question aside from summon as a blade.  In other words, a given individual can only bond to the Blade aspect (Identity?) of a dead spren; the spren isn't alive to allow for the use of Surgebinding, communication with an Oathgate mechanism, etc.

 

- Likewise, we have the Honorblades, which can be bonded to for Surgebinding (no checks required as with a live spren), however there are obvious differences as noted, in that the Honorblade doesn't "revive" its ornamentation, and the Honorblade is left behind even if its owner perishes (as shown by Szeth and also heavily implied by Szeth's POVs about it).  So again, it's not a complete bond with an Honorblade in that the person who bonds to it either can't fully do so, or there's a missing aspect on the Blade end.  I suspect in this case it's because a person who would fully use an Honorblade's capabilities has to say Words that are specific to the Heralds and their 'divine duties' (a pact or bond with Honor, perhaps?), if not specific to each Blade itself.  Every Radiant Order has specific Words, and the Nahel spren emulated the Honorblade in question, so it's possible that an Honorblade's full powers require a specific Oath/Words, unique to each Blade.  This, again, takes me back to Gavilar's dying words.

Edited February 15, 2015 by dvoraen

[neuxue]

This is a bit of a stretch, but...

 

What if using the power of the Stormlight corrupts or dilutes it in some way? Stormlight itself seems to be a thing of Honour (generated/replenished by highstorms, which the Stormfather claims). Maybe it serves some purpose in working to repel Odium somehow, and when humans use it, it drains that power?

 

We know that if the Heralds remain on Roshar too long, they will trigger a Desolation - maybe part of this is due to the fact that they would be using and draining stormlight. Meanwhile when they're off being tortured, Roshar (or whatever is left of Honour) can 'recharge' so that there is then enough stormlight to repel Odium's next attempt.

 

This seems like the sort of thing that, if it were true and the Radiants found out, could cause them to re-think and possibly give up their positions. It would also provide one possible explanation for them leaving their now-dead spren Blades - leaving some necessary defences for the rest of humanity that would not use excessive amounts of stormlight.

 

It also would tie in to the fall of Urithiru, which requires vast amounts of stormlight to access and run. If they found out that draining stormlight was a problem, they would abandon such a place.

[natc]

So you're basically suggesting that the whole planet is operating as a reversed Well of Ascension?

[neuxue]

I hadn't considered it in those terms (to be honest it occurred to me as I was thinking about an entirely different fictional multiverse) but I suppose that's somewhat similar. 

[Eilemelie]

It might (or might not) be important to know wherther or not Honor was still alive at the Recreance. Anyhow, I do believe there is support to be gathered for the fact that he was, and in a quote that has been mentioned several times in this thread nontheless!

'"Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance."'

So what Pattern says is that spren with minds, Nahel spren, were less common at the Recreance than they are in pressent day Roshar. Spren should by no means be able to reproduce on their own, so that leavs us two options.

1. Spren of other sorts can gain minds and become Nahel spren. The case of Syl starting out in a windspren state of mind seems yo support this at first glance, but she regains memmories of life before - as a Honor spren. So it is more the case of a mind subdued than the gain of one.

2. More spren came into being at an unknown point in time, after the Recreance, with the splintering of Honor. This forces Tanavast's death and Honor's splintering closer to the pressent and gives him the abillity to see and react to the Recreance - as seen in Dalinars vision. The alternative here would be that he looked into the future and saw these actions taking place, something that he admits to being bad at. Though bad still implies an ability... so it is not foolproof.

[hoser he/him]

This makes sense, but I see other possibilities. 

It might (or might not) be important to know wherther or not Honor was still alive at the Recreance. Anyhow, I do believe there is support to be gathered for the fact that he was, and in a quote that has been mentioned several times in this thread nontheless!

'"Not just one people," Pattern said, solemn. "Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance."'

So what Pattern says is that spren with minds, Nahel spren, were less common at the Recreance than they are in pressent day Roshar. Spren should by no means be able to reproduce on their own, so that leavs us two options.

1. Spren of other sorts can gain minds and become Nahel spren. The case of Syl starting out in a windspren state of mind seems yo support this at first glance, but she regains memmories of life before - as a Honor spren. So it is more the case of a mind subdued than the gain of one.

2. More spren came into being at an unknown point in time, after the Recreance, with the splintering of Honor. This forces Tanavast's death and Honor's splintering closer to the pressent and gives him the abillity to see and react to the Recreance - as seen in Dalinars vision. The alternative here would be that he looked into the future and saw these actions taking place, something that he admits to being bad at. Though bad still implies an ability... so it is not foolproof.

Pattern describes patterns in nature evolving to become cryptics.  So spren could continuously be coming into being, possibly using the increased free investiture from the splintering of Honor.  It could all be true actually.  Honorspren could evolve from windspren, but Cryptics evolve from patterns.  I know nothing, except that Pattern seems to imply that the newer spren didn't come into being all at once, IIRC.  

[The Dragon Reborn]

I always thought the recreance happened right after the Almighty got splintered because the quote right before chapter 2 was ""Ten Orders. We were loved, once. Why have you forsaken us Almighty! Shard of my soul, where have you gone?""

This led me to believe that when Honor was splintered, strange events started happening to the Radiants such as their powers may have grown weaker. They then left their posts because they believed themselves unwanted my Honor, or something similar to that.

I also believe that when the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact it somehow let Odium have a chance to kill/splinter Honor, but I have no proof of that.

Edited February 19, 2016 by The Dragon Reborn

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Sorry, accidental down vote of the OP that was meant to be an up vote :/