How It Should Have Ended

[Oudeis]

Inspired by these geniuses.

 

"The storm will blow the wrong way... or, is it every other storm that's blown the wrong way?" Venli smiled.

"Wait... the wrong way? As in, west to east?"

"Yes. We'll have to wait until we're right on top of them."

"...No, that's a terrible idea. Let's just circle them."

"...What?"

"Well if we wait until they reach us... first of all, we'll just be sitting here waiting, and I want the humans dead now. I mean, what are we waiting for, some sort of arbitrary timeline prophecied in carvings on a wall? And second, we'd have to have half of our forces defending against the Alethi army while the other half summons the storm. Not only does that mean some of our warriors will die, but since we've already established that the more of us summon the storm at once the better, let's just have everyone sing at once."

"But... the Alethi are west of us."

"Yeah, and the Plains aren't a single line. We take a few hours, travel northward about fifteen, twenty miles, enough to be way out of range of their scouts, and hoof it westward. We get past their army, sing our kumbayah with twice the listeners, and we win, several days ahead of schedule. Hey, we can even set up on the Tower, that's a nice dramatic place to stand when we kill a huge chunk of the Alethi armies."

"That... I see nothing wrong with that plan. Let's do it!"

[Secret Ardent Man]

Or maybe.....


Kaladin looked down upon the Honor Chasm. "It's easier this way," he thought to himself. He took the leap. 

 

OR....

 

Szeth stared with wide eyes at Kaladin's glowing form and whispered, "Are they back? Are they all back?"

 

"Yes," Kaladin said. It felt like the right response. 

 

"NO!" The Shin cried out as he burst alight once again. "I AM TRUTHLESS! I know! I'll just stab you with this here Shardblade, since you don't seem to have one yourself! That should answer all of my questions, and then I'll go back and kill the highprince." He smiled brightly. "That should just about do it!"

 

Well, crap, Kaladin thought. The shardblade flashed. Darkness. 

[Mimiddle04]

The Parshendi aren't waiting for the prophecy, the prophecy showed when they would call the Everstorm.  There is a subtle but extremely important difference. If they'd done it three days sooner from a different spot the prophecy would have counted down to 3 days sooner.  It doesn't matter when, the countdown would have been accurate.

 

Aside from what Secret Ardent Man points out, in a sarcastic and accurate way, about how at any point Sanderson could have ended the story with a few changes, I feel like this was a bad change to end the book to choose because it's actually well explained.

 

They can't change all their people to stormform until they can all get a storm spren in a Highstorm.  They can't do that until they convince everyone to change and that takes some time.  They also wouldn't want to waste the Everstorm's power on hitting the Alethi while they're in their war camps because it's much more destructive out on the plains and while they don't have stone barracks to protect them.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Oudeis]

I think I wasn't clear enough in the OP. Let me clarify now.
 
Also, I disagree with you on certain points.
 

The Parshendi aren't waiting for the prophecy, the prophecy showed when they would call the Everstorm.  There is a subtle but extremely important difference. If they'd done it three days sooner from a different spot the prophecy would have counted down to 3 days sooner.  It doesn't matter when, the countdown would have been accurate.

Eeehhhh... that's a terrible trope in other fantasies that Mr. Sanderson has done an excellent job avoiding, in my opinion. (Warbreaker being a slight exception). I can't prove your wrong, but I hope very much you are. If nothing anyone did mattered after Renarin wrote his prophecy, the whole book is boring. To be clear, you're talking as though I don't understand the trope of prophecy. I understand it perfectly, and I think it's terrible, and I hope it's not the case.

 

And, as I point out, it's kind of crazy. The listeners have a spy within Bridge 4. They almost certainly know that the humans have a prophecy counting down to a day the Everstorm comes. Eshonai knows tactics. If people are expecting something terrible to happen on Tuesday, and you want something terrible to happen, you don't sit and wait until they're prepared. You strike on Sunday when they'll have no idea something is coming. By your logic, they're not allowed to do that. They know the prophecy, they see it coming, they made a decision based on the information of the prophecy... and you're now telling me they're not allowed to do that. You say if they did it three days earlier, the prophecy would have said three days earlier. But since they know the prophecy, why aren't they allowed to choose, "Whatever day the prophecy doesn't say"? Whatever day the Alethi will not be expecting it? This is, and has always been, the problem with prophecy. It was a beaten dead horse by the time of ancient Greece, because it sounds all nice and poetical but makes no bloody sense.

As I've said, Mr. Sanderson has avoided this trope before. In Way of Kings, there's a Death Rattle which says, "It is a thousand days, and the Everstorm comes." It was off by almost 25%. If prophecies are only that accurate on Roshar, it could have been 15 days in either direction.

Mistborn spoilers

Atium only sees a few seconds into the future, and even without Invested help, Vin is able to prove it inaccurate.

Perfect prophecies remove agency from the characters. A story about characters with no agency is the story of a rock falling off a cliff.
 

They can't change all their people to stormform until they can all get a storm spren in a Highstorm.  They can't do that until they convince everyone to change and that takes some time.  They also wouldn't want to waste the Everstorm's power on hitting the Alethi while they're in their war camps because it's much more destructive out on the plains and while they don't have stone barracks to protect them.

The final Highstorm was 2 weeks before the human army made it to Narak. Two weeks that the listeners spent sitting in their city, kicking their heels, doing nothing, just waiting. Two weeks Dalinar's coalition spent slowly crossing the plains, entirely exposed, counting on weeks and weeks of Hightstormless weather so they don't all die.

I didn't say they would attack the warcamps, which they can't anyway. It's been made fairly clear that the listeners cannot escape the Shattered Plains, so there's no way for them to get west of the camps. What they could have done would have been to get west of the army.

                                   Stormform---------------------------+
                                                                                      |
                                                                                      |
Warcamps------------------Tower--------Alethi-Army-----Narak

If the listeners had spent those two weeks simply going north, they could have passed the Alethi, drawn even with the Tower, and sent the Everstorm to kill the Army while they were sitting on the plains, not even close to what meager shelter Narak would have provided.

What they ended up doing was splitting their army in two; half the listeners were singing the Everstorm up, while the other half had to fight and die to protect the singers. If they'd sat out in the plains, dozens of miles west of the Army, there would have been no reason to put anyone on guard. Not only would there be no army to fight, so not a single listener would have died, but they could have had twice as many listeners singing, and Eshonai made it clear that they needed as many as they could get.

[king of nowhere]

Vin burned the mists

Suddenly new allomantic lines sprang up, connecting her with the atium bracelets piercing the lord ruler's arm. she pushed on them, and they ripped free, rashek screaming in pain.

She further pushed them out of the window, but they suddenly seemed rooted in place. Of course, he's still an allomancer, he's pulling with iron. the bracers then slowly crawled towards the lord ruler's hand

"well, now that's a smart girl. You know, I see that kind of rebellions every century, but no one ever tried to do that before. not that it would do any good. it would still take a few minutes for me to die, and i can recover those bracers any time i want.

Vin flared with everything she had. the bracers remained still, and she smashed on the far wall. saze said he could increase his wheight, right? i'll never win a pushing match...she noticed cracks on the floor benheat the throne. He must have become really heavy.

"sorry girl, it's a pity, but there is a world-destroying abomination trapped that someone else might release. nothing personal"

there was a blur. a moment the lord ruler was on the other side of the room, the next he was in front of her with an outstretched arm. vin numbingly realized that he had punched her, crushing her chest and ripping a hole in the wall behind. his own hand was broken beyond recognition, but it reknit back into shape within seconds. she did not feel pain. she was beyond that. she wondered why that creature didn't show off his powers more often. they would have never tried to rebel if they had known just how invincible he really was. really, it would have just saved them a whole lot of effort.

her last thought was a happy one. at least she was going wherever kelsier was, and she was sure elend would follow soon. It's just so easy to escape the tiranny of the lord ruler. all one had to do... was... to die.

[Moogle]

I am inordinately happy that other people share my issues with how Vin defeated TLR.

[Newan]

Mistborn 3 spoilers

Sazed went to mope through his list of religions, but realized that all of the papers had been torn up.  Who would do such a thing?

 

A spirit of mist coalesced in front of him.  

 

"Are you irrefutable evidence of an ancient and complex supernatural history on Scadrial?" Sazed asked the specter. 

 

The mist spirit waved its arms around.

[king of nowhere]

I am inordinately happy that other people share my issues with how Vin defeated TLR.

ah, well, truth to be told, it's not completely unnreasonable that the lord ruler, upon losing the bracers, panicked and simply forgot that he could use iron to get them back. he wasn't used to keep a clear head under pressure, since he hadn't been under pressure for some nine centuries. and i doubt he practiced much in the way of fighting/using his powers either. for all his life, his reaction to dropping some trinket on the ground would be "servant, fetch it". Same goes for not tapping zinc to think better in that moment.

After all, I myself, when playing league of legends, keep forgetting about my own activated abilities once a fight begins. even when, just before the fight, i'm thinking "i must remember that I have the locket of the iron solari to activate to give all the team a 200 hp shield. This time I absolutely will remember" and then i die and i think "oh, damnation, I forgot about it again". or maybe i remember using it after all my teammates are dead and i'm the only one left standing. So, maybe I am the only dumbass who even after four years of playing almost daily keeps forgetting to activate his items, but from my point of view it is perfectly reasonable to forget something vital under pressure.

And, after all, that's part of suspension of disbelief. Yes, we all know that in any book or movie the villain could have triumphed many times over. after all, in all those cases at the beginning the villain is much more powerful than the hero, otherwise there would be little suspence. If the writing is good then those errors from the villain will be reasonable. and if they are reasonable enough, suspension of disbelief is not challenged.

Sometimes they are too much of a stretch, but with sanderson it has never been the case, at least for me.

If I had to pick one villain mistake in a sanderson book that came close to that, it would be the listeners not summoning the storm the way the op had suggested. they had weeks to think about it, and every one of the commanding guys of the listeners could have had the idea. maybe stormform makes them more promne to direct confrontation and less to sneaking? we know that a listener form influences the way one think, so that for example considering violence as a viable option is difficult in workform.

 

EDIT

 

Mistborn 3 spoilers

Sazed went to mope through his list of religions, but realized that all of the papers had been torn up.  Who would do such a thing?

 

A spirit of mist coalesced in front of him.  

 

"Are you irrefutable evidence of an ancient and complex supernatural history on Scadrial?" Sazed asked the specter. 

 

The mist spirit waved its arms around.

oh, man, that was so brilliant. I just love the way you built that exchange. I find particularly funny the contrast between saze's  flowery speech and the bluntness and directness of the mist spirit's actions.

Edited December 16, 2014 by king of nowhere

[Mckeedee123]

While the Listeners are in Stormform they really aren't themselves, are they? The spren who control them probably don't care if their hosts get killed.

 

And the Alethi probably had scouts on all sides of the army to make sure they knew if the Parshendi would try to escape/get around them. It was some Alethi scouts who found Rlain, if I'm not mistaken.

Edited December 16, 2014 by mckeedee123

[Fatebreaker]

Well of Ascension Spoilers

Vin held the immense power within her as she stood at the Well of Ascension.

I must release it. Elend's safe now. I must release the power...

 

Or I could just keep it and solve all our problems.

Yeah, that makes alot more sense.

 

And so she kept the power and Ruin remained imprisoned and Vin was able to solve ALL of their problems.

The end.

[Oudeis]

While the Listeners are in Stormform they really aren't themselves, are they? The spren who control them probably don't care if their hosts get killed.

 

And the Alethi probably had scouts on all sides of the army to make sure they knew if the Parshendi would try to escape/get around them. It was some Alethi scouts who found Rlain, if I'm not mistaken.

 

First, it's a huge leap to assume that the stormformers were literally suicidal. And they'd have to be. It's not a matter of doing something riskier or difficult in order to save lives, it's doing something significantly easier to save lives, and far more guaranteed. The Alethi armies almost stopped the song. If the listeners had been by themselves with a karaoke machine, they would have finished without risking failure.

 

Sidenote: The voidspren, that we know of, have no reason to fear or hate the Alethi, specifically. All they should want is the Everstorm, as soon as possible. If they were truly able to utterly subjugate the listeners, they would have summoned the Everstorm the very day after the final highstorm, when they had as many listeners as they were gonna get. Their target is the continent, not one army. The fact that they didn't implies they're able to strongly influence the listeners, but not control them completely. (Or, admittedly, that the voidspren had some reason we don't know about why they needed to attack the Alethi.)

 

Second, the alethi scouts were two or three plateaus over. The shattered plains are literally the size of a small country. This is why I commented that they'd go about 15 miles north before cutting west.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Ooklalhoo'Elin

[Mckeedee123]

First, it's a huge leap to assume that the stormformers were literally suicidal. And they'd have to be. It's not a matter of doing something riskier or difficult in order to save lives, it's doing something significantly easier to save lives, and far more guaranteed. The Alethi armies almost stopped the song. If the listeners had been by themselves with a karaoke machine, they would have finished without risking failure.

 

Sidenote: The voidspren, that we know of, have no reason to fear or hate the Alethi, specifically. All they should want is the Everstorm, as soon as possible. If they were truly able to utterly subjugate the listeners, they would have summoned the Everstorm the very day after the final highstorm, when they had as many listeners as they were gonna get. Their target is the continent, not one army. The fact that they didn't implies they're able to strongly influence the listeners, but not control them completely. (Or, admittedly, that the voidspren had some reason we don't know about why they needed to attack the Alethi.)

 

Second, the alethi scouts were two or three plateaus over. The shattered plains are literally the size of a small country. This is why I commented that they'd go about 15 miles north before cutting west.

 

I hear yah, I hear yah... Maybe you should ask Brandon about this. Then you can get him to make up a canon answer for it.   

[harry31j97]

I'm with king of nowhere on this issue. Personally I don't think plot holes (or suspension of disbelief as he calls it) matter as long as they're not stupidly obvious while reading (or watching in case of movies), as long as novel or movie are engaging enough that people don't notice it at that time. As for Parshendi not doing as OP has suggested, do remember that no military leader is perfect. It could just as easily be a tactical mistake made by them, after all we suggest things one could have done differently all the time in hindsight.

[lol_king]

The parshendi didn't lose, they fought to a stalemate, and succeeded in summoning the everstorm which would have decimated the Alethi if not for the oathgate which the parshendi didn't know about, even Rlain didn't know. Also neither the Alethi nor the parshendi had anything to do with the surprise highstorm which combined with everstorm may have destroyed the stormform parshendi but no confirmation is given, do they may still be alive.

So i don't see it as much of a plot hole. It was a pretty good plan and it kind of worked.

Edited December 16, 2014 by lol_king

[Moogle]

ah, well, truth to be told, it's not completely unnreasonable that the lord ruler, upon losing the bracers, panicked and simply forgot that he could use iron to get them back. he wasn't used to keep a clear head under pressure, since he hadn't been under pressure for some nine centuries. and i doubt he practiced much in the way of fighting/using his powers either. for all his life, his reaction to dropping some trinket on the ground would be "servant, fetch it". Same goes for not tapping zinc to think better in that moment.

 

TLR fought battles for tons of years, and almost got beheaded and burned alive a few times. I'm not sure I can just accept that he would forget how to use literally all of his powers (note he stops Pushing on Vin when he loses his bracers ???) the moment something like that happens - he's got plenty of experience on that end.

 

And, I note, Vin is under many similar situations where there's massive pressure on her, and she always keeps a cool head herself. Like... say... when she's being crushed alive, while TLR's soul-crushing aura of despair is pressing on her, while "barely able to think", while in utter agony, she solves a riddle like the fact that TLR is a Feruchemist, and then further manages to determine that these bracers piercing him are certainly the only thing keeping him alive, and then TLR mysteriously isn't tapping weight at the time despite the fact that he did that the last time she tried to Push/Pull on the metals on him. Like, seriously, she just tried the Pulling trick on him and he reacted immediately. But this time... he didn't? It can't be the power of the mists, because TLR is a Feruchemist, and as a Compounder he surely has stores of weight so vast that he could beat even the mists for the two seconds Vin tries pulling on him. Feruchemy has no upper limit.

 

And then don't forget the part where instead of killing her absently like he did Kelsier, he plays with her:

But then, he was there, moving with a speed as if to make the fury of a tornado’s winds seem sluggish. Even within a full pewter flare, Vin couldn’t outrun him. He almost seemed casual as he reached out, grabbing her shoulder and yanking her backward.

He flung her like a doll, tossing her toward one of the room’s massive support pillars. Vin quested desperately for an anchor, but he had blown all of the metal out of the room. Except… She Pulled on one of the Lord Ruler’s own bracelets, ones that didn’t pierce his skin. He immediately whipped his arm upward, throwing off her Pull, making her spin maladroitly in the air.

 

Kind of out of character, there.

 

Note too that he reacts immediately - he's tapping from his zincminds, I think. Which means he should have recognized she was Pulling on him, which means he could have (assuming he didn't want to just tap a bunch of weight), supersped up to her and punched her face in. She was Pulling him, after all.

 

He could have just given her the ol' right hook and killed her like Kelsier... but he doesn't. (???)

 

I mean, yeah, it isn't an immediate plothole, but in retrospect it just comes across as highly questionable. Maybe his atium bracers were more than just atium, and were Feruchemical nicrosil or something and he was using them to power himself. That sort of clashes with the part where he was wearing other jewelry though... and still doesn't explain the part where it seems like he's tapping Feruchemical nicrosil to the point where he can react to Pulls and Pushes on his jewlery instantly, but somehow failed to think of anything to do the moment Vin started Pulling on his atiumminds.

 

I had plenty of suspension of disbelief at the time, but then we learned how Compounding works, and I thought there was no way TLR should have lost and it's just been bothering me forever now.

 

Edit: And, then, since apparently TLR is tapping a ridiculous amount of weight the moment Vin tries to Pull on his stuff, it's clear that his Pushes should be even more superpowered than they already were via Wax in AoL. While tapping weight, he was able to explode a building.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Moogle

[king of nowhere]

We have confirmation that the lord ruler was toying with vin instead of killing her immediately because of ruin's influence.

And I can see how he may grow far overconfident exactly because I know how compounding works.

AS for vin thinking under pressure, simply some people are better at it than others. and in retrospect, knowing what kind of power he has, he must have been terrible at thinking under pressure. Back when he was conquering the world, he almost got beheaded, and he almost got burned alive, two things that could actually kill him if they go far enough. The thing is, simply touching him should have been utterly impossible for his enemies. if he actually got close to being killed a few times, he wasn't doing things right. After all, there is no reason to assume he's anywhere near a competent fighter. he just had so incredible powers that he was practically invincible, and didn't need any skill to top that.

Also, all his fighting experience came over 900 years before. That's more than enough time to become rusty. ANd I doubt something like "combat experience" can be stored in a coppermind.

So, I can totally see someone like him panicking and not realizing he could simply recover the bracers with airon.

 

Last point, burning the mists is extremely powerful. vin had all her limbs broken in the third book, but after taking the mist in she was able to stand and fight easily. I'm not sure even compounding can overcome that. it is possible that with the power of the mist she may have been able to defeat the lord ruler anyway.

Which make me think...

(spoiler for mistborn 3)

Vin walked in the old throne room searching for her earring. she was still in pain for all the punishment she had taken from the lord ruler two days before, but with the mist she could bear it. in fact, it appeared to be much more powerful than ordinary pewter. she had no idea why she could do that, but she was determined to explore the phenomenon. they had been two busy days, with the imperial government collapsing and elend being elected king, and she hadn't had time before. For the moment, while she had carried metals with her just in case, she preferred the more powerful mists.

Blue lines sprang to her from a multitude of metal objects. she fished them out of piles of rubble. A coin. A nail. A button. A flattened chalice. Ah, here it is. she took the earring and put it on.

Immediately, contact with the mist vanished. She took out the earring, and she could burn the mists again.

She set out to look for saze. I'm sure that will eventually answer questions that we can't even imagine right now

[Oudeis]

Mistborn

 

Also, keep in mind, Vin was still Mist-powered at the time. When she Pushed the bracers away from him, she was anchored against him by his own Push, and she was stronger at steel than he was at iron because of the Mists. He may have been trying to use iron to keep them on his person. At the start of Mistborn 2 Elend gets into a Push match with the Inquisitor and since his Pushes are stronger, the coin goes towards the Inquisitor.

 

I confess I'm a little fuzzy on the exact physics, but I don't think it's as simple a matter as "iron feruchemy simply makes pushes stronger." Wax is able to tear down a house, not because each individual push is stronger, but because... well, if Vin and Wax pushed on two similar nails, they would rocket forward as fast as they were gonna. Wax can tap all the weight he wants; the nail will not move faster. It's physics. The steel is adding a specific amount of energy to the equation, translating into kinetic energy compelling the two masses further from each other. A nail simply never has the mass to shove Vin back, not even a millimeter. Wax having more weight will not cause him to move any less than Vin by any appreciable amount.

 

Where iron feruchemy helps him is in other areas. For example, if the nail hits a wall. Now, the nail has something to brace against. The energy is still forcing the two of them apart. Since the nail can brace better than Vin can, Vin will be shoved backwards. Vin's body will give first. This is where Wax's feruchemy comes in handy. He can make himself weigh so much that he's braced by default. The same energy is trying to shove Wax and the nail apart, but now the wall is more likely to give before Wax does.

 

With the nails, it gets slightly more complicated. If Vin were above a building, she could pick a single nail and Push against it. If she got the angle right, it would be shoved down while she was shoved up, and with her body's weight, this could force the nail down. But if she's trying to do several nails at once, she's now splitting her one quantity of mass amongst many nails, and each individual portion can now hold. Wax destroys the building because he can tap enough weight to displace amongst every single nail, so basically in every single case each nail is being Pushed by steel, against something weighing enough that Steel cannot move it.

 

This is why The Lord Ruler's weight wouldn't help him keep his bracers. In fact, this is why exactly what happened, happened. Vin Pushed on the bracers. Let's say The Lord Ruler was Pulling on them. Her Push was stronger than his, because Mists, so just like the coin between Elend and the Inquisitor, it obeys the stronger force and flies away.

 

But, the Lord Ruler has powerful allomancy, so his iron should still have worked. However, since the bracers were flying away, he should have gone with them. The relative distance between them should have decreased. It didn't. Why? I suspect because he weighed too much.

 

It's like the coin trapped between Kelsier and Vin. They were both Pushing, and they were both braced. Energy was entering the system, it simply wasn't enough to overcome other forces at play. So. The Lord Ruler's iron allomancy. It couldn't draw the bracers close, because Vin's steelpush was too strong. It couldn't drag the Lord Ruler to the bracers, because the Lord Ruler weighed too much. So the force was there, trying but failing to pull the two things together, like me with my scrawny little arms trying to pull back the bowstring on a crossbow. It's not that I'm not tugging as strong as I can, it's not like my arms can't accomplish other feats. I'm just not strong enough compared to the other forces at play to make a noticeable difference.

 

By this reasoning, he really should have released his feruchemical iron. I suspect he's used to the fact that it typically simulates stronger Pushes and Pulls, and didn't realize that if he stopped Pushing on Vin, and started storing Iron, he could easily pull himself to his bracers, even if he couldn't pull his bracers to himself.

[Pathfinder]

So here is a thought that as far as I know of, we have no idea of in the books. Could as you get older, your allomancy/feruchemy get weaker? So then the Lord Ruler would be dealing with the pain from them being ripped away, the pain of his body quickly aging so having trouble focusing, and while he was aging his abilities weakened preventing him from yanking it away from her? I know this is all stretching, and this thought is more to rationalize the occurrence then provide a concrete solution. also side note, the book states that most of his jewelry are meant to distract from the atium bracers. so there is general jewerly, some feruchemical bracers, and then the atium bracers themselves

Edited December 16, 2014 by Pathfinder

[Patrick Star]

Guys, GUYS!!!

 

Obviously, the only way for the Stormlight Archive books to end is with a surprise Cthulhu attack!

 

I mean, seriously.  Come ON!  All the clues are there!  Crabs, storms, and insane people uncovering sacrificial plots by other insane people!