Syl vs. Pattern

[DanTheSeamonster he/him]

Well, let the community know your opinion!

 

Which Spren do you like the best, and why?

 

I personally am a big Pattern fan. I love his personality and thoughtfulness, and his ability to mimic anyone is quite nifty as well. Also, his questions about human behavior make for some pretty hilarious reactions from Shallan 

Edited December 12, 2014 by KingKiller

[dvoraen]

It is a pattern.

[Moogle]

I love all the spren-human relationships. But yeah, Pattern easily. I can't name a single instance where I've been annoyed with him, whereas I can do plenty for Syl.

[Gamma Fiend he/him]

Well if I had an unrestricted choice I would probably pick Wyndle. XD Although Pattern would be a close second if we were making our choice off of Cosmere Knowledge that can be gained via the interaction with the spren. Pattern has basically been a gold mine for speculation and theorizing, with his concise, specific choice of words. (Which makes me wonder if there is any sort of pattern or code hidden among Pattern's speech/dialogue.), is better overall for a reader because of the information he can drop in the text. We've learned quite a bit from just Pattern alone.....

....But....

Syl is just so fun! She can be frustrating because of her lack of knowledge, and inability to answer sometimes what can be perceived as simple questions -- yet still having a huge impact on the cosmere and general reader-based knowledge. But her answers give just enough insight, I think. She's not supposed to be a treasure trove of information, like more of the other spren who were actually sent to whichever specific people, she has more of a unique, loveable personality.

Scenes with her just leave me smiling, every single time. Pattern is fun and amusing, and fun to read... but Syl is just adorable.

Edited December 12, 2014 by Gamma Fiend

[Oudeis he/him]

I find that I've gotten more attached to Syl. She seems to experience pain and discomfort at times, awkwardness and anger. Pattern's always on an even keel. For the purposes of a story, that's somewhat boring. I sorta don't care, because I've got no reason to. It doesn't seem like anything would faze or upset him. I get the sense that Syl can experience real emotional pain. If something happens that might upset her, that gives me the reader something to be interested about. I don't think we ever see Pattern get more than flustered at something confusingly illogical.

 

I also frankly don't like most of the human/spren relationships so far. The fact that Wyndle flat-out calls Lift "Mistress" bothers me. The human makes all the decisions and orders the spren around. Shallan never once asks Pattern, "Would you mind...?" she just tells him what to do. Syl does a lot for Kaladin, but he asks nicely, if sometimes firmly. They come to mutual decisions. Pattern just does what he's told.

 

I see Pattern as just an aspect of Shallan's character, like a pet. I see Sylphrena as a character in her own right.

[RawToast225 he/him]

I love Syl's energy. She is the only spren we have met that I actually identify with.

[Titan Arum]

I find that I've gotten more attached to Syl. She seems to experience pain and discomfort at times, awkwardness and anger. Pattern's always on an even keel. For the purposes of a story, that's somewhat boring. I sorta don't care, because I've got no reason to. It doesn't seem like anything would faze or upset him. I get the sense that Syl can experience real emotional pain. If something happens that might upset her, that gives me the reader something to be interested about. I don't think we ever see Pattern get more than flustered at something confusingly illogical.

 

I also frankly don't like most of the human/spren relationships so far. The fact that Wyndle flat-out calls Lift "Mistress" bothers me. The human makes all the decisions and orders the spren around. Shallan never once asks Pattern, "Would you mind...?" she just tells him what to do. Syl does a lot for Kaladin, but he asks nicely, if sometimes firmly. They come to mutual decisions. Pattern just does what he's told.

 

I see Pattern as just an aspect of Shallan's character, like a pet. I see Sylphrena as a character in her own right.

I whole-heartedly agree. Syl actually has character and ranges in her emotions, not just negative emotions. As an armchair psychologist, I'd say she's manic depressive, but she's relateable and engaging. Additionally, she actually questions Kal about his actions, and let's him know when she thinks he's making a bad decision. Pattern is monotone and simply does whatever Shallan requests. Granted, his ability to mimic anyone is pretty cool.

 

As a result, I feel connected with Syl whereas Pattern is too two-dimensional and a rather flat character (literally and figuratively in the physical realm!).  

[Mimiddle04]

I sort of view Pattern like the depressed robot from Hitchhikers.  I even read him in sort of an Alan Rickman type voice if you've ever watched the Hitchhiker movie.  But he doesn't have the sarcastic depression to make him funny and charming in a weird "I want to never be you" sort of way.  His character is so one note that I feel it makes him sort of boring.  He does have some good insights into the Cognitive Realm, but that has nothing to do with him as a character.  Any spren that can communicate with humans could have passed along that info.

 

That being said Syl is my choice, but she's not perfect.  She is more fun, both in a literal and a literature sense.  But she too can get extremely annoying when she won't give up on the whole "you have to do the right thing, and the right thing has to be what I think of as right" thing.  I find her sense of protection cute, for example when she tells Kaladin not to worry about the guys who beat him and strung him up because she already tripped one of them three times that day.  Those scenes make me smile to myself in the same way you would if a child told you not to worry because he'll lend you his teddy bear.

 

I guess really my problem with both of them is they're spren.  The whole idea of spren is they represent an idea.  Pattern= lies and Syl= honor.  This means they are always going to be very one sided characters without a good grasp on depth.  So I like Syl's personality better but they both get a little annoying when they can't even comprehend how others might view something.  Even stubborn chull Kaladin realizes he might have been harsh on Adolin at one point.

[The Drunk Monkey he/him]

Pattern all the way!

I don't know why I like him, I just do (possibly because I'd rather be a Lightweaver than a Windrunner tbh)

[navybrandt he/him]

You realize this is like asking me to pick my favorite child - just not possible.

[Slater he/him]

Syl definitely. It's just sweet how much her and Kaladin care about each other. She also doesn't let Kaladin fall into a deeper funk, always willing to call him out on it or try to pull him out herself. That scene in WoK with the leaf? The end of WoR getting him to smile?  Adorable and WAY better then any of the other spren/human relationships so far.

[Newan he/him]

I don't see why people think that Pattern isn't an interesting character.  He honestly believes that Shallan will kill her, and yet he stays with her.  He is slowly regaining conscious thought, so of course he isn't going to be as independent as Syl yet, but there's something about how self-sacrificing Pattern is that makes me fascinated to learn his motivation.  Why is he staying with Shallan even though she almost killed him once, and he is convinced that she will do it again?  

 

I understand people liking Syl more because she is adorable, but to those who say that Pattern doesn't have a strong character, I say: Mmmmmmm, lies.

[Kobold King he/him]

For me the answer is fairly paradoxical. While I generally enjoy Syl's banter more than Pattern's rambling, I'm far more interested in Pattern as a character. He's the only spren thus far that strikes me as actually alien in some respect. His motivations are nigh inscrutable to human beings, yet make some sense in their own way; his fascination with lies forms a backbone to his character and species that I love more than I can quite express. While Syl (and to a lesser extent, Wyndle) have far more human personalities, Pattern is a non-human sapient and his dialogue revels in this fact. I find him fascinating, and I look forward to finding out more about him in future installments.

[Oudeis he/him]

I do agree with you that Pattern has a more interesting foundation, as a being so clearly alien to humans. What sells it for me, though, is the fact that he almost never seems to be at all distressed by anything. And that he's perfectly content to be Shallan's servant. He discusses his own eventual doom with calm equanimity. (Which, again, he's alien so I'm good with that, but then show me some thing about which he DOES care.) We get a very few odd, unrelated and far-between examples of times something upsets him. He freaks out to learn that living things live by eating other living things, then apparently gets over it. He goes a little crazy in the middle of a Highstorm buzzing about Odium, and then hours later behaves like it never happened. One of his most emotional moments happened when he learned that people use a diacritical mark to make other letters sound like an 'h'. He seem alien, which is cool. But I feel no investment in him. Nothing bothers him, so I'm not bothered on his behalf.

 

And it really, really bugs me how he legs Shallan walk all over him. She orders, he obeys. Sylphrena helps Kaladin, on her terms, and makes demands of him in return. Pattern doesn't feel like a character, he seems like a tool in Shallan's belt. I think you're absolutely right; they could do a lot with Pattern. He's alien and they should explore that. They don't.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

In Pattern's defence, he has no oaths to defend unlike Syl. Shallan from the onset jumps onto the "save the world" wagon, so Pattern didn't need to prod her into action like Syl had to do with Kaladin. Lastly, Shallan hardly ever did anything for pure selfish reasons during WoR. All her goals were to learn more about the Desolations and how to prevent it and Pattern was perfectly okay about it. Contrast her with Kaladin who was so caught up with personal grudges that its no wonder Syl had so tough time with him compared to Pattern's time with Shallan.

So I think rather than looking at the spren in isolation, it may be better to assess the Knight-spren relations.

A word about Wyndle. Just because he calls Lift Mistress doesn't mean that he is just her servant. This reminds me of Alfred who called Bruce Master Wayne for as long as I remember but their relation is so much more than that.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Definitely Pattern. Syl is your girl friend who is in an abusive relationship but stays with him because, "he's  good person." Ugh, he more or less killed her but it's ok because he apologized and said some words. 

 

I'm aware that people will take exception to this but don't try to change my opinion. I assure you it will not work, not until at least the 5th book.

 

I also find Patterns reactions to simple things like eating to be both hilarious and kinda relate-able, whereas I find Syl childish and annoying. Much like I find 5 year old girls childish and annoying.

[sanderfan she/her]

In contrast to the above statement (though I'm not trying to change your opinion, I promise, just saying my own) I love Syl more than I love Pattern. Don't get me wrong, Pattern's great and he has his awesome moments, but I just can't connect to him. Perhaps it's because he's so alien, or maybe it's because he doesn't really seem to care. I don't actually know.

 

What I do know is that I care about Syl. Again, I can't exactly identify why, I just know that I do. She knows that Kaladin is depressed, so she does her best to cheer him up, and actually succeeds in making him laugh and smile a couple of times (which I think is a big deal because he almost never smiles genuinely). I think that's amazing of her. She's truly concerned about him and does everything in her power to help him.

 

Though I can see how someone could find that annoying. I know sometimes I really don't want anyone to talk to me, so having a spren who's trying to cheer me up would just make me angrier.

 

But Syl is still my favorite, hands down.

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Did I get down voted because of the "don't try and change my mind" or because I said that Kaladin is more or less an abusive boyfriend? I like knowing these things so that I can endeavour to not offend others in the future.

Sanderfan. Your opinion is your own, I can't state that you can't change my opinion and expect to change yours. I would not want to even if I could, I lack the interest and the motivation.

[Kobold King he/him]

Definitely Pattern. Syl is your girl friend who is in an abusive relationship but stays with him because, "he's  good person." Ugh, he more or less killed her but it's ok because he apologized and said some words. 

 

I'm aware that people will take exception to this but don't try to change my opinion. I assure you it will not work, not until at least the 5th book.

 

I also find Patterns reactions to simple things like eating to be both hilarious and kinda relate-able, whereas I find Syl childish and annoying. Much like I find 5 year old girls childish and annoying.

 

Your interpretation of Kaladin as an abusive boyfriend analogue relies on a few key suppositions:

 

• That Kaladin's killing of Syl was a willful action, in the same vein as a man slapping his girlfriend would be a willful action;
• That in a spren-human relationship there is room for neither repentance nor forgiveness;
• Than an individual is weak for the act of forgiving what was either an accident or a misinformed action.

I will grant that it's been a while since I read WoR, and thus I may be underestimating the level of knowledge Kaladin possessed at this point in the series. If it can be confirmed within the text that Kaladin fully understood that his actions had the ability to kill Syl, than I will grant that you have a point, and would recommend bringing your opinion to a new thread where it can be more thoroughly discussed and analyzed by those smarter than myself.

 

 

Did I get down voted because of the "don't try and change my mind" or because I said that Kaladin is more or less an abusive boyfriend? I like knowing these things so that I can endeavour to not offend others in the future.

 

I did not downvote you, but I'll confess to have come close to doing so. Here's why.

 

By stating from the beginning of the conversation that your opinion can not be changed by any means, it felt to me like you'd expressed a level of disdain and contempt towards those of differing opinions. It is one thing to state an opinion; it is another to offhandedly dismiss all differing ideas. Possessing a learned opinion is a sign of intelligence; dismissing your opinion's counters before even hearing them has a whiff of arrogance about it.

 

And lest I sound like a hypocrite--everything I've written thus far was typed in a spirit of humility and meekness. Every word I hammered out may be completely wrong on every level; if so, all I can do is apologize and endeavor to do better in the future.

 

Mutually beneficial conversation is my only goal.

[Oudeis he/him]

Also, if you're going to state your opinion and let us know you won't listen to us, why did you bother saying it in public, anyway? If you're unwilling to discuss it, then don't. Just say it aloud in your room. It's a little rude to say, "I'm going to say this, and unless you agree with me, don't bother responding."

[sanderfan she/her]

Smurf, I just want to say I didn't downvote you, I promise. I actually fixed it for you because you shouldn't get a downvote because your opinion is different. I also don't think you were being rude or anything in your post. It's no use derailing a thread trying to change someone's opinion. Hope there's no hard feelings. 

[SmurfAquamarineBodies he/him]

Your interpretation of Kaladin as an abusive boyfriend analogue relies on a few key suppositions:

 

• That Kaladin's killing of Syl was a willful action, in the same vein as a man slapping his girlfriend would be a willful action;
• That in a spren-human relationship there is room for neither repentance nor forgiveness;
• Than an individual is weak for the act of forgiving what was either an accident or a misinformed action.

I will grant that it's been a while since I read WoR, and thus I may be underestimating the level of knowledge Kaladin possessed at this point in the series. If it can be confirmed within the text that Kaladin fully understood that his actions had the ability to kill Syl, than I will grant that you have a point, and would recommend bringing your opinion to a new thread where it can be more thoroughly discussed and analyzed by those smarter than myself.

 

 

 

I did not downvote you, but I'll confess to have come close to doing so. Here's why.

 

By stating from the beginning of the conversation that your opinion can not be changed by any means, it felt to me like you'd expressed a level of disdain and contempt towards those of differing opinions. It is one thing to state an opinion; it is another to offhandedly dismiss all differing ideas. Possessing a learned opinion is a sign of intelligence; dismissing your opinion's counters before even hearing them has a whiff of arrogance about it.

 

And lest I sound like a hypocrite--everything I've written thus far was typed in a spirit of humility and meekness. Every word I hammered out may be completely wrong on every level; if so, all I can do is apologize and endeavor to do better in the future.

 

Mutually beneficial conversation is my only goal.

 

Yes. Arrogance has been a common complaint laid against me, and I suppose to an extent they are correct. Once discussions get heated I tend to ignore the person talking as I have no interest in arguing. This isn't arrogance more a product of my upbringing where any argument was met with swift and physical responses, I tell you this not to gain sympathy, because honestly I care very little for it, but so that you peoples can perhaps understand that I was not telling you your opinion was unimportant but that I couldn't care less what your opinions are. If they align with mine brilliant, if not, that is also brilliant. Just don't try to sway me, I will think an argument is starting and cease to respond. I would only respond if I happen to see it whilst drunk but I no longer drink so that is not likely to happen.

 

Smurf, I just want to say I didn't downvote you, I promise. I actually fixed it for you because you shouldn't get a downvote because your opinion is different. I also don't think you were being rude or anything in your post. It's no use derailing a thread trying to change someone's opinion. Hope there's no hard feelings. 

 

I don't care who downvoted me. I just want to know why so that i can change my speaking pattern as to avoid an hint of confrontation. Apparently appearing arrogant will cause others to react negatively so I will try not to sound that way. You can be assured there is very little you can do to cause hard feelings. I have not the interest or the motivation to maintain them.

 

I shall not continue derailing this thread anymore but contribute to it by stating Pattern FTW.