What ability would you have?

[Moogle]

I agree partially. Like I said, you have to be a certain sort of person to attract the spren in the same place. Kaladin was protecting people in the army, so he attracted Syl.

 

I do not agree that what Syl was doing was "showing [Kaladin] who he really is". Without Syl, I do not think Kaladin would have ever gotten over his hatred of lighteyes to the point where he'd protect the king. I don't think there was some ideal-Kaladin that Syl uncovered. He was definitely an eyecolorist(?). I definitely think she was manipulating him there. I'm not making a value judgement on whether or not I agree with Syl doing that, I'm just saying that I think she has worked to change Kaladin's character.

 

I also have issues with the idea of Syl not "forcing" him. Syl literally screams in agony forever if Kaladin breaks his oaths now. That makes me uncomfortable. She might not be forcing him to act well... but he isn't free to act how he wishes now, because if he does Syl will die, and he doesn't want that. People change - what if Kaladin no longer burns to protect people in fifty years, what if he feels the law is all-important and he would fit in the Skybreakers? Does he just force himself slavishly to act like a Windrunner to keep Syl alive? Does he commit suicide?

 

It's a dark side to Surgebinding to me, and the primary reason why I wouldn't want to be a Surgebinder. (He's also addicted to Stormlight, and if he doesn't act like a Windrunner, he gets cut off from it. There's a bunch of little things like that, and I honestly appreciate Brandon as a writer for adding a few negatives to his magic systems, much like Awakening requires you to take some of people's souls.)

Edited January 15, 2015 by Moogle

[Pestis the Spider she/her]

I do not agree that what Syl was doing was "showing [Kaladin] who he really is". Without Syl, I do not think Kaladin would have ever gotten over his hatred of lighteyes. I don't think there was some unapproachable ideal-Kaladin that Syl uncovered. I definitely think she was manipulating him there. I'm not making a value judgement on whether or not I agree with Syl doing that, I'm just saying that I think she has worked to change Kaladin's character.

Ok, the problem may be that I am very idealistic person and a perfectionist, so I may have a little weird opinions on this one. : D

Well, I simply think that everyone have some good traits and some bad traits. What Syl did, at least in my opinion, was to bring the Kaladin’s good traits of character to light. I think she's just uncovering Kaladin's hidden potential, and I think there is an ideal-Kaladin somewhere deep inside "our" Kaladin. Bah, I think that everyone have ideal version of themselves inside, just waiting to be uncovered.  

 

I agree that Syl somehow manipulated Kaladin to alter his character, but she did not change him into someone he never was or was never able to be. It's not like he was born with hatred towards lighteyes. And I think he still really isn't fond of them. He just started to be less prejudiced towards them, realising that they are also people of different characters. 

 

 

I also have issues with the idea of Syl not "forcing" him. Syl literally screams in agony forever if Kaladin breaks his oaths now.

Well, it's not like she's doing it intentionally, just to force Kaladin to do as she likes. I think that breaking of oaths actually hurts her, so I think she has every right to scream in agony. 

 

 

 he isn't free to act how he wishes now, because if he does Syl will die, and he doesn't want that. People change - what if Kaladin no longer burns to protect people in fifty years, what if he feels the law is all-important and he would fit in the Skybreakers? Does he just force himself slavishly to act like a Windrunner to keep Syl alive? Does he commit suicide?

He is perfectly free to do act as he wishes. Of course, he has to deal with consequences, like Syl dying. When old KRs changed their minds suddenly, they just went off and killed their spren, did they not? But I think that if he would truly suddenly start to think as a Skybreaker, Syl would be long dead before that happens. In WoR Syl practically dies for a moment, even though Kaladin actually just struggles with his beliefs, constantly changing his mind one way or another. And because KR oaths are made between KR, KR's conscience and KR's spren, then I think that "forcing himself to act as a Windrunner" would kill Syl just as simply acting straight as a Skybreaker. I mean I know the oats ate actually "I will protect people" and protecting people against your conscience and will is also "protecting them" so in theory it still fulfils the oath, but I don't think it works this way. Let's remember that Kaladin's oaths did not break when he physically did something against them, but when he was particularly overweening and just thinking against the oaths. So I really think that the mental state is important. Also Stormfather says several times "that oath is accepted". Do you think he would accept Kaladin's 3rd oath even if Kaladin would protect the king just to get Syl back, and not to actually save the king's life? Because I think not.

Edited January 15, 2015 by Pestis the Spider

[Arondell]

I also have issues with the idea of Syl not "forcing" him. Syl literally screams in agony forever if Kaladin breaks his oaths now. That makes me uncomfortable. She might not be forcing him to act well... but he isn't free to act how he wishes now, because if he does Syl will die, and he doesn't want that. People change - what if Kaladin no longer burns to protect people in fifty years, what if he feels the law is all-important and he would fit in the Skybreakers? Does he just force himself slavishly to act like a Windrunner to keep Syl alive? Does he commit suicide?

 

 

 

Syl "forces" Kaladin in the same way a good friend or family member does.  She advises and encourages.  I believe there are several things she does not tell Kaladin because it could be considered temptation or coercion.  For example she explicitly declines to tell Kaladin the origin of shard blades.  This could be viewed as temptation and she doesn't want Kaladin to make choices because of a desire for power.  She also doesn't tell him not to make opposing promises because it can damage the bond and potentially kill her.  Telling him could be considered a form of coercion and she doesn't want him making choices based on that.

 

The only thing I can, maybe, feel uncomfortable about is perhaps the situation.  As with everyone in imperfect situations she can either never try or she can work with the tools available to her and hope for the best. 

[Moogle]

...

 

Syl "forces" Kaladin in the same way a good friend or family member does.  She advises and encourages.

 

I understand your points of view, but I still don't feel the way you two do.

 

Syl will literally be forced into screaming agony for eternity if Kaladin breaks his oaths. Imagine you had a girlfriend/boyfriend, but if you wanted to break up with them, they would commit suicide if you did because they have a mental condition which makes them depressed easily or something.

 

Kaladin is free to act and accept the consequences... but this is clearly not the same situation as we might have with a family member encouraging us. Most people would strongly hesitate to break up with their SO in such a situation. Kaladin is being coerced into acting like a proper Windrunner.

 

I'm not blaming Syl. She's not doing this maliciously. (Though she fully knew this would happen when she left Shadesmar to seek out a bondee, as far as I can tell she had good intentions.) Kaladin does not regret matters, or feel trapped, so my concerns are more in a general sense.

 

Syl didn't even tell Kaladin this - which I suppose could be a good thing, as Arondell says. Only, now that she nearly died because he failed to act as a Windrunner, he's aware that can happen, so the coercion is there, even if Syl is not outrighting saying it.

 

I remain uncomfortable with the situation. I don't think there's much more I can say on the topic, and I don't think I can be convinced otherwise. Thank you both for the conversation. (Also, if anyone wants to continue this, they should start a new thread. This one is getting off-topic. My fault. Sorry.)

Edited January 16, 2015 by Moogle

[Shadow Guardian he/him]

Based on my temperament and what we know of the orders, I think I would likely end up being a windrunner most likely, which I would be totally OK with.

 

Conveniently, being a windrunner is also what would appeal to me most based on what we know of the the current "ability" pool, though I reserve the right to prefer or want a different ability in future, even if I don't think it's abilities I necessarily "would" have per se.