Breath and Stormlight (General Cosmere Topic)

[Mimiddle04]

Cosmere Spoilers follow but mostly about Stormlight Archives and Warbreaker

 

I had a question involving Zahel/Vasher and his use of Stormlight.  It is really a general topic question rather than a specific one.  Here is the best way I can phrase what I'm trying to ask:

 

If Vasher is substituting Stormlight for Breath, how much Stormlight can he store?  

 

Some Thoughts I've had and others I'm trying to get answers to:

 

1. Warbreaker places no limit on the amount of Breath you can store.
   • Does his body convert Stormlight to Breath?
   • Does it keep it as Stormlight and run off Stormlight instead of Breath?
   • In either form, can he store it like he stores Breath?
2. Does he glow all the time if it is in Stormlight form?
3. Can he store it for an indefinite amount of time like it is breath?
   • If he can Store an infinite amount and for an indefinite amount of time, is he essentially a giant reserve of Stormlight?

I know in WoB he has RFAO'd some of the questions about how different investitures work on different worlds.  And in others he said they're Peter questions but might not answer even if he knew.  If these questions don't have definitive answers I'm up for some open discussion as well.

 

PS.  The closest thing I found in the forums was a discussion on the conversion rate of different investitures.  I'm not asking for the ratio, but more of a practical use in how Zahel/Vasher is using Stormlight and the implications of him using Stormlight in a similar way to Breath.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Mimiddle04
Removed unnecessary spoiler and moved topic.

[Moogle]

We don't have WoBs on any of your questions as far as I know (maybe there's some in the new batch coming out?). Here's some speculation that I find reasonable:

 

1. His body does not convert Stormlight to Breath as far as we know. It seems more that he's using Stormlight to power himself. A combustion engine might run on vegetable oil, or it can run on gasoline, but that doesn't mean gasoline is converted to vegetable oil. Similarly, Breath can power Allomancy (by WoB), but that doesn't mean Breath will turn into mist or metals.

 

We have no idea if he "keeps" it as Stormlight and runs off of that. I find it unlikely, as Stormlight leaks from you quite quickly, and nothing we know of indicates it can be stored indefinitely by Returned. I think it's more that he takes in some Stormlight, and then instantly 'eats' it to live for another week.

 

2. He and Hoid, who both presumably have a fair bit of Breath, do not noticeably glow on Roshar due to their Breath. I have no clue why, though I've speculated burning copper might be responsible for Hoid's (or his color aura is just too subtle), and Vasher might have given away all his Breath except for his Divine Breath before he left Nalthis.

 

If Vasher found a way to take in Stormlight, I imagine he'd glow while it leaked from him. Again, same as Kaladin. I don't think he can just breathe it in, though, unless he finds some way to get a spren bond.

 

3. As I said before, I doubt it. Stormlight in general seems less 'sticky', than Breath. It leaks from gems, it leaks from you, etc. I don't see why a Returned would be any different and be able to store it indefinitely. That's more a property of Breath itself.

[High prince of geeks]

I think that he doesn't need to have starlight in him all the time as long as he his divine breath and a boost of investure every week he'd be fine, just like taking in a breath every weeks

[Mimiddle04]

I believe if he's using it he found a way to take it in.  But if he uses it instantly and doesn't take any more in that would explain why he doesn't glow.  

 

If he can't store, any idea what he does during a weeping?  Maybe he has some Breaths he can use when Stormlight isn't available, or do the gemstones last long enough he could get by using the light from them?

[Moogle]

If he can't store, any idea what he does during a weeping?  Maybe he has some Breaths he can use when Stormlight isn't available, or do the gemstones last long enough he could get by using the light from them?

 

I wondered the same thing for a long time. I get the feeling there might be a WoB on it, but I can't find it. As I recall, though, larger gems (gemhearts for example) don't go dun for quite some time and can last through the Weeping. Vasher may also be able to have some control over when he 'eats', and might be able to eat just before gemstones run out during the Weeping, or he might be able to over-eat. (We discussed a lot of this in this thread, though more towards the end. To summarize: I have no clue how Vasher's Breath consumption works.)

 

The Weeping lasts four weeks, which is twenty Rosharan days. It might be that is less time than you were thinking.

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Its also possible that his nature as a returned is similar in some way to a radiant in terms of special properties in his body. We already know that the returned can learn to mold their bodies and even suppress some of the aura of their divine Breath, it would not surprise me if there Soul web "Leaks Less" as part of their nature or that they can darken their eyes enough that the lightning from storm light balances out.

[Mimiddle04]

I wondered the same thing for a long time. I get the feeling there might be a WoB on it, but I can't find it. As I recall, though, larger gems (gemhearts for example) don't go dun for quite some time and can last through the Weeping.

 

The Weeping lasts four weeks, which is twenty Rosharan days. It might be that is less time than you were thinking.

 

 

I wasn't sure exactly how long they last, but I knew most gems went done before it was over.  My concern would be (if Rosharan and Nalthis days are roughly the same length) Zahel would have to "eat" just before the weeping began and twice more while they were happening.  So as an ardent would he be able to get his hands on some gemstones large enough to still have light for him to use up after 16 days?  Does a normal chip or broam last that long?

Edited November 25, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Mimiddle04]

We already know that the returned can learn to mold their bodies and even suppress some of the aura of their divine Breath, it would not surprise me if there Soul web "Leaks Less" as part of their nature...

 

So maybe his Returned body can store Stormlight similarly to how he stores Breath.  If, as you propose, he uses his Returned abilities to keep from glowing or lightening his eyes it'd be easy for him to keep people from noticing him doing it.

 

EDIT: Something I just thought of, maybe he uses his abilities to put Breath into other things to put Stormlight into things and he retrieves it at a later time.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Lord Tavash Shar]

Something I just thought of, maybe he uses his abilities to put Breath into other things to put Stormlight into things and he retrieves it at a later time.

 

I like this idea though I think its less likely as so far we have only seen stormlight in gems and living beings. Even breaths "Stick Better" when the awakener targets a human form. 

Here some literal food for thought. Could eating storm light infused plants & animals passively infuse him?

Edited November 25, 2014 by Lord Tavash Shar

[Moogle]

I wasn't sure exactly how long they last, but I knew most gems went done before it was over.  My concern would be (if Rosharan and Nalthis days are roughly the same length) Zahel would have to "eat" just before the weeping began and twice more while they were happening.  So as an ardent would he be able to get his hands on some gemstones large enough to still have light for him to use up after 16 days?  Does a normal chip or broam last that long?

 

I can't imagine a normal chip or broam lasts that long, but I'm not sure.

 

I imagine ardents are some of the best people to have easy access to large gemstones. They're the ones with Soulcasters, after all, which means they are the ones using gemhearts to create food, clean latrines, make buildings, etc.

 

As to the Awakening idea, I don't think Stormlight would create permanent Awakenings like that. When Kaladin lashes something, it leaks Stormlight. Awakened objects don't leak Breath, though, so it seems more like a property of Breath/Stormlight as opposed to a property of the magic system. (Does this mean Breath can create permanent Lashings? Hmm...)

Edited November 25, 2014 by Moogle

[WeiryWriter]

It's mentioned that spheres do not last through the Weeping, they are far too small.  They are only thumbnail-sized (I think), most of which is glass.  All it says is that the gem has to be larger, though it does not specify the exact size.

[Incheoul]

One of the honor blades is missing from Shinovar right? Maybe zahel is in possession of the honor blades and is how he breathes in stormlight.

[Moogle]

One of the honor blades is missing from Shinovar right? Maybe zahel is in possession of the honor blades and is how he breathes in stormlight.

 

Taravangian was lying when he told Szeth that one was stolen from Shinovar.

[Incheoul]

Where does it say that he was lying? Either which way, there is at least one honor blade unaccounted for.

[WeiryWriter]

It's not explicitly stated in text, but it is heavily implied.  Taravangian is terrified out of his mind and trying desperately not to lose control of Szeth.  He knows that there are Radiants out there, but if Szeth were to find that out Taravangian would lose a very valuable tool.  Basically it's too convenient of an excuse to actually be legitimate (though some disagree).

 

7 Blades are with the Shin

1 Blade was with Taln

1 Blade was with Szeth and is now with Team Radiant in Urithiru

1 Blade was retrieved by a Herald

 

Did you mean Taln's blade is unaccounted for?

[Incheoul]

It's not explicitly stated in text, but it is heavily implied.  Taravangian is terrified out of his mind and trying desperately not to lose control of Szeth.  He knows that there are Radiants out there, but if Szeth were to find that out Taravangian would lose a very valuable tool.  Basically it's too convenient of an excuse to actually be legitimate (though some disagree).

 

7 Blades are with the Shin

1 Blade was with Taln

1 Blade was with Szeth and is now with Team Radiant in Urithiru

1 Blade was retrieved by a Herald

 

Did you mean Taln's blade is unaccounted for?

 

I was thinking of Taln's blade since the shardblade retrieved was a regular one and of the blade retrieved by the Herald. Taln's blade wouldn't fit timewise with Zahel arriving on Roshar and the blade retrieved by the Herald is probably in possession by Nin but who knows.

 

Didn't the Parshendi have a blade they left in Alethkar?  Which blade was this?

[WeiryWriter]

I was thinking of Taln's blade since the shardblade retrieved was a regular one and of the blade retrieved by the Herald. Taln's blade wouldn't fit timewise with Zahel arriving on Roshar and the blade retrieved by the Herald is probably in possession by Nin but who knows.

 

Didn't the Parshendi have a blade they left in Alethkar?  Which blade was this?

 

It was Szeth's.

[Incheoul]

Oh I always thought Szeth got his blade from the stone shamans.

[Gamma Fiend]

I know you weren't specifically mentioning the Breath to Stormlight Ratio, but I do have a copy of WoK ordered from Brandon's site asking the question of the ratio. Let's hope when it comes that it didn't get RAFO'd!

[Mimiddle04]

I know you weren't specifically mentioning the Breath to Stormlight Ratio, but I do have a copy of WoK ordered from Brandon's site asking the question of the ratio. Let's hope when it comes that it didn't get RAFO'd!

 

That'd be cool.  It would help give us an idea of how exactly other investitures power each other.  

 

If a Returned were to use Breath to power a surgebinding would the surgebinding use stormlight and spren like it normally does on Roshar or would it be bound with Breath?  If it were bound with breath would it run out the same way Stormlight does or does it stay until you retrieve it like Breath?  Same goes in the reverse thinking, if you used Stormlight to power an Awakening would it work like Stormlight or like Breath?  Or for any two forms you're using to power the wrong form of magic (in this sense wrong just means something it wasn't meant for).

 

EDIT: This is almost the same as my original thought but in a broader sense than just how Zahel uses Stormlight.  Is there another thread this has already been discussed on?  I've read over some but didn't see it specifically mentioned.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[WeiryWriter]

Oh I always thought Szeth got his blade from the stone shamans.

 

He did.  I did not mean to imply otherwise.  All I was saying is the Parshendi had under their control an Honorblade via Szeth and his Oathstone, which they promptly abandoned in the Alethi countryside.

[Blaze1616]

To chime in here, one idea that occured to me was that Vasher came to Roshar with a large quantity of Breath in tow, not just his Divine Breath. He then stored this breath in mundane objects to not have the conspicuous color changing aura. He is not attempting to Awaken anything, but is rather merely storing the breath to be retrieved later. Given he has his own personal quarters, he can manipulate his storage in privacy. This would more easily explain how he survives through a Weeping. If he came over with, say, 1000 Breaths (approx. 4th heightening without a Divine Breath), that would last him 500 years if he was forced to consume two during each Weeping, which is a conservative guesstimate because the gems he has access to as an ardent might be large enough to hold the Stormlight for the three weeks, rather than just the two. This would also provide Vasher with a safety net in the event he ever finds himself without Stormlight during his "feeding time," as he could place some Breath within his clothing.

[Moogle]

If a Returned were to use Breath to power a surgebinding would the surgebinding use stormlight and spren like it normally does on Roshar or would it be bound with Breath?  If it were bound with breath would it run out the same way Stormlight does or does it stay until you retrieve it like Breath?  Same goes in the reverse thinking, if you used Stormlight to power an Awakening would it work like Stormlight or like Breath?  Or for any two forms you're using to power the wrong form of magic (in this sense wrong just means something it wasn't meant for).

 

It's been discussed and we have very little to go on, unfortunately. Most everything is speculation.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you wonder if the Surgebinding would use "Stormlight and spren", though. Surgebinding doesn't need spren, as the Honorblades show, but you still couldn't use Breath to power Surgebinding unless you were capable of Surgebinding normally, be it via spren or Honorblade.

 

I've also been rather outspoken on the idea that you cant convert Investiture from one type to another. I don't believe it makes sense to be able to do it, and there's evidence against, like being unable to Soulcast lerasium.

 

Kurkistan's school of thought is that Breath generates some "free" energy you can use without depleting the Breath itself, just like you get interest from money you have in a bank account. Under this model, using Surgebinding actually uses way more than just the interest you're collecting, which will deplete the Breath itself if it's used to power it. (We recently had a discussion on it here, towards the end.)

 

I've got a different model, which is not necessarily incompatible: Breath acts exactly like Stormlight, with the exception that Breath is owned rather than borrowed. Thus, when it's used, it returns to the user, meaning they will never run out of Breath. Awakening an object sets the ownership flag of the Breath to the object, so the object in turn gets to constantly use Breath. This would explain why Breath seems to offer nigh-infinite power when Stormlight and the like does not. This would predict that a Lashing done via Breath would last forever, as the Breath would just return to the object even as it was consumed to power the Lashing. Although, you can extend the model, and still say that Breath, if used "forcefully", ejects the Breath from you so hard that it won't return, in an analogy to escape velocity. Then the Breath would run out in a Lashing. This covers Kurk's interest rate ideas quite well.

 

There's notable issues in my idea, like what happens when Nightblood eats Breath or a Returned does the same thing. I'm sort of comfortable just saying "the Breaths are corrupted and their ownership property gets deleted", but the theory has issues. This was all discussed in the previous link.

 

I think there's going to be some advantages due to how "sticky" Breath is, though. Stormlight leaks from any object you Lash, but Breath does not do this. Breath might be more efficient in that sense, even if the actual Lashing consumes the Breath.

[Mimiddle04]

I'm not quite sure what you mean when you wonder if the Surgebinding would use "Stormlight and spren", though. Surgebinding doesn't need spren...

 

When they are testing how much storm light it takes to do things in the chasms Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall and Rock says something along the lines of "there are spren holding it there." So my understanding was that Stormlight powers it but spren actually perform the action of gravity.  I might have been wrong.  

 

Also basically all my questions here stem from this WoB:

 

"Q:  Can Breath be used to power Surgebinding?

A:  They are very similar Investitures, and most of the magics can be powered with the other magics if you are capable of making that happen."

 

I took that to mean Vasher, if he figured out how, could create surgebindings using Breath.  I see what you're saying though and that actually makes more sense and explains a lot of the questions I had.  When he says "if you're capable of making that happen" he meant if you're already a surgebinder you could get Breath and use it to power your surgebinding not that if you you were a surgebinder that had Breath you'd suddenly be capable of awakening things.  That clears so much up.

 

"Q:  What would happen to the Breath?

A:  The Breath would be consumed in the same way that Stormlight is.  A renewing resource, much like Atium is."

 

I had forgotten this part.  That answers my question about what would happen if you used Breath to power a surge.  In direct language I have an answer ha.  My bad.  

 

I should have joined this site sooner, it helps so much to have other people's views directly responding to your questions.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Mimiddle04

[Moogle]

When they are testing how much storm light it takes to do things in the chasms Kaladin sticks a rock to the wall and Rock says something along the lines of "there are spren holding it there." So my understanding was that Stormlight powers it but spren actually perform the action of gravity.  I might have been wrong. 

 

I don't think this is how it works, but we don't know for sure. Soulcasting doesn't seem to require spren in that way, nor does a Basic Lashing, nor does Regrowth. The only example we have of things being like that is a Full Lashing, which uses Adhesion. I think it would make more sense if Adhesion just attracted bindspren like an angry person attracts an angerspren.