June 30th - Yados - The Mortal Coil (v2) - Chapter 1 (L,V)

[Yados]

Most of you probably remember my first pass at this story, but then there are also some new faces around this last week.

For those who aren't familiar with the premise, it's low fantasy, possibly YA, and it's about a world where humans only started to die of natural causes about seven hundred years ago following a huge shift in the ecology and magic of the world. The main character, Coil, lives on the outskirts of one of the last Kingdoms of Men left in the known world, still standing because it's watched over by three gods.

The main character is gay, though that doesn't really factor into this bit except at the end. There's certainly no sexual content. Even though it's YA, I think I dropped two f-bombs in here. I usually do that and edit it out later. This is a much rougher draft than things I usually write

For those of you who read my other take, rest assured that this is about as different an opening as could be. I really wanted to open with tension and conflict which the other version, sadly, lacked.

You'll have to tell me if you think I succeeded in that.

Like I said, this is rougher than most things I submit here. There are typos and possibly a sentence or two that hasn't been finished. Let's keep this round of critiques to storytelling, tension, character, scene, etc. I'm trying to be more "macro". Going over a passage endlessly just means you've wasted time when you cut out half of it the next week to incorporate new things.

[JamesW he/him]

I like the premise, and was very immersed until the second page, "chained forest" was a bit of a block. I had to stop and make sure I didn't miss anything, then was trying to find if something was mentioned in the next paragraph. It might be that I'm just reading it strangely and it makes perfect sense in context, or it will make sense later. But content, not typos right.

Other then that disconnect (And a single word missing, right as the arrow fire begins) the premise was set up very well. There was a good feel for the setting, and the aspirations of Coil trying to enter into the Watch. I thought the sequence with Coil learning that he could have just challenged Boar to be quite funny.

Some other thoughts/suggestions. Perhaps introduce earlier the reason he wants to join the Watch, or hint that there is a good reason for him about to enter into an arena and get beaten to a pulp. Maybe somewhere in the dialogue the comment could be made about how this was a dumb idea, but that his friend understood why he was doing this.

I didn't get a feel for the setting, just that he was about to fight for a place in the Watch. You mentioned in the note about this place being one of the last kingdoms of men, maybe some feel for that could be introduced? It didn't feel like I was very attached to the scenario, that it was somewhere cold but could have easily been tribal battles, or a rite of passage into adulthood or some other setting.

The fight scene was done very well, I liked the realism, that someone with no experience couldn't stand up to someone who is much more experienced. And the disorientation experienced by a person getting beaten up was quite realistic.

Irna seemed to have a bit drawn out dialogue while she was beating up on Coil. It sounded like a thought he could have had, that this was his fate brought on himself. Maybe if her sentence was broken up by blows, maybe light taunting hits meant to humiliate and make Coil realize just how big of a mistake he has made would fit her personality.

I liked the switch, instead of "He closed his eyes and called on some well of unknown magical power, stunning her and blasting her back" which is what I was expecting, opening his eyes and seeing arrows was excellent. It was almost like I was expecting the 'Hero draws on wells of power under stress' trope, which I don't have issue with because it can be done really well, but I was expecting trope and got the reaction of "Hey, that's just life favoring this character."

Also, if you're aiming for a YA audience, and this is the first chapter, the tension, story and all work great, except for one part, and that was describing Irna. If this is young adult, some parents might read this and want to recommend this to their kid, or read the first chapter to test for content and see if it works. I know some parents who would, upon seeing the description of the female as topless would close the book or not recommend it. The other side of that is that the sex appeal of that is innocuous enough that some might overlook it, and some younger readers might go "Hey read this, there's a topless chick in the first chapter". Maybe that could be changed/moved to later, if it's part of the culture maybe introduce it later in the book, or if its necessary for the fight scene keep it, but "topless" could be "Both wore only a pair of loose fitting trousers, leaving their arms unlimbered." It conveys the same meaning, and uses more words, but doesn't carry the same connotations as "topless does"

Those are my initial thoughts and I might have more later, if/when I do I'll post them up.

James

[Mandamon he/him]

You say there's no sexual content, but I sort of agree with James on this one. While nothing is overt so far, I think this would definitely be ranging to the upper YA area with a first chapter topless reference, and with the obvious relationship between Coil and Hael. That part sort of felt forced to me. Maybe it's just that they're already on the "L" word in the first chapter, rather than developing their relationship. YA is all about relationships growing, not about ones that are already formed. If Coil and Hael are already together, where do they have to go in a relationship except toward the sexual? Ok--you can have them grow as people, but that misses out on the "falling for someone", which I always find is the best part. In the YA I've read, even if two characters know they're going to get together, the plot is still about them finding out how to have a relationship.

As to the macro/story part, I liked it. Setup, tension, characters, and dialogue were all good. It feels like you took time to plot things out well.

Some more nitpicky things:

The setting was a little light. I wasn't sure where the characters were in the circle vs. where the attack was coming from. There's a wall, there's a village (that they've all lived in their whole life, I gather), but is the wall right there, in case arrows coming is a BIG threat, or is the village a little ways off and the wall can hold things off for a while?

I also felt your early hook contradicted the later story. Coil was going to fight a girl, then you turn it around and the girl is a nutso who's going to knock his teeth in. Great, except he knew this person as a little girl? Everyone else knows she's psycho? Most of these people seem to come from the same place in childhood, so how dense is he? Usually girls like that have a reputation that precedes them. This ties back in with the setting. If I know how far the Watch is from where people live, it becomes more reasonable for him not to know about Irna, and for him not to even know how to make a fist, when these people obviously have some pretty real threats facing them on a daily basis.

[Jack the Halls he/him]

- I like that you open with a dreary scene and then do a couple switches right in a row by a) having him fight a girl, and then having the girl be a bad chull. First I think, based on the world "girl" that he doesn't want to fight her because of a Rand al'Thor type reason, but then we see that he doesn't want to fight her because she will destroy him. Nice.

- Another good touch was having him make a fist the wrong way. However, this begs the questions, what kind of Watch is this that just lets in anyone who fights one of its members? By the end of the chapter, you make it clear that they don't even have to win. There is no training program? I think it would be much more believable if you had to work your way up to the fight.

- I don't like the blow-by-blow nature of the fight. The first part, where his fist hits him when he tries to block, is great, but after that... I imagine she would basically destroy him before he even knew what had happened. And he definitely wouldn't feel each individual pain as it happened. In fact, I imagine he'd be down and out cold after the second blow, if Irna is really as good as is implied.

- Why does she help him up? She's showing off up until she kicks his chull. Based on that, I figure she would have just walked back to the other watchmen, getting high-fives as she went. He certainly didn't do anything in the fight that would have gained her respect, unless not backing down counts (and I don't think it would with her, from the little I know of her). I don't know. It doesn't feel true to her character.

- The arrow was surprising, but then it gets confusing. Are they just standing around where arrows might fall randomly? Why are there only two arrows? It all becomes quite muddy here and I don't know what is actually happening. What are the other guardsmen actually doing? Perhaps you meant to do this, to keep it muddy because Coil's mind is muddy (like the guy in white) but... I don't know. Where did the arrow come from? What is this wall? How did he get into the Watch if he lost? Confusion abound.

- Another thing was him recognizing Irna. What? Why didn't he recognize her sooner?

- I didn't get a feel for the setting either. Basically, I was picturing Castle Black, but I'm not sure if that's what you were going for, or if it just came across that way.

- Why wouldn't Hael tell Coil about how Boar will take a fall?

[Yados]

Also, if you're aiming for a YA audience, and this is the first chapter, the tension, story and all work great, except for one part, and that was describing Irna. If this is young adult, some parents might read this and want to recommend this to their kid, or read the first chapter to test for content and see if it works. I know some parents who would, upon seeing the description of the female as topless would close the book or not recommend it. The other side of that is that the sex appeal of that is innocuous enough that some might overlook it, and some younger readers might go "Hey read this, there's a topless chick in the first chapter". Maybe that could be changed/moved to later, if it's part of the culture maybe introduce it later in the book, or if its necessary for the fight scene keep it, but "topless" could be "Both wore only a pair of loose fitting trousers, leaving their arms unlimbered." It conveys the same meaning, and uses more words, but doesn't carry the same connotations as "topless does"

I don't usually argue points on these threads, but I want to point out that I never use the word "topless". I'm not sure why it's in quotations in your post, but I can assure you that you're not quoting it from what I submitted *does quick ctrl+F search to make certain*

I believe I wrote that Irna "stood naked above the waist" and then went straight into describing the "lean, ropey muscles in her arms".

I did that pretty consciously because I didn't want to sexualize her. It seems that, at least with you, I failed. However I have to wonder what I could do here to fix that because, even when I'm basically incorporating your advice here--short sentence about state of dress and then right to arm descriptions--it still sets off a flag.

I'm going to do a more detailed response on other points.

However, in light of Jack's observations, I think I'm going to set this on the wall itself, adding an actual setting and making it more feasible for enemy scouts to shoot arrows. It'll also add a sense of movement to the chapter because I assume Irna will fall off the wall, pulling Coil with her.

Oh, maybe they're on the wrong side then. That would actually force some interesting stuff with the culture's taboos.

Going to have to adjust my outline.

[JamesW he/him]

Yeah, sorry for putting topless in quotes, I think I read through it and mistakenly had the incorrect phrasing in my mind, so sorry about that.

I see that you weren't trying to sexualize her in the fight scene, and I support that, It just threw up a warning flag for the YA tag is all. If it were targeted towards a slightly older audience (Maybe I'm misappropriating the YA tag to be younger then expected) then this scene would work perfectly and the scene wouldn't have even sparked a bit of concern.

I'm not sure how I would go about changing the scene because it feels like no matter how you spin it, most readers would find a woman fighting topless in the first chapter and it would throw up red flags for them.

Unless you shifted the description and maybe neglected to mention how she was dressed? Maybe the main character sees people all dressed this way so it wouldn't be something they would notice, but because he is about to get beaten to a pulp he'll notice her muscles in her arms, or maybe callouses on her knuckles, evidence of a long history as a feared brawler.

Perhaps a shift away from the clothing, If women fighting topless is common here, or if it is just customary, maybe he gives a nod to them being dressed according to tradition, "Both stepped into the ring, armed with naught but their fists and the traditional black trousers of the Watch." Something like that might give a nod to their attire while avoiding explicitly describing her. Maybe "His eyes were drawn, not to her figure, but to the callouses on her knuckles, and the lean, ropey muscles in her arms" That might also provide a bit of preparation for the fact that he is a gay protagonist later in the chapter, and make the scene between him and the other boy a bit less forced, as one of the other commenters mentioned.

James

[Jack the Halls he/him]

I posted this on accident in James' thread somehow. Oops!

Personally, I don't think the naked above the waste thing is a big deal. You're writing YA, not Middle-Grade. Let's face it. If a YA reader's mommy is still making sure the content of the book is "not too mature for my baby" then... Well, that's not the type of reader you should be writing toward anyway, right?

What I find somewhat hilarious about our society is that this chapter is full of violence, and yet what draws the red flag? One line describing a warrior woman's clothing.

It reminds me of a time when I was watching some really bloody war movie with a man and his small daughter. I couldn't believe they were letting her watch it, what with heads exploding and stuff, but she seemed used to it. When there was a KISSING (not sex, not nudity, but kissing) scene, the man covered his daughter's eyes until it was over.

[cjhuitt he/him]

So, as you said, this is quite different than the last version you sent out.

I liked the initial setup (although I wonder how it's going to change the story to have him trying to get into the guard). I thought the writing and description at the beginning was well done (actually, the writing and description throughout). I did have some qualms as other people have mentioned, primarily revolving around plot concerns.

Some of the things I enjoyed:

• The part where Boar says he's lying about painful truths for reassurance.
  
• Also, the part where they mention Irma doesn't even have balls.
  
• The fact Coil didn't know how to make a fist.
  
• How Irna switched after the fight, helping him (as a "farmer"), and promising to find him later (or at least starting to).
  
• That Hael was sorry about something. However, I wasn't clear if it was about Coil making the watch, or about not being there to help him do so. Maybe both. (If the ambiguity wasn't intended, you might try to clear it up. Or you might try to leave it -- I don't think it matters significantly.)
  

Things I didn't like so much:

• After the first break, things changed more into backstory. I thought it slowed the pace just a bit where you didn't want to slow things down yet. Maybe take the first three paragraphs and try to compress them into just one, with just the essence in them?
  
• The backstory behind him and Irna, especially Coil asking about the flute. While I think it's actually kind of humorous, and also shows Coil shying away from thinking about the fight itself, in this part of the scene I didn't like it, and I didn't think it really added much to the course of the chapter, so I would be in favor of cutting it (unless it's really important some other time, although it doesn't seem like it would be).
  
• "He made a noise lost himself". I'm guessing something got overlooked during an edit?
  
• Coil's declaration of love. I thought that seemed either to be the wrong time for it, or not led up to enough. It's possible a sentence or three of Coil's thoughts for us to follow would set the stage properly for this, but for now it seems to stick out.
  

Things I wasn't sure about:

• The man standing over Coil when the fight was almost over. I assume this is world building or foreshadowing or something, but it confused me when I read it.
  
• The relationship that gets revealed between Coil and Hael at the end. Having read your previous submission, I was looking for it, and I could see the hints and foreshadowing that was leading up to it. However, I am somewhat in agreement with the others that it seems unnecessary. Hael being sorry and relieved enough to declare he could kiss Coil seemed fine to me, though, and I mentioned above about my main problem with the rest. My ambivalence toward this part is mostly that it seems unnecessary, but if it sets character traits that come into play later, it's probably fine.
  
• Irna's nekkidness. I read the other's thoughts on that earlier, and I both agree and disagree with them. I was slightly thrown by the shirtless thing, but I tend to think a lot of that was the way it was described. I also thought that part of it may be in addition to the violence, since it already seems odd for a (potential) JV story to start with such violence. The shirtless part happens first, however, and in contrast to the rest of the scene is a brief bit that sticks out, so I wonder if it's easier to overemphasize its effect in hindsight. I would also agree that it could be improved by a few phrasing differences, without really changing much about the scene.
  
• I also wasn't sure how this fit in keeping the book JV or not, or if you even want to think about those things right now. Compared to the earlier submission you sent out, this one definitely feels like it should be for an older audience, to me. It might be how it leads in, however, because the last one had fighting and death in it as well. However, it seemed to be less graphic, and it was also worked up to, since at the start the last time, we saw a wasting death due to illness, instead of a painful, bloody fight ended by arrows.
  

Well, enough of me rambling for now.

[Yados]

Sorry I've been so bad about responding to this (and everyone else's)

I did take a lot of this stuff to heart. I nixed the l-word and some of the exposition. I toned down the dialogue in the beginning. I didn't do anything different with Irna, but I probably will. One of my female alpha-readers noted that, propriety aside, it's really difficult to fight with breasts sans proper support. I took her word on it.

This was the only sizable bit I added, though. Just to set it up, I moved the chapter to atop the wall, not in the snow.

And then it was over. The pressure ended and Coil fell back onto his knees. He realized there was a noise but he couldn’t focus on it. Everyone else seemed like they were. They drumbeats stopped. Coil tried to focus.

There was a horn; it’s call strong yet wandering. The watchmen were dispersing. Coil shook himself and tried to stand. He couldn’t. Instead, he squinted blearily blindways.

There was a man in the bare snow beyond the wall riding furiously sightward. Coil blinked. Was that a horse? He’d never seen a horse before. But Deathlanders didn’t ride horses. Even men who lived within the Sight didn’t. They were for Kings and High Lords. Were all horses so small, he wondered absently.

Behind the man rode three other Deathlanders, who were more what Coil had been taught to expect. Each wore wooden armor with leather tassels flowing behind them and each was mounted on a towering, black hound. Two were knocking arrows on small, strangely curved bows. Coil blinked. The forest that lay a mile beyond the Sight. The Unchained Forrest. It was shaking. Were the trees moving closer?

Before him, still, towered Irna. She looked troubled and blindways. Hael and Boar hadn’t dispersed with the other guardsmen and stood behind. They didn’t approach. There was no sign of the man in white. Blearily, Coil attempted a smile at the Hael, but it might have been obscured by the blood. The guardsman’s expression was unreadable.

Irna looked down at him. Both the cold and the frenzy had left her face. “There are enemies at the walls, farmer,” she said and extended her arm. Not knowing why, Coil took it. She pulled him on his feet. “Run for your life. I will find you anoth--” she cut out as two wet thumps of sent a sudden silence amidst the chaos of pain and battle sounds. Two points stuck from Irna-- one through her right forearm and one through her left breast. She blinked and Coil’s shock cut through his pains once more.

Irna’s mouth opened to shout something she hadn’t the breath for and her eyes went wide but she did not let go of Coil’s arm even as she began to topple. Backwards. Blindways.

Coil gasped. Even through his panic, he knew what would happen if the girl fell outside of the Sight. He tried to stand firm but his legs were buckling. It wasn’t working, he could feel Irna’s weight pulling him forward. Then, suddenly, Irna made a garbled sound and let go of his wrist. All Coil had to do was let go and he’d be safe.

Coil gritted his teeth and grabbed onto Irna’s wrist. He pulled, hard. Coil couldn’t fight, even when his life depended on it, but he had worked a harvest. He was stronger than he looked. The two toppled backwards off the wall.

As they fell, Coil’s stomach lurched. But he felt a twinge of relief. Sightwards, he thought. At least the worst that could happen now was death. Then they hit the snow and Coil didn’t think of anything but blackness and the laughter that came from nowhere at once.

For the second time that day, Coil blearily shuddered back into consciousness. Hael and Boar were peeling Irna’s body off him. There were some new pains--the ache in his back where he had hit the snow and pinpoint lash on his chest where one of Irna’s arrow-points had slashed him on impact-- but Coil seemed to be alive.

“Coil,” Hael said, little more than a whisper, and clutched his arm. Coil felt the contact more strongly than his pain. There was red under those bright eyes. Had he been crying?

“Guardsman down,” Boar prompted and Hael wrenched his eyes from Coil and onto Irna, cursing horribly and breathlessly. Coil couldn’t help but smile. Irna was alive.

“I didn’t die,” he said, somewhat garbled by his throbbing tounge. Blood dribbled down his chin.

I wonder if anyone has thoughts on that if only because it gave Coil something mildly heroic to do up front. I realized that was missing.