Dalinar's Broken Radiantdar

[Oudeis he/him]

Dalinar picks Amaram to be his first Knight Radiant.

 

Dalinar could hardly have swung a dead ugly lizard-crab thing without hitting a Radiant among his closest allies. 50% of his offspring, the halfway-sorta-maybe-bride of the rest, his chief bodyguard, at least half his niblings... Adolin, Navani or Amaram were pretty much his only close compatriots who are probably not Radiants. And a lot of people think Adolin will be, Navani might well have the potential. Pretty much Amaram was the one and only person near to Dalinar with absolutely no chance of being a Surgebinder.

 

C'mon, man.

[maxal she/her]

Well........

 

Dalinar's main weakness is his tendency to turn a blind eye towards the actions of those he trusts... He does it with Sadeas. He does it with Amaram. He does with Elhokar. He also does it with Kaladin, but that one turned out well.

 

He chose Amaram because he saw Amaram as the most honorable person he knew. He failed to see something may be off with the man and Kaladin's warning was not sufficient to change his mind.

 

Bottom line is Dalinar should really listen to Adolin when he tells him not to trust someone as he has never been wrong so far.

[Oudeis he/him]

Hrm... I started this thread mostly as a joke, but now I'm noticing something. It was in Taln's Interlude that Dalinar hatches his plan to test Amaram to see if he's really the slimy, evil cremling we know he actually is. So he's at least entertaining the possibility that Amaram actually is a murdering chullhole. What was the rush? Why did he have to name Amaram already? Why do it while not entirely convinced that this man doesn't slaughter his own loyal guards out of greed?

[maxal she/her]

I am unsure about the exact timeline, but from my recollection, it went as this:

 

1) Amaram arrives in the Shattered Plains and is being warmly greeted by Dalinar

 

2) Dalinar tells everyone how he hopes to bring Amaram to his house.

 

3) Kaladin warns Dalinar about Amaram and tells him the truth about his shardblade and the men he slaughtered to obtain it.

 

4) Dalinar openly dismisses Kaladin thinking it a boy's grudges, but based on his experience with Sadeas, he saw fit to investigate.

 

5) Amaram lies to Dalinar about the shardblade and Dalinar is inclined to believe him.

 

6) Dalinar's investigation yields no results. All 17 witnesses' version of the story was inline with Amaram's. Dalinar confronts Kaladin and tells him to drop it as his story has been proven wrong.

 

7) Dalinar appoints Amaram at the head of the new Radiants. Kaladin learns this during the menagerie date, which happens one chapter before the four on one duel.

 

8) During the duel, Dalinar implores Amaram to step in and defend his sons, but he refuses. I believe this to be the turning point. Dalinar started to think Amaram may have lied to him as his behavior was not in accordance with his reputation.

 

9) Dalinar designs his plan to prove Amaram's guilt.

 

10) It works. Dalinar confronts Amaram, the truth's comes out. Dalinar promises Kaladin he would trial Amaram, later.

 

I do think Dalinar changed his mind about Amaram during the four on one duel. Dalinar has proven to be an individual needing strong examples in order to change his mind. He is very stubborn. He needed Galivar's death to understand the cruelty of the Blackthorn's ways. He needed the death of 6000 of his men to learn not to blindly trust an ally because of an old friendship. He treated the Amaram's issue much better than the Sadeas's, but the result is the same: Dalinar has issues seeing the wrongs in people he helps in high esteem.

[Oudeis he/him]

As I already said, in the Taln interlude, somewhere between your point 3 and 7, Dalinar sets up his plan to see if Amaram really is as honest as he claims. He might believe that Amaram is, in fact, honest, but he's at least willing to accept the possibility that Amaram is scum.

[Arondell]

I am unsure about the exact timeline, but from my recollection, it went as this:

 

1) Amaram arrives in the Shattered Plains and is being warmly greeted by Dalinar

 

2) Dalinar tells everyone how he hopes to bring Amaram to his house.

 

3) Kaladin warns Dalinar about Amaram and tells him the truth about his shardblade and the men he slaughtered to obtain it.

 

4) Dalinar openly dismisses Kaladin thinking it a boy's grudges, but based on his experience with Sadeas, he saw fit to investigate.

 

5) Amaram lies to Dalinar about the shardblade and Dalinar is inclined to believe him.

 

6) Dalinar's investigation yields no results. All 17 witnesses' version of the story was inline with Amaram's. Dalinar confronts Kaladin and tells him to drop it as his story has been proven wrong.

 

7) Dalinar appoints Amaram at the head of the new Radiants. Kaladin learns this during the menagerie date, which happens one chapter before the four on one duel.

 

8) During the duel, Dalinar implores Amaram to step in and defend his sons, but he refuses. I believe this to be the turning point. Dalinar started to think Amaram may have lied to him as his behavior was not in accordance with his reputation.

 

9) Dalinar designs his plan to prove Amaram's guilt.

 

10) It works. Dalinar confronts Amaram, the truth's comes out. Dalinar promises Kaladin he would trial Amaram, later.

 

 

 

Dalinar didn't confront Kaladin about the results of his investigation until after the duel when Elhokar had Kaladin in chains and before he got moved into prison.  In regards to Dalinar not believing Kaladin's claims I willing to give Dalinar a little slack.  He did investigate enough to get the accounts of seventeen men.  Along with Amaram who he has known for most of his life as the most honorable man he knows.  What is he supposed to do with that balance of evidence?  Now if Kaladin had been able to take that one extra step and reveal his abilities and have Syl vouch for him then I think that might well have solidly convinced Dalinar.  The word of an Honorspren would be hard for Dalinar to discount.

[maxal she/her]

As I already said, in the Taln interlude, somewhere between your point 3 and 7, Dalinar sets up his plan to see if Amaram really is as honest as he claims. He might believe that Amaram is, in fact, honest, but he's at least willing to accept the possibility that Amaram is scum.

 

He really designed his plan during this interlude? That's the part I was unsure of. I thought this event happened at a later time which is why I have associated the duel as the turning point.

 

Hmmm if Dalinar is convinced enough of Amaram's innocence at the time to appoint him at the head of the new Radiants, then why does he bother trying to trap him? It does not make sense.... Going through with this plan implies he has at least some doubts, so why make the wager he is wrong and give Amaram the Radiant's cape? He could have waited another two weeks....

 

I see your point. The only answer I am able to come with, right now, is him sensing the urgency due to the countdown on the wall... He felt he had to act promptly. However, as I said, Dalinar has proven to be a very bad judge of characters, so I am not entirely surprised he messed up with this one. At the very least, he learned enough from his past mistake to actually try to cover himself.

 

Overall, Dalinar's Radiantdar is not so good. He failed to see anything different about Kaladin despite all the clues being lined out right under his eyes... He failed to see anything different about Renarin: he did not even see fit to interrogate his son as to why he stopped wearing his glasses... As I said, he turns a blind eyes on those he trusts.

[maxal she/her]

New timeline.

 

1) Amaram arrives in the Shattered Plains and is being warmly greeted by Dalinar

 

2) Dalinar tells everyone how he hopes to bring Amaram to his house.

 

3) Kaladin warns Dalinar about Amaram and tells him the truth about his shardblade and the men he slaughtered to obtain it.

 

4) Dalinar openly dismisses Kaladin thinking it a boy's grudges, but based on his experience with Sadeas, he saw fit to investigate.

 

5) Amaram lies to Dalinar about the shardblade and Dalinar is inclined to believe him.

 

6) However, Dalinar designs his plan to prove Amaram's guilt or innocence.

 

7) Dalinar appoints Amaram at the head of the new Radiants. Kaladin learns this during the menagerie date, which happens one chapter before the four on one duel.

 

8) During the duel, Dalinar implores Amaram to step in and defend his sons, but he refuses. I believe this to be the turning point. Dalinar started to think Amaram may have lied to him as his behavior was not in accordance with his reputation.

 

9) Dalinar's first investigation yields no results. All 17 witnesses' version of the story was inline with Amaram's. Dalinar confronts Kaladin and tells him to drop it as his story has been proven wrong.

 

10) The plan bears fruit. Dalinar confronts Amaram, the truth's comes out. Dalinar promises Kaladin he would trial Amaram, later.

[maxal she/her]

Dalinar didn't confront Kaladin about the results of his investigation until after the duel when Elhokar had Kaladin in chains and before he got moved into prison.  In regards to Dalinar not believing Kaladin's claims I willing to give Dalinar a little slack.  He did investigate enough to get the accounts of seventeen men.  Along with Amaram who he has known for most of his life as the most honorable man he knows.  What is he supposed to do with that balance of evidence?  Now if Kaladin had been able to take that one extra step and reveal his abilities and have Syl vouch for him then I think that might well have solidly convinced Dalinar.  The word of an Honorspren would be hard for Dalinar to discount.

 

You are right is saying Kaladin did not offer much in terms of proof to support his claim. I certainly do not fault Dalinar for not believing him on the spot. However, Kaladin's accusations bear enough weight to Dalinar for him to launch a secret investigation. Why in this case does he go forward and name Amaram a Radiant before he is able to collect all the clues?

[Arondell]

It is actually unclear when Dalinar actually set about to conclusively test Amaram's honesty.  After all he does not bond the blade until after Kaladin is imprisoned.  This is shown when he withdraws and feigns illness for a week as he bonds the blade "Taln" had with him when he arrived at the war camps.

 

My impression was that prior to the duel Dalinar felt his investigation was sufficient.  Lets face it under most circumstances having that much corroborating evidence would be considered more then enough.  Kaladin's continued insistence combined with Amaram's less then courageous behavior during the duel with the follow up weak excuse is what probably compelled him to test Amaram with the shard blade and truly settle the matter.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Arondell

[maxal she/her]

It is actually unclear when Dalinar actually set about to conclusively test Amaram's honesty.  After all he does not bond the blade until after Kaladin is imprisoned.  This is shown when he withdraws and feigns illness for a week as he bonds the blade "Taln" had with him when he arrived at the war camps.

 

My impression was that prior to the duel Dalinar felt his investigation was sufficient.  Lets face it under most circumstances having that much corroborating evidence would be considered more then enough.  Kaladin's continued insistence combined with Amaram's less then courageous behavior during the duel with the follow up weak excuse is what probably compelled him to test Amaram with the shard blade and truly settle the matter.

 

I have initially assumed the same thing. However, Outis's post have set doubts in my mind... My book is not close, so what did Dalinar say exactly during the Taln's interlude? He sets the plan into motion during Kaladin's imprisonment, but had he already decided to do it prior to the duel?

 

I think it is quite clear he interrogated the 17 witness prior to having made Amaram's a Radiant and I do agree with you there is a strong chance he may have think this was sufficient proof.

[cem he/him]

Hrm... I started this thread mostly as a joke, but now I'm noticing something. It was in Taln's Interlude that Dalinar hatches his plan to test Amaram to see if he's really the slimy, evil cremling we know he actually is. So he's at least entertaining the possibility that Amaram actually is a murdering chullhole. What was the rush? Why did he have to name Amaram already? Why do it while not entirely convinced that this man doesn't slaughter his own loyal guards out of greed?

A tangent, perhaps, with the rest of the discussion in this thread, but I find it strange how people believe Amaram is some epitome of evil.

 

[rant]

I think he is just so very average. Yes, he murdered because of greed. People murder each other for five bucks every single day. How many people are there even in the world who would not murder to get something as valuable as a full set of Shardblade if they believed they could get away with it? Not many, I would think. Yes, he is a religious nut who's trying to bring the apocalypse. He's hardly the first person who took his belief to the extreme, or who is just sure that he's the only one who knows what to do and wants to decide the fate of the world without giving a crap about what people think. Yes, he is a racist. Go anywhere in the world, and people are racist about someone. Yes, he abused his power. Well, that is what politicians do when there isn't anyone around to stop them.

[/rant]

 

Okay, I'm done. I think the reason Amaram turned into such a hate magnet is because it was Kaladin he hurt. Kaladin is loved so much (he's by far my favorite character too), people tend to adopt his hate of Amaram. Personally, I like Amaram as a character. I would say he is one of the most realistic characters Brandon has created, if not the most.

[Windreader she/her]

That's true, he is quite realistic. But... Kaladin and his squad save him, and then he kills most of the survivors. Even if it is realistic, it is just a horrible thing for him to do.

And yes, Dalinar really needs to work on his Radiantdar. As is, he'd probably end up suspecting everyone who's not a Radiant.

[RawToast225 he/him]

I think that we can chalk his appointing Amaram to the position as a misinterpretation of his visions. He felt pressure from the Almighties sense of urgency to refound the KR, so he made a mistake because of that pressure. When pressure was apparently alleviated, he thought Kaladin was a Radiant, but by that time he wasn't. Lol

All in all, he really just needs to take a deep breath and say, "The Allmighty sucks." Then he could probs figure out who the KR's are.

[sun tzaro]

The Sons of Honor believe that they are doing the right thing.

 

Gavilar was a Son of Honor. Near the end of his days, he started to follow the Way of Kings. He was the one who introduced the book to Dalinar, and Dalinar thought he was crazy. The Way of Kings is practically the foundation of Dalinar's notion of honor.I know that a lot of people write Gavilar off as "he wasn't as good a person as everyone sees him as" - but... that's also true of Dalinar, who at one point was the ruthless and terrifying Blackthorne. People change, and it seemed that Gavilar had changed quite a bit.

 

To me, Amaram seems to be the type of person who acts honorably unless he believes that acting dishonorably better serves his notion of the greater good. Now, you could argue that inconsistent honor is hardly honor at all, but the fact remains that he had a near sterling reputation. Only a few were privy to knowledge of the ruthlessness he was capable of.

 

It's really not a surprising decision. Amaram was well-liked, and he was in the service of Sadeas, so naming him head of the Radiants was a rather unifying gesture.

[Oudeis he/him]

It's really not a surprising decision. Amaram was well-liked, and he was in the service of Sadeas, so naming him head of the Radiants was a rather unifying gesture.

 

You're slightly missing the point of my joke, which is that whatever his reason, if he'd randomly selected someone near him instead of picking Amaram specifically, he'd've had a decent chance of promoting an actual Radiant.

 

You're also sorta missing the point of my serious point, which is that at the time Dalinar was at least willing to entertain the possibility that Amaram was a liar who would slaughter his own loyal guards, as evidenced by the fact that he'd set a plan in motion long since to test Amaram's loyalty. It was only a few weeks from fruition at that point. I don't see the rush. Dalinar has stated many, many times that he's given up on "unity" with Sadeas; at that point they are a few days away from a plan that will bring about Sadeas's death. What does he gain from appointing Amaram now? And why isn't it ever said, or even implied in the slightest, what he hopes to get out of it? We can speculate on a dozen different reasons, but they have no more factual basis than if I were to speculate the exact opposite, like, "Dalinar might have a tumor pressing against the judgement centers of his brain causing him to make absolutely terrible choices."

 

Actually, yeah, I wonder if this is what's been bothering me about this all this time. Why isn't it ever said, anywhere (unless I've missed it? If someone has a quote from the text where it's flat-out said, "this is why he does it," please post it. Please also note I am not asking for your own speculations or assumptions, I want to know if it's ever said in the book, or in WoB, why this happened.) why Dalinar felt it needed to happen now? It seems shoehorned into the plot, like a lazy writing trick.

 

Don't get me wrong. As far as I'm concerned, most other books are built entirely from lazy writing tricks. The fact that there are one or two in his book is why he's simply the most amazing author I have ever read or could imagine, rather than a truly perfect being I worship as literally divine. I think I'll feel better about this whole aspect, now that I've potentially recognized the source of why it's been bothering me so, all this time.

[Quiver he/him]

Dalinar picks Amaram to be his first Knight Radiant.

 

Dalinar could hardly have swung a dead ugly lizard-crab thing without hitting a Radiant among his closest allies. 50% of his offspring, the halfway-sorta-maybe-bride of the rest, his chief bodyguard, at least half his niblings... Adolin, Navani or Amaram were pretty much his only close compatriots who are probably not Radiants. And a lot of people think Adolin will be, Navani might well have the potential. Pretty much Amaram was the one and only person near to Dalinar with absolutely no chance of being a Surgebinder.

 

C'mon, man.

 

Actually, from Dalinar's perspective, I can totally see why Amaram would be the logical choice.

 

First- he doesn't have ties to the Kholin family. He isn't one of Dalinar's vassals, and he isn't a blood-member of the family. It means that the Rdaiants look more like a neutral group, whereas making Renarin, Adolin, or any other member of his family would have opened him up to criticisms of nepotism from the others, the idea that he was using the Radiant-hood to solidify his own power... all of which would ultimately damage his cause.

 

Second- not only is Amaram not one of Dalianr's servants, he's one of Sadeas. It's a show of unity, him saying "I don't care who you serve under, anyone can be a Radiant". Amarams status under Sadeas (ie, as a powerful commander) also helps neutralise any suspicion that the position is for a sycophant.

 

Three- he's a lighteyes. And considering how unpopular the Radiants are, using a Lighteyes as a leader makes sense. It eases the practice into society, by using constructs they are already familiar with ie: Lighteyes are leaders and general.

 

Four- Amaram had a stellar reputation. He really wasn't a noble (at least in the public eye) who could be said to have been bought, bribed, or otherwise manipulated into taking the position. He was the exemplar of what an Alethi Lighteyes was supposed to be; didn't Kaladin refer to him in pretty much those same terms during his flashbacks in Way Of Kings? 

Yeah, Amaram turned out to be a horrible choice, but... it's not exactly based on anything he could have known. Presumably, members of secret societies are rather good at covering their tracks, especially societies who want to restore the Vorin church to power.

[Ickarium]

For me, the reason I dislike Amaram is ... I don't buy the honor thing.  That's what he -tells himself-.  But, while I could be wrong, it reads to me as petty excuses.  He does what he wants, how he wants, and then tells himself he's doing it for the right reasons, when he's not.  He knows he's not, but the lies are a pretty illusion.  Kind of like Shallan, only for less good reasons.

That sort of hypocrisy annoys me, and it has nothing to do with Kaladin as, while I like him, I prefer Dalinar and Shallan.