Idea about the Origin of Nightblood

[KalynaAnne]

I had this (probably crazy) idea today and posted it on Tumblr and it was suggested I bring it here as well.  I tried to search to see if it was already here somewhere and didn't find anything - I apologize in advance if my searching-fu was lacking and I'm creating a repeat topic.

 

Theory:

 

At the very end of WoR, Nin gives Szeth a black Shardblade that lives in a metal sheath and asks in a cheerful voice "Would you like to destroy some evil today?"  It is fairly clear that this is Nightblood from Warbreaker. We know that Nightblood was Awakened by Vasher and Shashara. However, even accounting for the sheer number of breaths involved in Awakening steel, Nightblood is odd for an Awakened object.  We don't see any other Awakened objects that actively draw the breath from their users or leak black smoke.  Here's my crazy idea:

 

What if Nightblood was not originally from Nalthis? What if Nin is returning Nightblood to its native Roshar?  We know Vashar was involved in awakening it, but I can't remember or find any mention of where the sword came from before it was Awakened.  What if Nightblood was originally a dead-spren shardblade?

 

The thing that got me thinking about this was noticing how well Nightblood's attempts at understanding what evil actually is in a human context parallel conversations we get involving Pattern and Syl trying to understand human concepts. Syl tells us that the dead-spren shardblades are partially revived when they are summoned. Awakening seems like it could be brute forced into reviving a dead-spren shardblade, though without a proper human/spren bond things would be wonky. This could explain Nightblood's odd mental ability.  Like the spren in the Stormlight Archive, Nightblood is able to slowly learn to understand human concepts.  However, unlike Pattern and Syl, Nightblood lacks a proper human-spren bond and thus is proving to have a much, much slower ability to learn.   

 

Spren lose their sentience if they loose their bond with their human (we see this with Syl and Kaladin in addition to being told about it).  It would be reasonable for a dead-spren Shardblade Nightblood to require frequent replenishment of breath - just like the Returned require a regular supply of breath to remain "alive". This could provide an explanation for Nightblood's breath draining property.

 

We know that black is a powerful color for fueling Awakening.  If Nightblood is originally from Roshar rather than Nalthis, then the BioChromatic breath is not actually the right power source. It would want Stormlight which, as far as I can tell, is white.  The process of converting Breath into power the spren-based sword can use could plausibly involve filtering out the color resulting in the black color of the blade and then the excess being released as the signature "black smoke."

 

So, yeah.  There's my idea.  I'm fluctuating between thinking it is completely insane and thinking it is just the kind of crazy that might actually have a chance.  On the off chance there is any truth to it, the power implications for an Awakened Shardblade seem like they would be off the charts... Regardless, I have found it interesting to think about and would be happy to hear other people's thoughts :-)

[Purelake Earthquake]

My crazy idea about this situation is that Vasher and Shashara (and maybe some others of the five scholars) are originally from Roshar and had to leave and stay in Nalthis for some reason, and they figured out how to make a version of a shardblade on Nalthis using Nalthian magic.  But I do think Nightblood is native to Nalthis, we haven't seen any other type IV BioChromatic entities.  Come to think of it type I (returned) and IV are both in the same column, things granted sentience.  And they share some other similarities. Both need to be fed breaths, Returned are given them and Nightblood takes them.  Nightblood has black smoke, retuned of the tenth hightening have color distortion.

We know Vasher is a worldhopper, but we don't know if he was at the point of Warbreaker.  But now that I think about it he does seem more cosmere aware.  The whole BioChromatic entity typing system seems like something someone would come up who knew about other magic systems, so I think he, and possibly other of the scholars, originated from another planet, probably Roshar, then I think he was in some sort of exile on Nalthis.  We see in WoR that he has trouble adjusting to Rosahran linguistic, he uses very Nalthian sayings involving color.  This would imply he has basically stayed on Nalthis for a really long time.  But I have no idea, I like wild speculation.

 

I like Nalthis for theorizing, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the Warbreaker magic.  With Stormlight magic though, I feel like we hardly know anything about it.  It's like quantum physics, if you think you understand all about it that means you probably don't.  I really have no idea what's up with that so I can't comment on the spren theories.

Edited November 21, 2014 by Purelake Earthquake

[cem]

I don't think it would be possible to Awaken a Shardblade such as we see in Roshar. One of the rules of magic in cosmere is that Invested objects resist further Investiture. So, say, an honorspren, a being that is pure Investiture and enough of it to be called a Splinter, should need, in my opinion, lots and lots and lots of power. I mean Vin needed the use the mist to fuel her Allomancy to Steelpush Lord Ruler's metalminds. I think Radiant spren would take something similar, and I don't think Vasher and co had it.

 

Also there's this: http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=979#51 The last sentence.

 

Sorry to poke holes in your theory. I like the idea, but I don't think it's likely. 

[Blaze1616]

...

 

It was a very fascinating theory, but, as cem has pointed out, it is highly unlikely that a shardblade could hold any more investiture, let alone the 1000 Breaths that were required to Awaken Nightblood. In addition, if your theory were to be correct and the Awakening revived the dead spren, why would Nightblood so earnestly follow the Command given to him?

 

Keep theorizing though! We need some crazy shenanigans to keep us on our toes.

 

My crazy idea about this situation is that Vasher and Shashara (and maybe some others of the five scholars) are originally from Roshar and had to leave and stay in Nalthis for some reason, and they figured out how to make a version of a shardblade on Nalthis using Nalthian magic.  But I do think Nightblood is native to Nalthis, we haven't seen any other type IV BioChromatic entities.  Come to think of it type I (returned) and IV are both in the same column, things granted sentience.  And they share some other similarities. Both need to be fed breaths, Returned are given them and Nightblood takes them.  Nightblood has black smoke, retuned of the tenth hightening have color distortion.

We know Vasher is a worldhopper, but we don't know if he was at the point of Warbreaker.  But now that I think about it he does seem more cosmere aware.  The whole BioChromatic entity typing system seems like something someone would come up who knew about other magic systems, so I think he, and possibly other of the scholars, originated from another planet, probably Roshar, then I think he was in some sort of exile on Nalthis.  We see in WoR that he has trouble adjusting to Rosahran linguistic, he uses very Nalthian sayings involving color.  This would imply he has basically stayed on Nalthis for a really long time.  But I have no idea, I like wild speculation.

 

I like Nalthis for theorizing, I feel like I have a pretty good grasp on the Warbreaker magic.  With Stormlight magic though, I feel like we hardly know anything about it.  It's like quantum physics, if you think you understand all about it that means you probably don't.  I really have no idea what's up with that so I can't comment on the spren theories.

 

I find it highly unlikely that any of the five scholars are not from Nalthis, because they are all Returned. We know this for sure due to the sheer length of Vasher's and Denth's lives. On top of that:

 

source

ZAS678

Can a Drab Return?

BRANDON SANDERSON

A Drab can not Return as the Returned are known, and there are things about the Drab that are not completely understood. But a Drab without a Breath, it’s going to be very hard. Drabs do not Return. Good question, by the way. No one has ever asked me that before.

 

The difference between a Drab and any other Nalthian is the fact that they do not have any Breath within them. In addition, a human is only born with a Breath if born on Nalthis. A non-Nalthian should then be similar to a Drab, and upon death should not be eligible to Return. It is interesting, though, that Brandon specifies a "Drab without a Breath," but as we understand it all Drabs have no Breath. So is it then possible for a "Drab" to hold a Breath? Could this potentially be a non-Nalthian that was given Breath? I still find it highly unlikely that the Scholars are from anywhere other than Nalthis, but the questions I pose do provide an opening for your theory to gain some ground. I will be adding variants to these questions to the Ult. List topic.

 

Edit: Found a more succinct WoB for you, Purelake Earthquake:

 

source

Q. In Words of Radiance, we have Vasher showing up.  One of his aliases on Nalthis is Kalad, which is very similar to the name of one of the Heralds on Roshar. So I was wondering how far back this connection between him and Roshar goes.

A. It goes pretty far back, in fact I wrote Way of Kings, the 2002 version; he was a main character and was Kaladin’s sword master. I wrote Warbreaker to jump back and write out his back story, so to me Warbreaker actually came after Way of Kings. But the connection goes back pretty far, further than you would first guess.

Q. Did he actually come from Nalthis and not Roshar?

A. I’m not going to actually answer that one… Well I can answer that: yes he does come from Nalthis. It’s pretty obvious that the way that the breath’s working, the reason he moved is because it’s easier to get stormlight than breaths, and stormlight can fuel being a Returned like him. And so yes, he was born on Nalthis. Becoming Returned without being born on Nalthis would be really hard.

 

Emphasis added. The first Q is included to show the "he" is Vasher.

 

Edit 2: Forgot to source the new WoB.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Blaze1616

[staizer]

I do have to preface this by saying that this is all based on my understanding of how investiture works:

 

I have to say that this is an very interesting theory.

 

The counter argument that this is not possible because they are already imbued with invesiture is somewhat flawed by the fact that the shardblades are dead.

 

Using your thoughts to summon the spirit of a dead spren summons the physical body of them to your hand in ten heartbeats. Yes they are imbued with SOME investiture, but the shear amount of breath that was put into Nightblood was insane. If the investiture of breath was enough to reawaken a mostly dead shardblade then it may work. Invesititure of already invested items CAN work if you overwhelm the previous investment especially if it is enough to revive the dead spren.

 

Whether Vasher was originally from Roshar, died and was brought back as a Returned for whatever reasons, and tried to reawaken the shardblade without remembering what it was. Or if Vasher was actually from Nalthis, used regular metal and just wanted to awaken it. I think the fact that he managed to make something either similar to a shardblade or to "quasi"-revive a shardblade is amazing.

[gjustice99]

Whether Vasher was originally from Roshar, died and was brought back as a Returned for whatever reasons, and tried to reawaken the shardblade without remembering what it was. 

But we know for a fact that Vasher is from Nalthis, not Roshar.

[Redbird]

I actually found a quote stating that nightblood is a shardblade.

 

 

Nightblood is a very unique kind of Shardblade, but IS a Shardblade.

Source, the 15th post.

 

So Nightblood is a shardblade, although it is not stated whether he started that way.

[Marns]

Hi this is my first post! I try to write the best I can ! ( I'm from Spain and my grammar is a mess, sorry for that, you are welcome to tell me what I do wrong)

 

Well, I think that is important to define what is a 'Shardblade'.

 

From what I understand a Shardblade is a manifestation in the physical realm of some kind of 'thing' in the cognitive realm and acquires his power from the spiritual realm. So a normal Shardblade is type of manifestation of Spren , who is a cognitive idea in the physical realm, and obtains his power through the stormlight ( spiritual realm).

 

Nightblood check all this points. ( Is a manifestation of a Consciousness from the cognitive realm, who is feeded with BioChroma breath ) the important here is that "consciousness". A normal Shardblade has his spren dead, his cognitive aspect is trapped,  we know that the spren must have a Nahel bond for 'think' in the physical realm.

 

Nightblood do not have a bond, have another thing, I suspect that what Sanderson is try to mean. But I think your idea is very interesting!

[Blaze1616]

 

Hi this is my first post! I try to write the best I can ! ( I'm from Spain and my grammar is a mess, sorry for that, you are welcome to tell me what I do wrong)

 

Well, I think that is important to define what is a 'Shardblade'.

 

From what I understand a Shardblade is a manifestation in the physical realm of some kind of 'thing' in the cognitive realm and acquires his power from the spiritual realm. So a normal Shardblade is type of manifestation of Spren , who is a cognitive idea in the physical realm, and obtains his power through the stormlight ( spiritual realm).

 

Nightblood check all this points. ( Is a manifestation of a Consciousness from the cognitive realm, who is feeded with BioChroma breath ) the important here is that "consciousness". A normal Shardblade has his spren dead, his cognitive aspect is trapped,  we know that the spren must have a Nahel bond for 'think' in the physical realm.

 

Nightblood do not have a bond, have another thing, I suspect that what Sanderson is try to mean. But I think your idea is very interesting!

 

 

I somewhat agree with Marns here. In my opinion, what Brandon is saying is that Nightblood, in his current form, is essentially a Shardblade. I do not think Brandon was being literal. As Marns points out, Nightblood has all the features of a Shardblade, but is made unique in that, unlike all the dead spren Shardblades, Nightblood is living.