Nale: Due Diligence

[Oudeis he/him]

@20 and Aleksiel:

 

...I'm not at all seeing the difference in what you say. He tried, illegally, to kill someone. He didn't have permission to kill the person, and that's what he tried to do. Regardless of the fact that he could have gotten permission, he didn't have it. I fail to see how this can be considered anything other than attempted murder. That's like saying someone who hops my fence and swims in my pool is a trespasser, but someone who does the same thing at a community pool, where he could get a pass but didn't bother, isn't a trespasser, he's merely someone who didn't get a pass. It's the same crime, performed the same way, in a slightly different context; the fundamental crime remains the same.

 

This isn't "my country's law" or "my personal view," this is simply the definition of a term. Killing a man in legitimate self-defense is one thing. Killing a man, and then saying, "well if he'd had a knife, he could have been a threat" doesn't change "murder" into "illegal attempt at defending oneself," nor should it, nor is there any reason to think that Azir would have such a bizarre and specific law.

 

Regardless, however, my point remains. Even if his crime isn't "attempted murder" but "trying to kill someone without proper authorization," he clearly took an illegal action, and a serious one that could have resulted in someone's death. It's possible that constables are given some leeway, and some cultures have a sharp difference between an attempted and a successful killing, but the minion should still logically be facing strict punishment for his crime. Will Nale insist he turn himself over to proper authorities to accept his punishment?

 

Also, I now totally wanna see a courtroom scene with Nale as a defense attorney. Also I want his help the next time I have to fill out any form in triplicate.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Ya, the third book(wistfully looking at the calender on mobile phone)..

I have a noob question. Is it incorrect to assume (on available evidence) that present Nalan is no longer the same guy he was before breaking the Oathpact? That the intervening millennia have created a twisted version of the Herald? Food for thought. What was Nalan's opinion on breaking the Oathpact? Did he see the Oathpact as a law or only a personal commitment?

Sorry for diverting the topic.

Edit: @Outis. The minion will of course face punishment but it will be equivalent of paying a fine/penalty for not getting a pass before entering the swimming pool.

The context in which a crime is committed is perhaps the most important. It the diffence between self defence and murder, as you pointed out. To expand on your example, swimming in your pool without your permission is illegal but swimming in the community pool is not illegal. Only a pass is needed. Similarly murdering a person is illegal but killing a thief is not illegal in Azir. Only a leave of execution is needed. The context of both situations is same only the crimes are different.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

I have a noob question. Is it incorrect to assume (on available evidence) that present Nalan is no longer the same guy he was before breaking the Oathpact? That the intervening millennia have created a twisted version of the Herald? Food for thought. What was Nalan's opinion on breaking the Oathpact? Did he see the Oathpact as a law or only a personal commitment?

 

It's a common theory. Shallash, who was apparently associated with the creation of art, now focuses on destroying art. The general theory is that each Herald's "divine attributes" are twisted to the opposite of what they were, or some mockery of them.

 

Whether or not the theory is true, or whether it applies to Nalan is an open question. Kalak (or some other potential Herald?) remarks to Nalan that they are "getting worse" in the WoR prologue. Might be something supernatural twisting them there, or a curse from Cultivation or something. Nalan tells Kalak(?) to shut up - which might be interpreted to mean that he's still fine. It is very likely that Nalan has his Honorblade, after all, which might mean he still theoretically counts as being part of the Oathpact and so whatever is causing Kalak to feel worse might not affect him. His values might not have been twisted.

 

Given his views ("goodness is irrelevant"), it does seem he's given up on "true justice" - but that assumes he ever had it. I'm on the fence on this one, though I do lean towards Nalan having dealt with this guilt at betraying Taln over the centuries by giving up on compassion and other emotions, which has had some detrimental effects on his actions.

 

One thing remains certain though: Nalan's fashion sense is as great as ever.

[Oudeis he/him]

I disagree with your assumption that the Azir are so blase about killing for minor crimes. You say "only" a leave of execution; the administrator is flabbergasted to see Nale has one of those for someone as minor as a thief. This is clearly not a simple matter of, "oh, I forgot to put my social security number the third time on form 3c(iii), I'll amend it when I get back." There's no reason to assume the minion could have gotten approval to kill Gwax(sp?). Even if he could have, the response from the administrator makes it clear that executing criminals is considered a much bigger deal than taking home office supplies. Doing that without authorization, even if authorization could be assumed, is probably a much bigger deal than a simple slap on the wrist.

[Aleksiel]

I disagree with your assumption that the Azir are so blase about killing for minor crimes. You say "only" a leave of execution; the administrator is flabbergasted to see Nale has one of those for someone as minor as a thief. .....

 

I don't think any ruler sees robbing their palace as minor crime, I expect the punishment to be more severe than stealing from the average citizen. The punishment for trespassing the palace when the Holy Conclave is in session is execution, no excuses; the administrator didn't have legal grounds for disagreeing with Nalan based on their conversation.

 

Gawx was guilty, no chance to prove him innocent, so he was supposed to be executed. The procedure for punishing Gawx was not followed and that was the problem, not the punishment itself. Obtaining the documents was a formality that wasn't followed and that's the part law the minion broke. 

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Truth be told, even I was surprised how the Azir could allow a thief and a trespasser be executed without any hearing at a court of law. But personal feelings aside, clearly Nalan obtained the leave of execution on those charges. If we assume that Azir can't be so casual about killing, then that means Nalan got the leave by unlawful means. But he was very particular about his legal right to kill Lift, so much so that even the vizier couldn't stop him. Since Lift and Gawx  were accomplices, it is logical to assume that the same order could be obtained for him also. Perhaps Nalan used some obscure provision of law to secure the order, so the vizier was surprised.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Oudeis he/him]

[sun tzaro]

 

 

 

@General idea of Nalan exploiting loopholes:

I completely believe Nalan would be willing to exploit the heck out of places where the law falls short. If the law uses language that somehow manages to exclude people eating ice cream from counting as victims when murdered, I could completely see him casually handing someone an ice cream cone and then killing them. 

 

While I agree that the Nalan certainly wouldn't have any problems with exploiting loopholes in the law, I'm certain that he and the Skybreakers have some sort of caveat against the type of entrapment in your example.

 

"I had to look very hard," the man said, "to discover your indiscretion."

 

I don't imagine that Nalan would have resorted to searching Ym's past for a single crime he committed 40 years ago if he had the option of setting up some sort of contrived situation in which Ym would be forced to commit a new crime. Of course, maybe you're right, and Iri just had a law against entrapment that Nalan could not violate. 

 

Aleksiel: That is one philosophy, but not the only one. I wonder which one Nale is. He can clearly wrap his mind around the idea of breaking a law, and paying the penalty. I assume he'd rather follow a law, regardless of penalty, but I wonder exactly how much leeway he gives himself.

 

Will his minion, for example, suffer the penalty for attempted murder?

 

 

Now that certainly is an interesting question. I imagine a Herald, especially one like Nalan who has access to things like ancient Progression fabrials, has the resources to fulfill nearly any penalty. His minion was willing to kill Gawx - surely Nalan could have ordered the same minion to kill Lift too, and saved himself a great deal of trouble. 

 

if we assume that Azir can't be so casual about killing, then that means Nalan got the leave by unlawful means. 

 

If a leave of execution exists legally, it can probably be obtained legally. It is clear that a lot of planning went into Lift's capture.

 

 

"I have", Darkness said, "the proper forms." 

 

One of his minions entered behind him, a man in a black and silver uniform, less ornamented. He proffered a neat stack of papers to his master.

 

Another of Darkness's minions stepped from the shadows inside the bedroom. 

 

"Even the chaotic," Darkness said, "Can be predictable with proper study." His feet thumped across the floor behind her.

 

"This is a leave of execution," the vizier said with surprise, holding up the last sheet in the stack. "You will kill the child? For mere thievery?"

 

Kill? No. No!

 

"That, in addition to trespassing in the Prime's palace," Darkness said, reaching the door. "And for interrupting a holy conclave in session."

 

The vizier held his gaze, then wilted. "I..." she said. "Ah, of course... er... constable."

 

Nalan had predicted and had paperwork for three different offenses. That shows an incredible amount of foresight and an incredible amount of preparation.

 

I think it's safe to say that no normal person would have been able to do the same. What Nalan did was by no means easy.

 

It's also worth noting that many real-life countries have obscure laws that are rarely or at the very least irregularly enforced. Judging from the Vizier's surprise, I imagine that Nalan took advantage of some such laws. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by sun tzaro

[Twenty@20 he/him]

@Sun tzaro. I agree with your view. I essentially said the same thing in one of my earlier posts also that Nalan is only using his official post of Azir constable to manipulate local laws and forward his own interests. It is open to debate whether they can be legally justified. Aleksiel has mentioned a good point earlier that Nalan and his minions can be legally justified as a specialised unit investigating Surgebinder crimes.

One more thing. You quoted a single line from my post and then proceeded to explain the same point which I had written in the very next line of the same post. The line quoted was only an assumption to prove the subsequent point.

PS. It feels awkward to be so pedantic..

[Moogle]

While I agree that the Nalan certainly wouldn't have any problems with exploiting loopholes in the law, I'm certain that he and the Skybreakers have some sort of caveat against the type of entrapment in your example.

 

I don't imagine that Nalan would have resorted to searching Ym's past for a single crime he committed 40 years ago if he had the option of setting up some sort of contrived situation in which Ym would be forced to commit a new crime. Of course, maybe you're right, and Iri just had a law against entrapment that Nalan could not violate. 

 

What sort of contrived situation are you suggesting he'd set up for Ym in which the penalty is death?

 

Ym was complicit in murdering someone, plain and simple. That's an easy way to get an execution warrant, probably. To get the equivalent via entrapment, he'd have to... what, get Ym to murder someone by threatening to kill him if he doesn't do as told? Blackmail/murder threats are probably illegal, so he can't do that. I guess we can't say much more without knowing Iri's laws, but it seems difficult to entrap someone like that while following the law.

 

Nalan can't just get people killed for minor crimes, so far as we've seen. I feel that of two options (entrapment and just looking up Ym's past), the entrapment option is the harder of the two.

 

I remain fascinated by the fact that Nalan was able to figure out Ym's past. I wish I knew how he did that.