Nale: Due Diligence

[Oudeis]

"Following the law" is actually a far more complicated ideal that you might expect.

 

How much due diligence does Nale require of himself? It seems his purpose is to kill Surgebinders. If he had purchased Kaladin while Kaladin was a slave, he'd've had the right to kill his own slave for any reason.

 

But, Kaladin was illegally made a slave. He never committed a crime or did anything to deserve his punishment. Amaram had no right to make him a slave.

 

Does Nale feel it is incumbent upon himself to research such things? Does he find all the facts and make sure that others are following the law, or does he simply accept what others say at face value?

 

Think of the law in modern times. Let's say a man steals a CD, and then legally sells it to you. Later, the entire scenario comes to light, and the person who initially owned the CD wants it back. What is the legality? Are you culpable because you didn't confirm that the man selling you the CD legally owned it? Are you required to give up the property you purchased legally to a man who lost it illegally?

 

The law can sometimes be very murky. What would Nale do if he did purchase Kaladin, killed him, and thereafter learned that Kaladin had never legally been a slave? Would he simply shrug and say, well I tried my best? Would he make some sort of restitution?

[navybrandt]

The best answer I can give is that in rare situations like the ones you mentioned, a person can still be held responsible but not accountable.  In other words, it would be their responsibility to make the situation right (give the CD back to the rightful owner), but they would not be held accountable for breaking the law (fined, jailed, etc).  This is also legally what would happen if this situation arose.

 

In other words, yes, it is your responsibility to do the due diligence before buying something from a person or you run the risk of losing what you owned if it is stolen property.  However, if you knowingly buy stolen property then you can be held accountable too as an accomplice.

 

It's like buying a used car.  Once I own it, it's my responsibility even if the previous owner didn't take care of it.

 

So, if Nale killed Kaladin, as his slave, and later learned the he was unjustly and illegally made a slave, yes, he'd probably make some sort of restitution.

[Oudeis]

How precisely would one make restitution for that? A simple fine? I wonder if Alethi laws have statutes for such responsibilities, and what they entail. If Alethi law were to state that Nale's ignorance was deemed culpable, and as such he is a murderer, and as such he is sentenced to death, would he submit and die?

[Moogle]

I imagine Nale, if he broke the law, would submit to the consequences. I can't say much about how deeply he will dig into a case before pronouncing judgement (if, say, he had Kaladin in his sights), but it seems pretty clear that the law is everything to him. I don't think he considers himself above it at all.

 

Perhaps something of note regarding Nalan: he was somehow able to figure out Ym's past crimes. That must have taken some almost supernatural detective work. I get the feeling from that that he would be able to figure out Kaladin was made a slave illegally with only a small amount of effort.

[Twenty@20]

I would expect that, as the Herald of Justice, would not follow any law which permits human slavery because slavery is the epitome of injustice. Owning a slave, let alone killing him on a whim is something we should not expect from Nale.

I know the slavery law is only a hypothetical situation, but I cannot imagine the Herald of Justice in that situation.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Edgedancer]

This is far from definite proof but the epigraph of WoR chapter 55

 

The considerable abilities of the Skybreakers for making such amounted to an almost divine skill, for which no specific Surge or spren grants capacity, but however the order came to such an aptitude, the fact of it was real and acknowledged even by their rivals.

implies that there is a supernatural ability at play, similar to Shallans memory.

 

In case he does not have such a failsave, I guess breaking the law would break him completly. Who knows how that would make him act, though.

[Moogle]

I would expect that, as the Herald of Justice, would not follow any law which permits human slavery because slavery is the epitome of injustice. Owning a slave, let alone killing him on a whim is something we should not expect from Nale.

I know the slavery law is only a hypothetical situation, but I cannot imagine the Herald of Justice in that situation.

 

I don't think Nalan is interested in that sort of "injustice". If slavery were legal (which it is in most of Roshar), I imagine he'd support the law. He's shown no signs of being against laws which people don't like.

[Oudeis]

Twenty: Nale obviously follows laws as written. He clearly approved of Szeth and the way he slavishly obeyed a law that was not only about making him a slave, but later proved to be unjust and unfounded. Your personal feelings aside, the text is clear on this issue. If Alethi law allows for slaves, Nale would follow Alethi law. "Doing what's right" regardless of the law is more of a Windrunner thing than a Skybreaker thing.

 

@Edgedancer: A curious conundrum. Does he consider laws absolute like that? If a local law stated that you could not enter this garden without permission, and the punishment was that you had to pay a fine, does this mean that legally you're allowed to do it as long as you pay the fine? Is Nale capable of breaking laws, as long as he accepts the consequences proscribed? Or is he unable to break a law under literally any circumstance, even if the only punishment is community service?

[navybrandt]

Nale is "Lawful Neutral"

[Aleksiel]

If a local law stated that you could not enter this garden without permission, and the punishment was that you had to pay a fine, does this mean that legally you're allowed to do it as long as you pay the fine? Is Nale capable of breaking laws, as long as he accepts the consequences proscribed? Or is he unable to break a law under literally any circumstance, even if the only punishment is community service?

 

No, it doesn't mean you are allowed to enter so long as you pay a fine; the punishment for breaking the law not to enter is a fine. You make it sound like you buy a ticket... Everyone is capable of breaking a law, however Nale will not knowingly/purposely break any law. Accepting the consequences of breaking the law doesn't make you lawful. 

[Oudeis]

Aleksiel: That is one philosophy, but not the only one. I wonder which one Nale is. He can clearly wrap his mind around the idea of breaking a law, and paying the penalty. I assume he'd rather follow a law, regardless of penalty, but I wonder exactly how much leeway he gives himself.

 

Will his minion, for example, suffer the penalty for attempted murder?

[Twenty@20]

Will his minion, for example, suffer the penalty for attempted murder?

I thought the minion's crime was not having proper documentation to execute Gawx not the attempted murder itself. Azir clearly allows constables to execute thieves if a leave of execution is obtained. Its like riding a train with ticket. If you don't have one pay a fine and get an on-the-spot ticket. (Poor analogy I admit. Can't think of a better one)

A point I want to raise is regarding selective implementation of laws. A private citizen only needs to follow laws that directly affects him. A constable on the other hand, is legally bound to ensure all laws are obeyed under his jurisdiction. Catching thieves while ignoring other criminals is kind of abetting them.

I also wonder whether it is lawful for the police to have any hidden agenda or personal motive when going after criminals? Shouldn't they act without malice or bias? If a constable has personal vendetta against the criminal he caught, isn't there a risk of miscarriage of justice?

[Aleksiel]

Aleksiel: That is one philosophy, but not the only one. I wonder which one Nale is. He can clearly wrap his mind around the idea of breaking a law, and paying the penalty. I assume he'd rather follow a law, regardless of penalty, but I wonder exactly how much leeway he gives himself.

 

Will his minion, for example, suffer the penalty for attempted murder?

 

I don't read Nale as someone who would give himself a leeway or ever exploit a hole in a law, but I suppose we'll wait and see about that.

 

I agree with Twenty@20 that the minion's crime wasn't attempted murder. Don't judge what happened based on your country's law or personal view, but think about what we learned in the chapter about Azir. Any trespasser during a session of the Holy Conclave can be executed, however some papers have to be filled first. So the minion is not guilty of attempted murder, but administrative violation according to the law. I know, it doesn't seem right to us, but Roshar is a very different world with very different cultures.

 

 

I also wonder whether it is lawful for the police to have any hidden agenda or personal motive when going after criminals? Shouldn't they act without malice or bias? If a constable has personal vendetta against the criminal he caught, isn't there a risk of miscarriage of justice?

 

I would say it depends. After all, police officers aren't allowed on investigations that directly affect them, their relatives, partners, family, and friends; so there are some precautions taken to assure one won't be biased.

 

On any other cases if a police officer has his/her personal feelings under control and acts according to the law without violating the rights of the suspect/criminal, then it makes no difference. How can you protect the law and the innocent without having at least some form of a grudge against certain criminals? I don't think it's possible. But feeling malice doesn't equal acting on it.

[Twenty@20]

.

.

On any other cases if a police officer has his/her personal feelings under control and acts according to the law without violating the rights of the suspect/criminal, then it makes no difference. How can you protect the law and the innocent without having at least some form of a grudge against certain criminals? I don't think it's possible. But feeling malice doesn't equal acting on it.

I thought Nalan actually displayed a bias against Lift because of his personal motivation to kill surgebinders. Lift was not alone guilty of trespassing and thieving at the place. Yet Nalan exclusively got a leave of execution for Lift while ignoring Gawx and the other adult thieves.(They even escaped under his nose)

This brings me back to my other point regarding selective implementation of laws. If Nalan is choosing which law to apply where and which criminal to apprehend, then isn't he subverting the laws for his own interests and convenience?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Twenty@20

[kaellok]

@ Twenty.  Yes, he is subverting the law through selective implementation.  However, unless selective implementation of the law itself is against the law, then it doesn't actually create any sort of moral quandary or paradox for someone whose primary Ideal is to obey the law.  If it's to obey the law above all else, well, that becomes problematic, as he clearly has another goal that is more important than the law, or else he would have taken the extra work needed to deal with Gawx and associates (there is no reason to suspect that Nale thought Lift would be alone, so only doing the paperwork necessary for Lift shows a bias; a bias means that the law is not the utmost form being obeyed; insert moral quandary here.)

 

It's likely, though, that being a Herald he isn't held to the same Ideals as the Radiants were.  While he may believe in obeying the law, and believes that it is more important to obey the law than to "do what is right," that's a far cry from thinking that it's the most important thing ever, and to be upheld no matter what.  So, while Skybreakers are Lawful Neutral (obey the law above all else), he could quite easily fall in the Lawful Evil category (using laws and policies for his own benefit, even if he is unable to make or alter them.)

[Aleksiel]

I thought Nalan actually displayed a bias against Lift because of his personal motivation to kill surgebinders. Lift was not alone guilty of trespassing and thieving at the place. Yet Nalan exclusively got a leave of execution for Lift while ignoring Gawx and the other adult thieves.(They even escaped under his nose)

This brings me back to my other point regarding selective implementation of laws. If Nalan is choosing which law to apply where and which criminal to apprehend, then isn't he subverting the laws for his own interests and convenience?

 

He went after Lift, his minions got Gawx. I doubt even Nale can catch every criminal, so he missed the adults. Or more likely Lift was priority since in his mind she is a danger to the whole world and a few lowly thieves aren't Nale's main concern. He could always deal with them later, but Lift's been escaping him for some time. He couldn't split himself in two halves to follow both her and the others. 

 

I suppose you can look at it as having specialization. Some police officers go after thieves, others fight corruption, third deal with serial killers. Nale investigates surgbinders. Whether you call it bias or not is up to you.

[Twenty@20]

He went after Lift, his minions got Gawx. I doubt even Nale can catch every criminal, so he missed the adults. Or more likely Lift was priority since in his mind she is a danger to the whole world and a few lowly thieves aren't Nale's main concern. He could always deal with them later, but Lift's been escaping him for some time. He couldn't split himself in two halves to follow both her and the others.

I suppose you can look at it as having specialization. Some police officers go after thieves, others fight corruption, third deal with serial killers. Nale investigates surgbinders. Whether you call it bias or not is up to you.

I have to disagree on this point. Surgebinding is not unlawful in Azir. So why should Nalan as a constable of Azir investigate Surgebinders. Legally he can't even arrest Lift on a charge of surgebinding. Under the provisions of Azir law, he was there only to arrest thieves. So he should have atleast made an attempt to catch the others. Nalan and his minions were completely fixated on catching Lift and ensuring she doesn't escape. Gawx was infact apprehended by palace guards. Under the law, Gawx and the adult thieves were equally guilty as Lift. So I think Nalan's bias against Lift was unlawful since he was acting as a representative of Azir law. Rather his willful neglect of other criminals was unlawful.

If Nalan was acting in his personal capacity of a Herald, then the situation would have been different. He was free to kill Lift if he thought it necessary. Of course then he would have to submit himself to Azir law for unlawful murder.

[Moogle]

I would say it depends. After all, police officers aren't allowed on investigations that directly affect them, their relatives, partners, family, and friends; so there are some precautions taken to assure one won't be biased.

 

This might be a rule on Earth, but I doubt they're quite that far along on Roshar.

 

@ Twenty.  Yes, he is subverting the law through selective implementation.  However, unless selective implementation of the law itself is against the law, then it doesn't actually create any sort of moral quandary or paradox for someone whose primary Ideal is to obey the law.  If it's to obey the law above all else, well, that becomes problematic, as he clearly has another goal that is more important than the law, or else he would have taken the extra work needed to deal with Gawx and associates (there is no reason to suspect that Nale thought Lift would be alone, so only doing the paperwork necessary for Lift shows a bias; a bias means that the law is not the utmost form being obeyed; insert moral quandary here.)

 

I disagree that putting the law above else means Skybreakers have to enforce the law for everyone. I'd read the Ideal "I will put the law above all else" as meaning you will never in any circumstance willingly violate a law. I don't think Szeth is going to be going around harassing people who litter, for example, if he sees it happening in the midst of fighting the Voidbringers. (He's just not allowed to litter himself, if that's Shin(? is it restricted solely to Shinovar) law.)

 

As far as I know, there's no law that requires non-police officers to attempt to apprehend criminals. And they might not even exist for constables in Azir.

 

@General idea of Nalan exploiting loopholes:

I completely believe Nalan would be willing to exploit the heck out of places where the law falls short. If the law uses language that somehow manages to exclude people eating ice cream from counting as victims when murdered, I could completely see him casually handing someone an ice cream cone and then killing them. I also imagine he's got associates in a number of positions in justice systems across the world so he can get the Rosharan equivalent of a warrant whenever he wants for anything, despite that being perhaps a touch unethical.

 

I have to disagree on this point. Surgebinding is not unlawful in Azir. So why should Nalan as a constable of Azir investigate Surgebinders. Legally he can't even arrest Lift on a charge of surgebinding. Under the provisions of Azir law, he was there only to arrest thieves. So he should have atleast made an attempt to catch the others.

 

Why? Is there a law that forces all constables of Azir to work towards capturing every sort of criminal equally? Is there a law that says, "constables are not allowed to unfairly target certain minority groups"? "If a constable has reason to suspect there are criminals in a certain area, he must attempt to capture them"?

 

You seem to be applying your own notions of justice and what's fair to Rosharan law, which is definitely medieval in more than a few places. (Slaves are legal!)

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle

[Aleksiel]

This might be a rule on Earth, but I doubt they're quite that far along on Roshar.

 

I suppose you are right, the example wasn't quite adapted to Roshar's reality, but I didn't think of a better way to translate my idea.

 

 

I have to disagree on this point. Surgebinding is not unlawful in Azir. So why should Nalan as a constable of Azir investigate Surgebinders. Legally he can't even arrest Lift on a charge of surgebinding. Under the provisions of Azir law, he was there only to arrest thieves. So he should have atleast made an attempt to catch the others. Nalan and his minions were completely fixated on catching Lift and ensuring she doesn't escape. Gawx was infact apprehended by palace guards. Under the law, Gawx and the adult thieves were equally guilty as Lift. So I think Nalan's bias against Lift was unlawful since he was acting as a representative of Azir law. Rather his willful neglect of other criminals was unlawful.

 

Surgebinding is not illegal, but there probably aren't any regulations on something that hasn't been around for millenniums. Why shouldn't a constable in any country investigate any particular group so long as the law doesn't prohibit it? Nale is not punishing anyone on the accusation of being a surgebinder, he's particularly investigating surgebinders and executes punishments for their crimes in accordance to the local law. Nalan has made himself and his minions a specialized force for fighting surgebinders' crimes, which doesn't seem to be illegal. Kal would probably welcome a police group focused on investigating lighteyes. I am not under the impression Nale feels any malice towards surgebinders, he's doing what he sees best withing his legal power.

 

 

 

If Nalan was acting in his personal capacity of a Herald, then the situation would have been different. He was free to kill Lift if he thought it necessary. Of course then he would have to submit himself to Azir law for unlawful murder.

 

I don't understand the point you want to make here. Nale has no legal power as a Herald to my knowledge and illegally killing is against what he's supposed to represent.

[kaellok]

My laptop continues to hate these forums, I think it's missing some crucial update.  Perhaps I shall try defenestrating it later today.  Anyway, @Moogle's reply to my comment:

 

I did not mean that Nale is required to uphold every law at all times always, I meant that he is deliberately choosing which laws he enforces and against whom in order to achieve his own goal--and that his goal is not upholding the laws.  But since he is a Herald, he isn't bound to the same Ideal as the Radiant Skybreakers were, so he hasn't actually violated anything that we are aware of. 

[Twenty@20]

Nale is not punishing anyone on the accusation of being a surgebinder, he's particularly investigating surgebinders and executes punishments for their crimes in accordance to the local law. Nalan has made himself and his minions a specialized force for fighting surgebinders' crimes, which doesn't seem to be illegal.

Your argument looks convincing. So Nalan's targeting of Lift probably falls within legal parameters.

Personally however I find myself agreeing with kaellok's line of reasoning. To quote Zahel, it allows me to sleep at night (OK, I am exaggerating).

@ Moogle. I wasn't talking about the Skybreakers. I was only trying to analyse the action of a Azir constable. Lets assume, for example, a squad of constables find a group of thief stealing. Then I would reasonably expect that they atleast try to catch all of them instead of focusing on only one of the thieves and by default letting the rest excape. Not doing that would be neglect of duty I think. Anyway in this specific case, Nalan may have been legally right but only on technical grounds.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

My laptop continues to hate these forums, I think it's missing some crucial update.  Perhaps I shall try defenestrating it later today.  Anyway, @Moogle's reply to my comment:

 

I did not mean that Nale is required to uphold every law at all times always, I meant that he is deliberately choosing which laws he enforces and against whom in order to achieve his own goal--and that his goal is not upholding the laws.  But since he is a Herald, he isn't bound to the same Ideal as the Radiant Skybreakers were, so he hasn't actually violated anything that we are aware of. 

 

Sorry, looking back at it, I worded my point rather poorly. I was trying to say that I don't even think the Skybreaker's second Ideal is being broken by Nalan. As long as they don't break laws, I think the Skybreakers are welcome to do whatever they want, including selectively upholding it. At least for their second Ideal; later Ideals may have to do with applying all laws fairly. Their Ideal is "I will put the law above all else", not "I will uphold and enforce the law everywhere". My interpretation is that this means Skybreakers cannot willingly break a law, whereas I think you're arguing that it means Skybreakers have to uphold/enforce the law.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle

[kaellok]

That's very close to what I'm meaning.  What I mean is that I think that the Skybreaker's Second Ideal is that the Law is the most important thing to them.  The Stonewards have their impossible and suicidal defensive tasks, the Windrunners have their protecting people, and the Skybreakers have the Law.  I don't think that Nalan upholds this, even though he is clearly acting only within legal means.  Although, because he doesn't kill Lift, there's a strong argument to be made that he is still upholding the Second Ideal even so--but he seems to be violating the spirit of it (but, given his Heraldness, that doesn't necessarily matter.)

[Twenty@20]

Their Ideal is "I will put the law above all else", not "I will uphold and enforce the law everywhere".

I don't want to nitpit but I personally think that "I will put the law above all else" is just an elegant way of saying "I will uphold and enforce the law to the best of my abilities." Only personally following the law and not enforcing it on others kind of makes it meaningless. But, anyway, that's my personal opinion only.

Edit: I again have to concur with kaellok regarding following the laws in both letter and spirit. I had made the same point in another thread. Upvote for you!

Edited November 13, 2014 by Twenty@20

[Moogle]

I don't want to nitpit but I personally think that "I will put the law above all else" is just an elegant way of saying "I will uphold and enforce the law to the best of my abilities." Only personally following the law and not enforcing it on others kind of makes it meaningless. But, anyway, that's my personal opinion only.

Edit: I again have to concur with kaellok regarding following the laws in both letter and spirit. I had made the same point in another thread. Upvote for you!

 

I guess we'll have to see what it ends up meaning in the books! It's hard to say with so little information.

 

To further expand on my reasoning: from a young age, Kaladin has desired to protect people. It's always been his thing, as it were. Dalinar, since Gavilar's death, has wanted to unite people. Szeth, though, has never desired to enforce the law on others, just hold to it himself. Perhaps my reasoning is off, because Szeth is ostensibly being brought to Shinovar by Nale to bring justice to the leaders of the Shin, but Szeth just hasn't seem to have had those urges, really.

 

In regards to your comment on only personally following the law making it meaningless, Kaladin only protects people himself. He doesn't force others to protect others. (Though you might argue his later Ideals on leadership might have him do that.) His protecting of others is still meaningful, I feel. I know it's not an exact correlation to the Skybreaker's Second Ideal, but I hope I'm getting my feelings across on that.

 

Even if the Second Ideal is as you and kaellok are interpreting it as, I wouldn't say Nalan is breaking it, even in spirit. Kaladin's oath to protect those who cannot protect themselves does not mean he needs to seek out people to protect, even when we he knows people are being harmed nearby. Similarly, swearing to enforce the law doesn't mean you need to look for and find lawbreakers everywhere.

 

I agree it is a strong possibility that Nalan may be violating the spirit of the Ideal, but then again maybe he isn't. It is hard to say without the third book.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Moogle