Azimir's battle

[Xabben]

I've read many post critizicing the fact that, in WaT, the coallition didn't even thought about destroying the oathgate in Azimir to avoid the singers' invasion. However, for me, this is not a real plothole, as I doubt that physically destroying the Oathgate would have prevented the inksprens from transporting the singers from shadesmar into the physhical world if they wanted to.

 

What really bothers me is that the Azish could have easily built a totally closed, thick bronze dome around the oathgate's control room. By doing so, they would have completely trapped singers and gained a considerable amount of time. In fact, they could have built multiple concentric domes by using soulcasting to hinder the advance of singers even more. Why didn't they thought about this?

[Returned he/him]

I think that the major issues are that it may not have been possible (that's a lot of soulcasting to do, especially all at once), it may not have been effective (the Fused likely have options for dealing with the bronze, including but not limited to Deepest Ones, and might not have been delayed much at all), it creates a fortified beachhead for the Fused invaders to use against the defenders (they eventually built their own fortification in the Oathgate complex, though on a smaller scale), and it changes the strategic picture (they know the point of invasion and general invader strategy with the Oathgate open, but if sealed this way the Fused might have done something else; they would not have left Azimir alone).

The in-universe explanation for why they didn't do it is because the characters know it wouldn't have worked, for one reason or another (even if that reason isn't expressed on the page). The narrative reason is that it was important that Azimir be a major battleground, so the invasion would have proceeded somehow no matter what the humans did. Fortifying around the Oathgate to resist the invaders is what the defenders did anyways, so it's not quite a total strategic oversight, and they were successful in the end (well, kind of...). I, personally, am satisfied with an explanation that the soulcasting (even ignoring the cost in Light and adequate gemstones to actually do it) would have been prohibitively difficult to do with the time and resources they had available.

Edited 9 hours ago by Returned

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Xabben said:

I've read many post critizicing the fact that, in WaT, the coallition didn't even thought about destroying the oathgate in Azimir to avoid the singers' invasion. However, for me, this is not a real plothole, as I doubt that physically destroying the Oathgate would have prevented the inksprens from transporting the singers from shadesmar into the physhical world if they wanted to.

Locking it actually. Though they can be destroyed, and that would have prevented travel rather easily.

4 hours ago, Xabben said:

What really bothers me is that the Azish could have easily built a totally closed, thick bronze dome around the oathgate's control room. By doing so, they would have completely trapped singers and gained a considerable amount of time. In fact, they could have built multiple concentric domes by using soulcasting to hinder the advance of singers even more. Why didn't they thought about this?

Or just fifteen foot think walls, that would have done it easily.

There really is no in world reason for them to not have done this.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I think that the major issues are that it may not have been possible (that's a lot of soulcasting to do, especially all at once)

They make entire barracks in one go with soulcasting

3 hours ago, Returned said:

it may not have been effective (the Fused likely have options for dealing with the bronze, including but not limited to Deepest Ones, and might not have been delayed much at all)

Deepest ones can go through stone, but not bronze. And even if they could that's still only 1/1000 the force you have to fight.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

They make entire barracks in one go with soulcasting

I'm not sure of the dimensions of a barrack relative to the Oathgate, nor the thickness of the walls. I feel comfortable assuming that a dome covering the Oathgate would be massively taller than any barracks on the Shattered Plains, and the walls certainly aren't 15 feet thick. The cost in Light is also a factor, though also a frustratingly unclear one in this application. Gemstones crack, available Light is consumed by Radiants, it's not unreasonable to think it might be possible that there would not be enough resources to perform such a large-scale task. Not knowing the scale makes it hard for me to be fully confident in saying this definitely is so, but it seems reasonable to me that this might be more than they could confidently do in the time available.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Deepest ones can go through stone, but not bronze. And even if they could that's still only 1/1000 the force you have to fight.

Do you have a citation on this? My understanding is that they can move through any solid object that was never living matter, not that they have some special ability to interact with stone only. If you have information more precise than that I'd appreciate the chance to learn it. The Deepest Ones were just an example of the dome not being impervious, there are other ways it could be melted through, chipped through, blasted apart, or carved through with Shardblades. Or Odium's forces might have just come through another way, if the Oathgate were made prohibitively expensive to deal with.

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Returned said:

I'm not sure of the dimensions of a barrack relative to the Oathgate, nor the thickness of the walls. I feel comfortable assuming that a dome covering the Oathgate would be massively taller than any barracks on the Shattered Plains, and the walls certainly aren't 15 feet thick. The cost in Light is also a factor, though also a frustratingly unclear one in this application. Gemstones crack, available Light is consumed by Radiants, it's not unreasonable to think it might be possible that there would not be enough resources to perform such a large-scale task. Not knowing the scale makes it hard for me to be fully confident in saying this definitely is so, but it seems reasonable to me that this might be more than they could confidently do in the time available.

Even just being able to do half of it would have been a massive advantage.

6 minutes ago, Returned said:

Do you have a citation on this? My understanding is that they can move through any solid object that was never living matter, not that they have some special ability to interact with stone only.

If it was any non-living matter then the swords/spears the Alethi warriors used against them wouldn't do anything as they would just pass through them.

7 minutes ago, Returned said:

The Deepest Ones were just an example of the dome not being impervious, there are other ways it could be melted through, chipped through, blasted apart, or carved through with Shardblades.

That's true, but all of those methods require moving the bronze, which takes a lot of time. They don't have to kill a single enemy, only stall until the ten days are up.

8 minutes ago, Returned said:

Or Odium's forces might have just come through another way, if the Oathgate were made prohibitively expensive to deal with.

I'm not sure what other way would be available to them. And even if there was the characters don't know of any.

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

 

2 hours ago, Returned said:

I'm not sure of the dimensions of a barrack relative to the Oathgate, nor the thickness of the walls. I feel comfortable assuming that a dome covering the Oathgate would be massively taller than any barracks on the Shattered Plains, and the walls certainly aren't 15 feet thick. The cost in Light is also a factor, though also a frustratingly unclear one in this application. Gemstones crack, available Light is consumed by Radiants, it's not unreasonable to think it might be possible that there would not be enough resources to perform such a large-scale task. Not knowing the scale makes it hard for me to be fully confident in saying this definitely is so, but it seems reasonable to me that this might be more than they could confidently do in the time available.

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Even just being able to do half of it would have been a massive advantage.

2 hours ago, Returned said:

Do you have a citation on this? My understanding is that they can move through any solid object that was never living matter, not that they have some special ability to interact with stone only.

If it was any non-living matter then the swords/spears the Alethi warriors used against them wouldn't do anything as they would just pass through them.

 

Pretty sure they mention using aluminum specifically to stop Deepest ones, which would make no sense if they could only move through stone, considering its rarity.