The best Invested unit

[The White Drake]

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

1. Your making a big deal out of the IRE from 300 years ago. Just because that's what they had to do then doesn't mean that's what has to happen now.

Unless you can find some evidence otherwise...

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

2. Just having investiture doesn't explain it actually, as otherwise Marasi had no reason to draw the Elendel Basin, or Riina to draw Lunar. Likewise it also leaves unexplained how Marasi's glow "stabilized, and then brightened" (TLM chapter 54). She shouldn't brighten if she only had access to the same level of power.

I think you mean Shai, not Marasi. And Aons are drawn based on geography, so it makes perfect sense they would have to do that. For the 'stabilized, then brightened', I'd assume that's the Soulstamp getting a grip. You're pushing a very specific idea on a thin basis here.

6 hours ago, Frustration said:

3. The key word in that WoB is "currently."

I noted that already. I checked the date and cross-referenced it with publication dates before posting. It is an Era 2 WoB (though not post Lost Metal). This would mean you're assuming they overcame something 'integral to the workings of Cosmere magic' in a period of five years based off the fluctuation in light level of an artificial Elantrian's skin.

I'm afraid WoB and book beat theory. It was a nice theory, but directly contradicted by both. They can't draw Dor directly from offworld.

Edited Sunday at 06:36 PM by The White Drake

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Unless you can find some evidence otherwise...

I've listed it.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I think you mean Shai, not Marasi. 

Yeah, lol.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

And Aons are drawn based on geography, so it makes perfect sense they would have to do that. 

Arelon's geography. There is no large concentration of Dor on Scadrial or Lunar to tune to the geography of those planets, and thus no reason for an Elantrian to draw them.

Indeed as we can see when they draw other aons, they use the standard shape based on Arelon.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

For the 'stabilized, then brightened', I'd assume that's the Soulstamp getting a grip. You're pushing a very specific idea on a thin basis here.

The glow stabilized and the brightened specifically after she drew the basin, which as an Aon did nothing else.

And besides that doesn't fit with what we know of soulstamps.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I noted that already. I checked the date and cross-referenced it with publication dates before posting. It is an Era 2 WoB (though not post Lost Metal). This would mean you're assuming they overcame something 'integral to the workings of Cosmere magic' in a period of five years based off the fluctuation in light level of an artificial Elantrian's skin.

I'm afraid WoB and book beat theory. It was a nice theory, but directly contradicted by both. They can't draw Dor directly from offworld.

It's not contradicted by either.

[The White Drake]

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

I've listed it.

No, you've provided theories. Theories alone lose out to what we see in a book, 300 years back or no.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

Arelon's geography. There is no large concentration of Dor on Scadrial or Lunar to tune to the geography of those planets, and thus no reason for an Elantrian to draw them.

Indeed as we can see when they draw other aons, they use the standard shape based on Arelon.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

The glow stabilized and the brightened specifically after she drew the basin, which as an Aon did nothing else.

And besides that doesn't fit with what we know of soulstamps.

This is still just speculation, including the assumption that the map Aon is drawn to tune to Investiture (it's more likely the 'hacking the system' Brandon has referred to that's necessary to get AonDor to work offworld at all). A geographical Aon and a light level fluctuation is not evidence of an inter-system Cognitive realm Investiture Connection.

On 7/5/2026 at 3:45 PM, Frustration said:

It's not contradicted by either.

What. I gave you a WoB asking directly if exactly what you were saying is possible, and the answer was no. I don't see how a contradiction can be any more clear.

'No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive.'

[Frustration]

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

No, you've provided theories. Theories alone lose out to what we see in a book, 300 years back or no.

Even assuming it was a theory it wouldn't lose out, because the basis of it is that development occurred during those 300 years.

Saying that 300 years ago it was impossible does not mean that it currently is.

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

This is still just speculation, including the assumption that the map Aon is drawn to tune to Investiture (it's more likely the 'hacking the system' Brandon has referred to that's necessary to get AonDor to work offworld at all). A geographical Aon and a light level fluctuation is not evidence of an inter-system Cognitive realm Investiture Connection.

It is itself AonDor, and thus cannot function as you claim. And even if it was it wouldn't cause Shai's glow to brighten. The only thing we've seen do that is when the IRE drank some of the dor they piped over.

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

12 hours ago, The White Drake said:

What. I gave you a WoB asking directly if exactly what you were saying is possible, and the answer was no. I don't see how a contradiction can be any more clear.

'No, you cannot currently access the Dor anywhere else. The Dor is a big part of why magic on Sel is distinctive.'

I already explained how it didn't contradict. Brandon said that it was not currently possible in 2015.

In 2021 we saw it happen.

That is a six year time gap for Brandon to change his mind, or simply to allow the Elantrians to develop new techniques.

Six years ago we would have said that it was not currently possible for a computer program to create an image good enough to fool a human into believing it. Quoting someone saying that would not prove AI to be fake.

We've seen it happen, AonDor was used to connect Shai to a larger source of Dor while off world. Saying that it was not possible six years ago does not prove otherwise.

[BinarySecond]

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, BinarySecond said:

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

Only for the soulstamp, she used it all just for the transformation.

[The White Drake]

2 hours ago, BinarySecond said:

Didn't Shai use investiture that had been brought to Scadrial rather than tapping into the Dor directly?

Yes. Frustration has yet to back up his claims otherwise.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Only for the soulstamp, she used it all just for the transformation.

Evidence? She didn't even dip her stamp in it.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

I've given you multiple possible explanations. You're bending over backwards in an attempt to stick specifically to yours in the face of multiple pieces of evidence otherwise.

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

Even assuming it was a theory it wouldn't lose out, because the basis of it is that development occurred during those 300 years.

Saying that 300 years ago it was impossible does not mean that it currently is.

It is itself AonDor, and thus cannot function as you claim. And even if it was it wouldn't cause Shai's glow to brighten. The only thing we've seen do that is when the IRE drank some of the dor they piped over.

A connection to a larger source of the dor in some way is the only thing that explains what we saw in the text. The fact that you have to try so hard to come up with an alternative explanation should show us that this is the simplest answer.

I already explained how it didn't contradict. Brandon said that it was not currently possible in 2015.

In 2021 we saw it happen.

That is a six year time gap for Brandon to change his mind, or simply to allow the Elantrians to develop new techniques.

Six years ago we would have said that it was not currently possible for a computer program to create an image good enough to fool a human into believing it. Quoting someone saying that would not prove AI to be fake.

We've seen it happen, AonDor was used to connect Shai to a larger source of Dor while off world. Saying that it was not possible six years ago does not prove otherwise.

What....

Let me hammer out the facts.

1. Shai stamped herself

2. She absorbed the jar of Dor as she transformed

3. Her glow wavered

4. She drew a Aon of the Basin, and her glow stabilized.

Those are the facts. To say this means she connected to the Dor on Sel is pure theorycrafting. We are shown 300 years ago and told 5 years ago this isn't a thing. To overcome those statements- to prove your theory even without them- you need evidence. Thus far you've just been repeating your theory and claiming it as fact. So I will ask you again. Can you provide any basis beyond mere speculation that Shai established an inter-system Investiture-drawing Connection to Sel's Cognitive Realm?

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I've given you multiple possible explanations. You're bending over backwards in an attempt to stick specifically to yours in the face of multiple pieces of evidence otherwise.

And none of them are even possible let alone explain what happened. Soulstamps don't need AonDor to connect to people, and a hack to allow AonDor to be used off world wouldn't cause her glow to return.

The only thing that we have seen cause an Elantrian's glow to return was consuming dor. None of your explanations have satisfied that.

The simplest answer is often true, occum's razor dictates that somehow a connection to the Dor or some other source of investiture capable of powering AonDor was made.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Evidence? She didn't even dip her stamp in it.

The entire jar was used up on the transformation and her glow instantly started to fade. As we saw in SH if Elantrians have extra investiture they will continue to glow.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

Those are the facts. To say this means she connected to the Dor on Sel is pure theorycrafting. We are shown 300 years ago and told 5 years ago this isn't a thing. To overcome those statements- to prove your theory even without them- you need evidence. Thus far you've just been repeating your theory and claiming it as fact. So I will ask you again. Can you provide any basis beyond mere speculation that Shai established an inter-system Investiture-drawing Connection to Sel's Cognitive Realm?

First off maybe take a step back for a second, you're getting rather heated.

Secondly it isn't speculation, as it is the only explanation for what we saw. Nothing else even comes close. Additional proof is not needed the scene is itself the proof.

Any attempt would have to resolve three problems:

1. Why Shai was so prepared for that specific Aon, as seen by her removing the map for it before the transformation.

2. Why Shai preprogrammed drawing that Aon into the soulstamp, as seen by her not remembering having drawn it.

3. Why her glow not only stabilized but increased afterwards, which so far only an increase in investiture has managed to do.

Only one explanation manages to reconcile them all.

[Mystic He/Him]

Gonna pop in and add something else that doesn’t seem to have been brought up. (I don’t have my books on my right now so I’ll edit in specific chapters later)

In Emperor’s soul, Shai says that her soul stamps for herself will only last 24 hours.

TLM

Spoiler

When Marasi goes to refuse being a Ghostblood, the offer Kelsier gives her is to track down moonlight and get her back.

I don’t remember the exact words but it was something about how he had lost his best operative and something needed to be done in order to get her back

That is not at all consistent with what we know of Soulstamps. Even assuming Shai would’ve made a better soul stamp than she has before, she wouldv’e been back to herself in less than 48 hours.

The only explanation for why this particular soul stamp seems to be never failing was if there’s an outside source of investiture continually providing it so that the transformation takes place. That requires a connection to Sel and the Dor, otherwise it would just be a matter of waiting till the investiture ran out.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

And none of them are even possible let alone explain what happened. Soulstamps don't need AonDor to connect to people, and a hack to allow AonDor to be used off world wouldn't cause her glow to return.

The only thing that we have seen cause an Elantrian's glow to return was consuming dor. None of your explanations have satisfied that.

The simplest answer is often true, occum's razor dictates that somehow a connection to the Dor or some other source of investiture capable of powering AonDor was made.

The entire jar was used up on the transformation and her glow instantly started to fade. As we saw in SH if Elantrians have extra investiture they will continue to glow.

First off maybe take a step back for a second, you're getting rather heated.

Secondly it isn't speculation, as it is the only explanation for what we saw. Nothing else even comes close. Additional proof is not needed the scene is itself the proof.

Any attempt would have to resolve three problems:

1. Why Shai was so prepared for that specific Aon, as seen by her removing the map for it before the transformation.

2. Why Shai preprogrammed drawing that Aon into the soulstamp, as seen by her not remembering having drawn it.

3. Why her glow not only stabilized but increased afterwards, which so far only an increase in investiture has managed to do.

Only one explanation manages to reconcile them all.

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

59 minutes ago, Mystic said:

Gonna pop in and add something else that doesn’t seem to have been brought up. (I don’t have my books on my right now so I’ll edit in specific chapters later)

In Emperor’s soul, Shai says that her soul stamps for herself will only last 24 hours.

TLM

  Reveal hidden contents

When Marasi goes to refuse being a Ghostblood, the offer Kelsier gives her is to track down moonlight and get her back.

I don’t remember the exact words but it was something about how he had lost his best operative and something needed to be done in order to get her back

That is not at all consistent with what we know of Soulstamps. Even assuming Shai would’ve made a better soul stamp than she has before, she wouldv’e been back to herself in less than 48 hours.

The only explanation for why this particular soul stamp seems to be never failing was if there’s an outside source of investiture continually providing it so that the transformation takes place. That requires a connection to Sel and the Dor, otherwise it would just be a matter of waiting till the investiture ran out.

Got an answer for you.

Love-that-dog

Why won't Moonlight's stamp wear off by itself?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an excellent question. The answer is—it might someday. But the other question is—it's been a spell. Depending on where I time these things, it's either been hundreds of years or decades since... Moonlight has had a lot of time to practice with powers and investigate what's possible in the Cosmere with magic and talk to some of the smartest people in the Cosmere about how it works. You should draw from the way the soulstamps work, the more mundane ones, that Shai has made a ton of progress in pushing forward the art of Forgery.

[Mystic He/Him]

13 minutes ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

Got an answer for you.

Love-that-dog

Why won't Moonlight's stamp wear off by itself?

Brandon Sanderson

This is an excellent question. The answer is—it might someday. But the other question is—it's been a spell. Depending on where I time these things, it's either been hundreds of years or decades since... Moonlight has had a lot of time to practice with powers and investigate what's possible in the Cosmere with magic and talk to some of the smartest people in the Cosmere about how it works. You should draw from the way the soulstamps work, the more mundane ones, that Shai has made a ton of progress in pushing forward the art of Forgery.

Okay, what I understand that to mean is that Moonlight has a better understanding of soulstamps and somehow that knowledge allows her to make a near-infinite lasting soulstamps.

We’re not told what that info is though, so I don’t think it confirms or denies the theory. 

I think that there is still the original problem Shai brought up that people change over time, which makes the soul stamp less effective over time. I’m honestly not sure how that even could be prevented. How would you prevent someone from changing over time?

Brandon said that there is the possibility that she might change back. But that could be referring either to fact that they grow less effective(not my opinion as he says “might” but could be it) or, if we take the theory to be true, that something could interfere with the connection. 

I don’t think that it goes either way though. I can see both being possible. I should find the exact quotes for earlier though, it might help 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up), but you seem to miss my point.

This is THEORY.

I am asking for PROOF.

An explanation- no matter how solid you believe it to be- is not proof. Feel free to theorize, but do not claim definitive proof without it.

The scene is the proof.

Just as I do not need to prove that soulstamps can make someone an Elantrian outside of that scene, I likewise do not need to prove that Elantrians can connect themselves to some form of investiture to power themselves. That was already demonstrated.

2 hours ago, The White Drake said:

I could quibble on some of this (notably, the 'hacking' explanation covers all three points you bring up),

It explains the first two, but not the third, as no additional investiture would have come from that.

Likewise that explanation is impossible as it was itself an Aon that was used. Any hack needed to make AonDor work cannot rely on AonDor already working in order to function.

[The White Drake]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

It explains the first two, but not the third, as no additional investiture would have come from that.

Likewise that explanation is impossible as it was itself an Aon that was used. Any hack needed to make AonDor work cannot rely on AonDor already working in order to function.

You assume solely an Investiture infusion can brighten an Elantrian, as opposed to, say, a disconnect with the local geography due to the highly locational nature of their powers.

That second point falls apart, as it was not one of Arelon's Aons. I have a theory that it works like a translator, to get Aons working away from their geographic locale by managing between them and the new terrain, but that seems a topic for it's own topic.

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

The scene is the proof.

Just as I do not need to prove that soulstamps can make someone an Elantrian outside of that scene, I likewise do not need to prove that Elantrians can connect themselves to some form of investiture to power themselves. That was already demonstrated.

For the last time... no such thing is demonstrated. You merely theorize from observing. Proof is if you can find something- in the text, in a WoB, anywhere- that says 'yes, that was what was happening'.

And I am afraid there can be no proof, because...

Jofwu

Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked.

 

This really derailed the topic and took a while, but we have a definite, absolute answer. Sanderson gave it a mere 17 days after The Lost Metal was released.

[SpiritOfWrath he/him]

Say that we didn’t have a way to move Elantrians.

 

HOWEVER

What if we moved the Dor?

The entirety of Elantrian power is immense. I propose we create a Death Star like structure that could navigate through space and carries many, many Elantrians.

Sure it would require a lot of time to figure out, but we have the power of TWO SHARDS.

 

The biggest problem, then, is the Dor. It prolly weighs a whole ton.

But perhaps not. Because the actual Shard is not the body of investiture—it’s Connected to it. Right? Referring to how Shards are limited in the amount of Investiture they can exert at once.

 

But the Shards are infused in the Cognitive space of Sel, yk? So—after the Elantrians wipe out all resistance on the planet, they create an air-tight temperature controlled environment bit by bit around the entire planet. This would take a good amount of time, but I think it’s possible. Each Elantrian would secure ~45000 square miles. If they took 10 square miles a day each, it would take a decade or so to prepare Sel for space travel. Propulsion would be simple once the Aons were figured out—though they could make it more and more complicated depending on what they need and how much time they are willing to dedicate. They would probably need the bulk of their forces to do so, but it’s a worthy sacrifice, I think.

 

That is the best thing to do.

[Frustration]

20 hours ago, The White Drake said:

You assume solely an Investiture infusion can brighten an Elantrian, as opposed to, say, a disconnect with the local geography due to the highly locational nature of their powers.

That second point falls apart, as it was not one of Arelon's Aons. I have a theory that it works like a translator, to get Aons working away from their geographic locale by managing between them and the new terrain, but that seems a topic for it's own topic.

For the last time... no such thing is demonstrated. You merely theorize from observing. Proof is if you can find something- in the text, in a WoB, anywhere- that says 'yes, that was what was happening'.

And I am afraid there can be no proof, because...

Jofwu

Why did Shay-I have to draw a map of the Elendel basin, if the jar of Dor was her source of Investiture? Did the map connect her to another source of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

No, the map didn't, but her magic is still wonky. Selish magic has some wonkiness to it and it needs to be tricked.

 

This really derailed the topic and took a while, but we have a definite, absolute answer. Sanderson gave it a mere 17 days after The Lost Metal was released.

Huh, that's interesting.

That still doesn't explain to me why she glowed more, but I guess I'll have to accept that.

I'd still take Elantrians, the few resource problems are more than made up for by instantly winning.

[The White Drake]

So it would be less of a battlefield contest, and more of a logistics struggle, gathering sufficient amounts of Dor to win your fights. But if you don't have enough Dor to power your insta-win units, you lose easily. Using Aons alone to wreck entire armies seems like it would strain Investiture reserves. I bet there's something we can slap on to reduce that strain. Breaths are reusable and easy to get your hands on; Awakened objects could fill some needed roles, and raising fallen enemies as Lifeless can provide infantry. That way even if you're low on Dor, you can still put up a fight.