Why kill the Emperors of Azir?

[dstokes7]

When Taravangian sent Szeth out to kill a long list of world leaders, he allegedly picked leaders whose loss would cause chaos, since he wanted the world in shambles as preparation for Taravangian himself becoming "emperor of everything" per the Diagram's instructions. Yet a few of his decisions of who to kill and who to leave don't make sense to me.

For example, we have no mention or evidence of him targeting any Iriali leaders, despite that country being a regional power and a potential roadblock for Taravangian's desired overlordship of all Roshar (as was indeed demonstrated when Iri proceeded to conquer their portion of the world at the start of the war rather than joining the coalition). After all, his stated explanation to Navani for killing King Hanavanar was because Hanavanar would have been unlikely to join the coalition. Wouldn't the same logic dictate the decapitation of Iri's leadership?

For that matter, why leave King Elhokar alone? When it appears the king is about to get smashed by a chasmfiend in WoK, Adolin panics because he forsees Alethkar shattering with Elhokar gone. That seems like exactly what Taravangian would have liked (especially if he took out Dalinar and maybe Sadeas while he was at it to prevent either one from taking the throne), but he leaves him alone. Why?

Finally, the one that confuses me the most is his decision to target the Azish Prime. There are two countries we know of on Roshar that have stable, semi-democratic governments led by figurehead monarchs without any real power: Azir and Thaylena. Both have oathgates, which would have been critical bargaining chips for Taravangian to control, and both are regional powers in some form (Azir as the core of Makabak, and Thaylenah as the chief sea power and shipping magnate on Roshar). Taravangian must have known that taking out the monarchs of these places wouldn't cause chaos there, because both would simply have replacements re-elected (as indeed happened twice in Azir). So why leave the queen of Thaylenah alone while killing not one, but two successive Emperors of Azir? Leaving Queen Fen alone makes sense, but I can't see how whacking a figurehead monarch of Azir with no real power to decide his nation's domestic or foreign policy would contribute to Taravangian's objective of chaos (especially since later events showed that it didn't have any negative impact on Azir long term at all). Why treat Azir differently from Thaylenah? Why kill the emperor of Azir at all? 

Heck, if Taravangian really wanted to control Azir and Makabak, he could have simply killed the first emperor, then submitted the greatest essay of all time to the competition - either under his own name or that of a sycophant who could be a puppet - and gotten selected as emperor directly (they might have even welcomed him as a disposable monarch they wouldn't cry over losing much as they did with Gawx). But he didn't. 

I guess I'm an idiot compared to Taravangian, so I'd appreciate any insights and thoughts!

Edited May 20 by dstokes7

[Returned he/him]

It's always frustrating and tricky to evaluate anything based off of the Diagram because it's more detailed and dense than we can comprehend (maybe we can identify with Taravangian and company on that!). So we always have the possibilities that the Diagram was wrong, that it was right but misinterpreted by its followers, that it was right but didn't have time to come to fruition, and other issues surrounding our indefinable lack of knowledge about it. Here are a couple of considerations/guesses:

1. Taravangian's plans ultimately didn't work: he wasn't the king of everything, and so his imagined deal with Odium didn't work out as he had originally intended. It didn't even work for nations he actually was king of, like Jah Keved. So we should be careful of thinking that every single move was perfect and precise.
    
2. He couldn't do everything at once (he often complained about lacking time), so "why not X?" might be better looked at as "why not X yet?". I tend to view the Diagram as less about making nothing but decisive moves than it was about playing the odds to create circumstances that he could later exploit in ways that were favorable to him. When there was a decisive opportunity, he took it, but there also seemed to be a lot of conditionality in predictions. Lots of contingencies, essentially, so that he could make the best possible decisions depending on how certain events played out. That he could have become Prime (if, indeed, he could) is probably less important than making sure that he became Prime in an appropriate way at an appropriate time.
    
3. His schemes missed quite a bit, almost certainly including Szeth's death and rejection of being Truthless. They were also cut short (or seriously diverted by events). There is no reason to think that he had fully completed the waves of assassinations and subsequent machinations he had planned out, so perhaps Iri and Theylenah were spared because the plans were disrupted.
    
4. Taravangian didn't want a shattered Alethkar, he wanted a whole one that he could control indirectly (by controlling Dalinar, which seems to have been his original plan) or directly in some other way. Dealing with ten Highprincedoms seems harder and worse than one single nation, though I have to think that Taravangian would have plots and plans for dealing with such a thing were it really more attractive to do so. As it was, Dalinar sidelined Elhokar and effectively ruled the nation anyhow. Removing Elhokar as a figurehead would probably have upset that. It was only when Dalinar turned away from the "path of the warlord", and therefore became a rival to him, that Taravangian sent Szeth to kill him.
    
5. Taravangian's assassinations were widespread and (apparently) carefully chosen and planned, presumably to cause chaos and unease but also to create conditions that he could further exploit to achieve his ends. Paralyzing Azir by ensuring that the most capable candidates for Prime didn't want the position (because of fear of more assassination) may have pushed it into the state he wanted.
    
6. Taravangian went to an enormous amount of trouble to hide his ultimate goals, such as being crowned king of Jah Keved "by accident". It was important to his schemes that he be seen as nonthreatening and something other than a power-hungry conqueror. Explicitly claiming the office of Prime wouldn't work well with that (even if it were legally possible, which it may not have been), while submitting an impossibly great essay would destroy his image as a doddering, kindly old man. For all we know, that was his ultimate plan but it had to come later when subterfuge was no longer necessary.
    
7. He made use of the tensions caused by no one knowing who had hired the Assassin in White. We know very little about international relations and politics prior to the coming of the Everstorm, and even less about internal considerations for basically everywhere except Alethkar and Jah Keved. If we assume that the plan the Diagram outlined was pretty good, and that the participants in the conspiracy were doing an adequate job of decoding it, then we must also assume that these sorts of issues weren't oversights.
    
8. Taravangian's early efforts were to control the most militarily powerful nations on Roshar. Maybe that was coincidence, but to me it suggests that military conquest was the route to becoming king of at least some places. But you aren't going to start with Theylenah for that, or even the regionally fractious Azir.

Edited May 20 by Returned

[Schizoposting]

1 hour ago, dstokes7 said:

For example, we have no mention or evidence of him targeting any Iriali leaders, despite that country being a regional power and a potential roadblock for Taravangian's desired overlordship of all Roshar (as was indeed demonstrated when Iri proceeded to conquer their portion of the world at the start of the war rather than joining the coalition).

Actually, Kaladin saw Szeth kill people in Iri, in his visions. So Taravangian did target them, at least somewhat. 

As for your question, the Diagram is too convoluted for mortal minds to understand, and we don't have access to all the information regarding the political situation in Roshar, so we don't know for sure. If I had to guess, I'd say that he killed the Prime to weaken Azir, so he could dominate it as part of his coalition, without triggering a full collapse. But obviously, this is all speculative.

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, dstokes7 said:

Heck, if Taravangian really wanted to control Azir and Makabak, he could have simply killed the first emperor, then submitted the greatest essay of all time to the competition - either under his own name or that of a sycophant who could be a puppet - and gotten selected as emperor directly (they might have even welcomed him as a disposable monarch they wouldn't cry over losing much as they did with Gawx). But he didn't. 

He probably would have given enough time, but Gawx beat him to it, and at that point things had changed to the point it was not longer reasonable to do so.

[Qianweilian He/him]

4 hours ago, dstokes7 said:

I guess I'm an idiot compared to Taravangian, so I'd appreciate any insights and thoughts!

I mean, so is Taravangian compared to you (sometimes)

3 hours ago, Returned said:

Taravangian's plans ultimately didn't work: he wasn't the king of everything, and so his imagined deal with Odium didn't work out as he had originally intended. It didn't even work for nations he actually was king of, like Jah Keved. So we should be careful of thinking that every single move was perfect and precise.

I mean, he kinda did, eventually, although not through the Diagram. He rules all of Roshar other than Azir, only saved due to Adolin, the Shattered Plains, only saved due to the listeners, and Urithiru, again, only saved because of the protagonists.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

But you aren't going to start with Theylenah for that, or even the regionally fractious Azir.

I mean, I wouldn't want to face the Thaylen navy when having only the navies of places like Alethkar and Jah Keved at my disposal. Thaylenah is a militarily important target.

[Returned he/him]

On 5/20/2026 at 7:30 PM, Qianweilian said:

I mean, he kinda did, eventually, although not through the Diagram. He rules all of Roshar other than Azir, only saved due to Adolin, the Shattered Plains, only saved due to the listeners, and Urithiru, again, only saved because of the protagonists.

The "not through the Diagram" piece is what I was referring to. He may have succeeded in his goal, but not through his plans (at least, as he understood them). Hence the "plans didn't work" comment. We can't rule out that the true plan, devised by the ultra-brilliant Taravangian, was exactly what ended up happening, however difficult that may be to believe.

On 5/20/2026 at 7:30 PM, Qianweilian said:

I mean, I wouldn't want to face the Thaylen navy when having only the navies of places like Alethkar and Jah Keved at my disposal. Thaylenah is a militarily important target.

But less important that Alethkar and Jah Keved, which are famed for having the best soldiers and most expansive militaries in the world. Most of Roshar is not accessible by boat. The navy matters and is an important military target (as you say), but it's not as important a military to control in pursuit of conquering Roshar, which is what I was trying to describe.

Edit: I don't mean to suggest that Thaylenah has an incompetent or ineffective military, but rather that it probably wouldn't be the first one to take command of for someone who wants military dominance. Important, but less so than Alethkar and Jah Keved.

Edited May 22 by Returned

[earthexile]

For all we know, the Diagram included a chain of calculations that made it make sense for Azir to stand for some reason. It works out to draw Coalition forces away from places Odium considers way more personally vital, like the Shattered Plains and Thaylenah. Maybe it even works out for Retribution that there's a single powerful human nation still planted on Roshar. His galactic conquistador army has to practice with *someone.*

[mordtirith]

On 5/20/2026 at 8:30 PM, dstokes7 said:

For example, we have no mention or evidence of him targeting any Iriali leaders, despite that country being a regional power and a potential roadblock for Taravangian's desired overlordship of all Roshar (as was indeed demonstrated when Iri proceeded to conquer their portion of the world at the start of the war rather than joining the coalition). After all, his stated explanation to Navani for killing King Hanavanar was because Hanavanar would have been unlikely to join the coalition. Wouldn't the same logic dictate the decapitation of Iri's leadership?

It would, and it did, Kaladin sees Szeth killing Iriali leadership in WoK. The real question is: did the Diagram realize the Iri would be leaving the planet soon? If so, maybe the leaders Taravangian had killed were those who wouldn't want to capitulate to Odium. He wanted to have everyone join the coalition, but maybe he saw 2 possible paths for Iriali: "either they fight Odium and are destroyed, or they surrender then leave. In either case, they never join the coalition... Let's just push them for the second path then."

I can see that being "humanitarian" enough for Taravangian's goals.

On 5/20/2026 at 8:30 PM, dstokes7 said:

For that matter, why leave King Elhokar alone? When it appears the king is about to get smashed by a chasmfiend in WoK, Adolin panics because he forsees Alethkar shattering with Elhokar gone. That seems like exactly what Taravangian would have liked (especially if he took out Dalinar and maybe Sadeas while he was at it to prevent either one from taking the throne), but he leaves him alone. Why?

I think Taravangian wanted Elhokar to found the coalition. How much easier would it be, to push him aside and become leader, if Dalinar had died at the start of WoR and it had been Elhokar instead who took down the Parshendi and discovered Urithiru?

The Diagram didn't need every nation on the world destroyed or in collapse, it needed them as pliable to Taravangian as possible. For the Vedens, yeah, that meant civil war and internal annihilation, but that didn't need to be it in every case.

That even extends so far as to the Azish: Gawks was probably perfect for him, a young kid, easy to manipulate.

Taravangian didn't want the entire world to kill itself, he just wanted to be in a position where he could, with as little strife as possible, get them to all go "we should put that Vargo dude in charge"

[dstokes7]

36 minutes ago, mordtirith said:

That even extends so far as to the Azish: Gawks was probably perfect for him, a young kid, easy to manipulate.

I really like your thinking, but the crux of what confuses me about killing the emperor is the emperor is a figurehead. So what if he's easier to manipulate, if he doesn't have any real power, there's no point to manipulating him. If manipulation of the Azish government was his goal, why not take out the most influential viziers instead, such as Noura? They are the ones actually in power, so why not focus on them?

Edited May 31 by dstokes7

[mordtirith]

2 hours ago, dstokes7 said:

I really like your thinking, but the crux of what confuses me about killing the emperor is the emperor is a figurehead. So what if he's easier to manipulate, if he doesn't have any real power, there's no point to manipulating him. If manipulation of the Azish government was his goal, why not take out the most influential viziers instead, such as Noura? They are the ones actually in power, so why not focus on them?

The real question is, why did it work xD

Yeah the Emperor is a figurehead, but Taravangian's goals worked perfectly fine, Azir entered the coalition and nearly came over to him in OB. Out of everything he could have done, repeatedly killing Emperors worked out just fine. How, and how the hell he knew that, is up to debate.

Was that exactly his intention, to get people like Noura in power? Someone who would have enough emotion and care behind her, after repeated losses, to act on instincts of right and wrong slightly more than the "expected Azish metodology"? The repeated slaying of emperors eventually lead them to declare a miracle upon a Surgebinder, which greatly influenced them to accept the coalition of Radiants where before they seemed most afraid of the powers of all kingdoms.

The bottom-line is, it worked.

I think Jah Keved was an extreme exception, a land where Taravangian saw no possible path to getting them into the coalition other than him personally dragging them in via inheriting the kingdom.

Remember, his "king of everything" gambit was a stupid plan because Rayse saw through it instantly, but it was supposed to be covert. The idea wasn't "Get Taravangian on the throne of every nation," instead it was "Make Odium agree to let Taravangian's lands go free, then surprise reveal that technically he is king of everything."

For most governments on Roshar, just getting them into the Coalition of Monarchs was enough for his plan, and whatever he did in Azir was enough for that.