Arandomclone5555 Posted April 26 Posted April 26 We are pretty sure from WOBs that Autonomy is somehow involved in what is happening on Sel, and that Jaddeth is most likely one of her avatars. I was thinking about what we know about her avatars and how they work. In some cases it seems she just forms them out of her own investiture, which was probably how she formed the Sand Lord on Taldain. But we also know that she can make other beings into her avatars, like Telsin, and Patji. My theory is that she can use other masses of investiture and infect them with her own to make an avatar, which I think was what happened with Patji, though Patji was probably intelligent on its own, possibly similar to a spren. I think that Autonomy's goals on Sel are directly related to the Dor. Fjorden's beliefs are related to Autonomy, but they are also undoubtably influenced by Dominion, and perhaps some Devotion as well. I believe that Autonomy is attempting to form an avatar, Jaddeth, out of the Dor itself. This would effectively be creating a dishardic being under her control that does not interfere with her main self and therefore would not alter her intent, which I think she would be opposed to. But by creating Jaddeth, she could become one of the most powerful beings in the cosmere by extension. We know she had involvement in the splintering of Devotion and Dominion before, so this may even be a plan that she has been working towards for thousands of years. What do you guys think? 3
Treamayne Posted April 27 Posted April 27 Welcome to the Shard. Please consider an Intro Post to let us know what you have or have-not read (whichever list is shorter). Also, please consider checking out the Sharder FAQ for some useful forum info and tips. 4 hours ago, Arandomclone5555 said: which I think was what happened with Patji, though Patji was probably intelligent on its own, possibly similar to a spren. Patji was already Autonomy Investiture; or, at leasr, mostly Autonomy. It can be a bit confusing, but all investiture in the Cosmere was assigned to at least one Shard during the Shattering. That investiture does not only occur on the world/system where the Shard eventually settled. So First of the Sun had Investiture aligned to Autonomy without Bavadin ever actually ''visiting" the system - but once Bavadin became aware of that part of Autonomy there, she could influence it because it is not a Splinter - separated from her main power. WoBs: Spoiler Quote Quote Yurisses Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, it is. That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic. Remember when I say Investiture, I mean matter, energy and magic. Sometimes the word Investiture refers just to the magic such as the Aviar and in that it is associated directly with one of the Shards... Yurisses Which one? Brandon Sanderson Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. *silence* Overlord Jebus Sorry, can you say that again? Brandon Sanderson Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium. Aurimus Is that one of the Aviar? Brandon Sanderson No, Patji is the island. Overlord Jebus Island or islands? Brandon Sanderson The island but Patji is one of the islands. Yurisses It's a Shard?! Brandon Sanderson Yes, big asterisk! But yes. Aurimus Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture? Brandon Sanderson As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates Oathbringer* Sorry, I probably killed some theories on that one. Overlord Jebus Yup, but by doing that you've confirmed some as well so it's fine! Footnote: The asterisk Brandon is referencing is that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) ReadAndFindOut In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think? Brandon Sanderson I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect. But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun. The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.) Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there. That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations. I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn. But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.) Oversleep Wait. I'm confused. So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium? Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard. And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun. But now you're saying it didn't? If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually? Could you please clarify all that? Brandon Sanderson So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?" The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three. When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing. I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time. We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have. Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists. You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring. Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time. And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time. I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers... Overlord Jebus You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals). Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard? Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now. Brandon Sanderson I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story. Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it. Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story. I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one. Chaos Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple. Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though. General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018) Quote Questioner So Bavadin's avatars, right; Autonomy's avatars. Brandon Sanderson One of Bavadin's avatars. Questioner Of those avatars, are some or all of them actual Splinters of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson The terminology gets kind of sticky here. In Cosmere terms, some would say that counts as Splinters, some would say not. The avatars aren't necessarily aware but Bavadin always is. A lot of people in Cosmere would call that a Splinter. Questioner My follow up to that would be, is it possible for a person to Ascend and become a Vessel of one of those Splinters? Brandon Sanderson That is plausible. Yes. It could happen. It would be tough because they will have personalities of their own and so something would need to happen... but yeah. Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019) Quote Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 4 hours ago, Arandomclone5555 said: Autonomy's goals on Sel are directly related to the Dor. Current understanding of Autonomy's motiviation is to "out-religion" the other Shards. Bavadin planted seeds of religion in multiple worlds; not with a specific plan for each, but so that she would have a foothold should she choose to exercise that foothold. That was how she gre Trell from the pre-Rashek old religion into the version of Trell seen in Mistborn Era 2. Likewise, it is implied she planted the seed of Jaddeth long ago so that she may be able to leverage that in Sel's future (from the end of Elantris). References: Spoiler TLM Ch 20: Quote “What is Trell’s goal, then?” Marasi asked. “If he doesn’t want to destroy the other gods?” “Trell is trying to edge out the others,” Moonlight said. “She—he, they, it varies—doesn’t like engaging other gods directly. We call them Shards, by the way. Autonomy is trying to outcompete the others by filling the cosmere with versions of herself. Crowd out the competition, so to speak. Like an extremely invasive plant moving into another ecosystem and strangling the local varieties.” Marasi frowned. “I … think I understand.” “Conversations about Autonomy can be confusing,” Moonlight said, her eyes on the road. “Trellism is the remnants of an ancient religion on your world, originally founded by Autonomy long, long ago. A seed for when she decided to move in. Now, that time has come. Autonomy is looking for someone on this planet to fully take up that role, that identity.” “Wait, take up that role?” “She wants to leave a god behind on this planet,” Moonlight explained. “Someone who bears some of her power, who sees to her interests, and is—in many ways—a piece of her soul. She does this all around the cosmere. Some worlds have entire pantheons that are all versions of her, each of which has a distinct personality and identity.” “So … she’s role-playing? With herself?” “Yes,” Moonlight said. “But Autonomy’s Investiture has a life of its own, and so each version of her becomes its own thing over time. Sometimes they aren’t a person but only power. Other times, if the situation needs more oversight, she picks someone to elevate.” “So…” Marasi said, “she’s going to take our world by setting up a rival god and forcing Harmony out?” “Basically,” Moonlight said. WoBs: Quote strican In The Lost Metal, it mentions Autonomy having avatars in other worlds. In Shu-Dereth on Sel, Jaddeth speaks directly to Wyrn, who then propagates his will down the hierarchy- Brandon Sanderson Yes. strican Within the religion, ambition is rewarded, but only if it aligns with the orders of the hierarchy. That sounds similar to the philosophy used in the Set, but replacing Jaddeth with Trell. Is Jaddeth an avatar of Autonomy? Brandon Sanderson *chuckles and points at screen in very satisfied way* RAFO. You're a very smart person. It's [pronounced] "Yaddeth", by the way. That is also one of the Y-J's. ... So, I will say this. Here's what I'll canonize. There is something happening, and the people there legitimately believe, and have reason to believe, that their god is going to return. And I have said before, many times, that Book 2 of Elantris begins with the return of their god. 'Cause they've said "God can't come back until everybody converts". But they've found a loophole. They're like "well, except those heretics in Elantris. And also that other little place, that tiny little region that's over in the mountains, where they talk about roses, they don't count either. Because they're, um, not actually part of the planet." Um, so. So that's something to look forward to, if I ever get around to writing Dakhor, is the return of Jaddeth, the god of [Shu-Dereth]. YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022) Quote Overlord Jebus Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard? Brandon Sanderson Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. Overlord Jebus Are they aware of that Investiture? Brandon Sanderson That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things. Overlord Jebus So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere? Brandon Sanderson Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm. Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017) Quote VeryNiceName16 A while ago you told us that all Investiture in the Cosmere was assigned to a Shard at the Shattering, and that Investiture purified of Shardic alignment was impossible. Since then, we’ve seen Dawnshards, aethers, the Old Magic gods on Roshar (Wind/Stone/Night), and purified Dor. Are these things all still aligned to Shards? Have you changed how this works? Brandon Sanderson I've tweaked it a little bit. I still imagine it's all still aligned to a Shard, but it's more in its history. And I've begun letting it be wiped a little bit more, and things like that. I do think that, for instance, the old gods were Shardic-aligned, when happened. They kind of predate the Shattering, but kind of not. When you read Wind and Truth you can kinda figure that out. I'm letting it be wiped of Intent and for all intents and purposes acting like it is completely wiped. But that's not really 100% possible. All Investiture came from Adonalsium. (Asterisk: the Aethers claim they didn't.) And therefore, all Investiture still came from Adonalsium, even if you... If you file off the serial numbers of something, it's still the thing. You just don't recognize it. That's where I am right now on this. It's a good question. I could change on this. This is one of those ones where I could change on as things go along. Because, again, the Aethers claim they are not derived from Adonalsium. YouTube Spoiler Stream 7 (Dec. 19, 2025) Hope that helps 2
Arandomclone5555 Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 Interesting, I did know that all investiture was assigned to a shard at the shattering but I didn't know Patji was already connected to Autonomy. I do still think that Autonomy is somehow messing with the Dor somehow, especially Dominion's investiture, partially because of this WOB: Spoiler Questioner [Does] the expansion of Jaddeth’s empire have more to do with greed and hunger for power, or the innate nature of Dominion? Brandon Sanderson Both. I would say both. The innate nature of Dominion probably caused the greed and hunger for power. Questioner What would you say percentage-wise? Brandon Sanderson Well, one caused the other. It definitely started with Dominion. The Skaze are pretty thirsty for power. Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015) This implies that the Skaze are actively encouraging Fjorden's expansion and that they have a goal of their own. However, we also have reason to believe because of the WOB you cited, that Jaddeth is Autonomy and is responsible for the events on Sel. This could mean that there are two separate groups encouraging Fjorden's goals, but to me it makes more sense if Autonomy is behind it all and is somehow influencing the Skaze through the Dor.
Treamayne Posted April 27 Posted April 27 (edited) Thank you for the Intro Post 24 minutes ago, Arandomclone5555 said: This implies that the Skaze are actively encouraging Fjorden's expansion and that they have a goal of their own. However, we also have reason to believe because of the WOB you cited, that Jaddeth is Autonomy and is responsible for the events on Sel. This could mean that there are two separate groups encouraging Fjorden's goals, but to me it makes more sense if Autonomy is behind it all and is somehow influencing the Skaze through the Dor. Not impossible, but not likely since the Skaze are Splinters of Dominion (Just as Seons are Splinters of Devotion); so, they are specificaly the pieces of Devotion and Dominion that are not part of the Dor because the splinters remained in the Physical Realm (with connection in the Spiritual Realm, which is how they communicate long-distance) while the Dor is, specifically, the portions of Devotion and Dominon that was put into the Cognitive Realm so that it was cut-off from the Spiritual Realm so it would prevent the Shards from gaining new vessels. Entirely possible that, if Elantris-era Jaddeth is an Avatar of Autonomy, then that Avatar may be influencing the Skaze (or just Fjorden) - but the Dor is not likely to be the mechanism of that influence because they were specifically separated by Odium. In a normal Shard-world, the Investiture Cycle means that Investiture that has been used returns to the Spiritual Realm and the body of the Shard from whence it came. To prevent that, Odium made it so that the Investiture Cycle of the Dor returns to the Cognitive Realm and the main portion of the Dor there (otherwise, enough use of the Dor would eventually reform Devotion and Dominion in the SR) - it is like Mistborn Era 1 when Preservation hid part of Ruin's power by trapping it in the investiture cycle at the Pits of Hathsin to prevent it from returning to Ruin in the SR (the main reason Ati needed to find the Atium to recover Ruin's lost power). WoBs: Spoiler Quote sufficientlyadvanced It says that it's dangerous to travel to Shadesmar on Sel. Why? Brandon Sanderson It has to do with the Dor and the lack of an entity controlling much of the power Odium left in his wake on Sel. Phantine Woah, that's interesting. I had no idea Odium left little bits of his power on Sel... I guess it kinda makes sense for evil monks to be powered by pure hate, though. Brandon Sanderson Odium did not leave his power behind, one should note. He left several other powers which are now, to a large extent, mindless... Windrunner If you wouldn't mind answering, does Roshar have a similar problem, with Honor being Splintered? Brandon Sanderson No, Roshar does not have the same problem. There are some differences going on. One reason being that the spren are far more extensive on Roshar, and provide something of a "release valve." The seons and the skaze on Sel are not numerous enough to fulfill a similar function. Though, of course, that's only one part of the puzzle. Raw power is dangerous. It's one reason everyone should be thankful Kelsier was around on Scadrial. General Reddit 2013 (March 11, 2013) Quote <edited for length and relevance> Brandon Sanderson Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Quote James Clifford Science question! Brandon Sanderson Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science? Adam Horne It is Brandon science. Brandon Sanderson Fake science! James Clifford With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard? Brandon Sanderson *laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware. It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) Quote LazerWulf (paraphrased) You've said that Seons and Skaze contain splinters of Devotion and Dominion. Were these splinters created when Odium killed the shardholders and Splintered their shards? Or are they more similar to how Endowment splinters himself (herself?) to make divine breaths? What is the difference between the two? Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased) First, he said that it was a very good question. Then he said that those splinters weren't supposed to be there, and they were indeed created when Odium splintered the shards. He said that the difference lies in how each magical system works. Endowment's splinters are more similar to how Preservation invested a little bit of her shard into each human on Scadrial. Miscellaneous 2013 (Sept. 27, 2013) Quote mathota123 Is the creation of skaze end-negative? Brandon Sanderson So, you're not quite using the term right. The terms "end-negative" and "end-positive" refer to a specific system--in most cases, we're talking about the individual(s) using the magic. Do you draw more magic out, or is it powered by your own native Investiture? Awakening is what we call end-neutral, despite the fact that (obviously) the Breaths came from someone else in the first place. That's not the point in contention here--do the same number of Breaths (the same amount of Investiture) continue to exist in the system as you're manipulating the magic. In something like AonDor, you are drawing out much more power than you put in--end-positive. That power is put to work doing something, such as healing a body, or creating a blast of power. The skaze, like the seons, were created when a Shard was Splintered. The terminology doesn't quite work there, at least not in the way that scholars in the cosmere would use it. The question from the physicist in this thread about where Investiture goes, and what it means for a Shard to have access to certain amounts of power, is related to all of this. I'm hoping to be able to find some time to craft a response there, as there are some fundamental understandings of the magic that are relevant to the discussion that I should point out. Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 21, 2016) Hope that helps Edited April 27 by Treamayne SPAG 1
Arandomclone5555 Posted April 27 Author Posted April 27 Alright that makes sense. Out of curiosity, do you think Autonomy has some greater goal for Sel other than just establishing an Avatar? It feels like something is definitely going on with Wyrn and the Skaze, and I don't know why Autonomy would care so much about destroying Arelon and Teod if she was just trying to form an Avatar and I would love to know your personal theories.
Through the living Wahr He/Him Posted April 27 Posted April 27 I think we would have probably learned more about Autonomys Involvement with Sel in the Elantris Sequels who were originaly planned to release alongside Ghostbloods but are now maybe beeing cut. 1
Treamayne Posted April 27 Posted April 27 (edited) 7 hours ago, Arandomclone5555 said: It feels like something is definitely going on with Wyrn and the Skaze, and I don't know why Autonomy would care so much about destroying Arelon and Teod if she was just trying to form an Avatar and I would love to know your personal theories. I think it is likely that Autonomy already tipped Jaddeth's hand 10 years before Elantris. WoB: Spoiler Mi'chelle Walker Was the Reod natural? Brandon Sanderson The Reod natural? *laughs* Mi'chelle Walker Here’s the thing, you’ve answered this question for us already, we just need it on audio. Josh Walker It wasn’t the Reod that was the question it was was the earthquake natural? Mi'chelle Walker No, Eric’s [Chaos] asking if the Reod was natural. Josh Walker To heck with Eric, we don’t care about him. Mi'chelle Walker You’ve told us that the earthquake was not caused by natural events. Brandon Sanderson Yeah, but it’s a complicated question because the earthquake was not caused by natural, but the Reod was a natural effect of the earthquake, then... does that make sense? So the Reod is natural, a natural result of... does that make sense? That’s why it was a tricky question. Mi'chelle Walker But the earthquake was not natural. Brandon Sanderson No, it was not. Aaron So the Reod is a natural reaction to an unnatural occurrence. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Josh Walker And wasn’t it because there was like magical strain on the land? Brandon Sanderson That is certainly part of what was going on. West Jordan signing 2012 (Dec. 6, 2012) So, everything since the Reod is just playing out the dominoes from that one event. Edited April 27 by Treamayne SPAG 3
Atlas333 Posted April 28 Posted April 28 On 4/26/2026 at 9:14 PM, Arandomclone5555 said: Alright that makes sense. Out of curiosity, do you think Autonomy has some greater goal for Sel other than just establishing an Avatar? It feels like something is definitely going on with Wyrn and the Skaze, and I don't know why Autonomy would care so much about destroying Arelon and Teod if she was just trying to form an Avatar and I would love to know your personal theories. I think that Autonomy's primary motivation is to stay independent. This motivation extends past herself to every shard. That's why she went after Harmony, even if we know that Harmony is generally a force for good. Sel is one of the few planets with two shards. Additionally, those shards don't have a vessel and could theoretically be picked up if someone could find out how to piece them back together. I think Autonomy's goal is to prevent this from happening. Her overall goal might just be interference. Maybe the Elantrians were getting close to figuring it out, so she caused the Reod to stop them. 2
Arandomclone5555 Posted April 28 Author Posted April 28 (edited) Spoiler Sel is one of the few planets with two shards. Additionally, those shards don't have a vessel and could theoretically be picked up if someone could find out how to piece them back together. I think Autonomy's goal is to prevent this from happening. Her overall goal might just be interference. Maybe the Elantrians were getting close to figuring it out, so she caused the Reod to stop them That makes a lot of sense! She was mainly afraid of Harmony because of his dishardic nature, so her being afraid of elantrians being able to put Devotion and Dominion together and pushing for Fjorden to wipe out anyone who could be one makes so much sense. This could also explain the Ire in some ways. Spoiler William Yates Did the Ire form before the events of Elantris or do they form after the city is healed? Brandon Sanderson This is an excellent question! (And one I'm not going to answer yet, I'm afraid.) #NookTalks Twitter Q&A with Barnes & Noble (Feb. 16, 2016) While he doesn’t confirm it, this WOB makes me think that the Ire left Sel before the Reod, and it could be because they were the group that had figured out how to restore Devotion and Dominion, as we have seen they have highly advanced technology like the orb that would have let them take Preservation. Autonomy could have found out, and they left the planet before she caused the Reod, and Elantris is her taking measures to ensure that no one can come close to what they were trying to accomplish again. Edited April 29 by Arandomclone5555 Changed a typo: likely to like 3
Treamayne Posted April 29 Posted April 29 1 hour ago, Arandomclone5555 said: While he doesn’t confirm it, this WOB makes me think that the Ire left Sel before the Reod That is confirmed - WoB: Spoiler Questioner Question about Elantris real quick. In your [Arcanum] Unbound[ed], they show up. Is this post or pre Elantris. Because they're so well organized in that one. Brandon Sanderson So, that is post Elantris. But, the Ire weathered the [Reod]. Questioner Oh they come back. And they remember everything. Brandon Sanderson They were not on Sel when the [Reod] happened. Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018) Hope that helps 2
PanLin they/he Posted May 3 Posted May 3 (edited) On 4/26/2026 at 9:35 PM, Arandomclone5555 said: My theory is that she can use other masses of investiture and infect them with her own to make an avatar Potentially! Trellium hemalurgic spikes have red in them, a colour associated with corrupted Investiture. I'm not sure if that red is actually confirmed to be because of corrupted Investiture, but Autonomy's whole approach to Invested arts seems to revolve around using the people and Investiture that exist across the Cosmere for her own ends. We also know that sand mastery is probably intentionally a mimicry of aethers, which implies that Autonomy likes to steal ideas/inspiration from other Invested arts. From the wiki: Quote Certain colors are linked to a change in Investiture, such as corrupted Investiture being red.[37] Sand is controlled in ribbons; the strength of a sand master is defined by how many ribbons they are capable of calling forth.[15][8] They do so at the cost of their internal stores of water,[6] an aspect of the magic which is implied to be intentional mimicry of Aether magic.[16] Edited May 6 by PanLin 2
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