AonDor and Hemalurgy

[Qianweilian He/him]

Spoiler

A wild Trusk'our appeared!

I was thinking, Hemalurgy is—theoretically—an incredibly powerful art. However, it is also very precise and variable, depending significantly on your target. In practice, placing the spikes is incredibly difficult, necessitating surgical accuracy. Knowing where to place the spikes is also extremely difficult to obtain information—particularly if you're trying to do more than steal the metallic arts. AonDor is also an incredibly precise and variable art, and I believe that they have synergy.

Considering the validity of spike guns, I believe moving a spike with AonDor would hemalurgically charge it. Given the available precision to AonDor, a spike could be put through any nerve with perfect precision, only needing a basic knowledge of anatomy and AonDor—allowing for many more spikes to be produced. It could also open up the possibility of spikes being used in combat situations. If you can engrave Aons on an item to summon an steel spike and send it to a specific location in an enemy's body, this makes a hemalurgist much more dangerous.

If you fight this hemalurgist, then they could potentially steal the powers of anyone attacking them. Of course, this would need to be done in advance, but, given my second idea that I'm about to present, you could easily set up plans to deprive any Radiant, Elantrian, or Metalborn of their powers by simply touching a combination of Aons. Powers don't even necessarily have to be stolen. If you, in a fight, can deprive your opponent of any of their strength, their senses, their intelligence, you could potentially defeat a much stronger foe—even one that can heal from a metal spike hurtling at their body.

Of course, this plan would require an incredible amount of knowledge about bindpoints—something that is frequently ignored by many Sharders (mostly due to the inability to get much more information about them). However, I have a proposal that I believe may fix the issue. Given that AonDor can be conditional and Shards can access a wealth of information upon request, I believe that AonDor—the Dor being the body of two shards—can potentially give access to this information.

For example, you could create an Aon equation that goes like this "if a steel spike in this position would steal Allomantic Iron, then summon a light for 5 seconds." You could use this to discover bindpoints for spikes without intensive testing—something that would often be wrong for highly invested individuals given the fact that many of the spiritwebs are unusual, shifting bindpoints.

 

Given these points (pun not intended), I think it would be possible to use AonDor to vastly improve the efficiency and practical aspects of Hemalurgy. The actual theoretical power would be mostly unchanged, but it would allow an individual or group to reach this theoretically power much easier before Era 4 starts bringing us stuff like CAT scans for spiritwebs.

[Espella]

Second point doesn't seem very likely to work to me, not sure how the Aons would know that the spike would work at a specific point or not without any prior knowledge of bind points, that feels like putting a black box in front of a program and asking it to predict the output without actually letting it put in any inputs to learn from. Maybe if you hook it up to some fortune shenanigans but I feel like creating an AonDor program that can activate outputs based on futuresight would either be very unreliable (like futuresight we've seen before int he cosmere) or would start to get into some serious causality shenanigans. Also I may be remembering wrong but I thought there fairly detailed bind point diagram or description in Spook's hemalurgy book that Wax memorized at some point, and clearly the Set had managed to work out bind points on their side of things enough to steal and grant various allomantic and feruchemical abilities, so enough knowledge is clearly out there for the standard uses of hemalurgy.

Regarding the first point I do like the idea of the homing spike gun, though with I feel like "basic knowledge of anatomy and AonDor" is probably understating it a bit considering how much precision we've seen was required just to teleport people from one city to another and the fact that people aren't all the exact same shape and at a fixed distance from the user. Haven't seen a ton of applications yet though so maybe there is a way to make it more generalized.

[Trusk'our he/him]

4 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

  Hide contents

A wild Trusk'our appeared!

Better get your spikes ready for capturing this legendary untamed Ruinous Spren (Masterspike quality only).

4 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Considering the validity of spike guns, I believe moving a spike with AonDor would hemalurgically charge it. Given the available precision to AonDor, a spike could be put through any nerve with perfect precision, only needing a basic knowledge of anatomy and AonDor—allowing for many more spikes to be produced.

. . .

For example, you could create an Aon equation that goes like this "if a steel spike in this position would steal Allomantic Iron, then summon a light for 5 seconds." You could use this to discover bindpoints for spikes without intensive testing—something that would often be wrong for highly invested individuals given the fact that many of the spiritwebs are unusual, shifting bindpoints.

 

Given these points (pun not intended), I think it would be possible to use AonDor to vastly improve the efficiency and practical aspects of Hemalurgy. The actual theoretical power would be mostly unchanged, but it would allow an individual or group to reach this theoretically power much easier before Era 4 starts bringing us stuff like CAT scans for spiritwebs.

Alright, let me walk myself through this scenario and you can correct me if I get it wrong: In this scenario, an Elantrian decides to create an Aonic equation that can be modified to guide various types of Hemalurgic spikes for different bindpoints. The spikes are moved with exact precision to hit based on what is in those bindpoints, reducing the need to experiment with so many individuals and allowing the spikes to be used even in very strenuous situations that would normally be impossible for a human being.

It sounds to me like you're suggesting that the Aons have the innate ability to detect such things as Spiritweb composition, but I find this unlikely. As a more code-like system, I think the Elantrian is going to have two options they can follow to make this work. They could go the more direct route and code in the exact bindpoints that are needed to steal specific Spiritweb fragments, or they can go a more complex route and create a more Spren-like intelligence via AonDor that can then learn through practice to improve its performance.

In other words, coding the spike-directing Aon to give an indication if it will pull something from a particular bindpoint will still require the spike to be placed first so that the information can be gained (unless you're using the Spiritual Realm to see alternative histories, in which case you could probably make it work. That said, you could also use other methods to peer into the Spiritual Realm to do this, like chromium Feruchemy or electrum or gold Allomancy).

 

The precision of striking the correct bindpoint once you understand it seems very plausible though. Awakening or possibly Sand Mastery may be able to achieve a similar effect, albeit in different ways.

4 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Of course, this plan would require an incredible amount of knowledge about bindpoints—something that is frequently ignored by many Sharders (mostly due to the inability to get much more information about them). However, I have a proposal that I believe may fix the issue. Given that AonDor can be conditional and Shards can access a wealth of information upon request, I believe that AonDor—the Dor being the body of two shards—can potentially give access to this information.

I don't think AonDor has that kind of innate knowledge. If it did, I doubt Elantrians would have to practice so hard to get their equations right, and them being interpreted incorrectly wouldn't be so large of an issue.

Again, hypothetically tapping more directly into the SR could change this, but it shouldn't be an automatic trait.

[Treamayne]

6 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Given that AonDor can be conditional and Shards can access a wealth of information upon request, I believe that AonDor—the Dor being the body of two shards—can potentially give access to this information.

Shards do not have access to information. . . Vessels have access to information because they now exist in the Spiritual Realm. The Dor does not currently have a vessel. 

[Nitpicking]

29 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Shards do not have access to information. . . Vessels have access to information because they now exist in the Spiritual Realm. The Dor does not currently have a vessel. 

Also, Rayse stuffed the raw power of Dominion and Devotion into the Cognitive Realm, cutting it off from the Spiritual (while somehow still leaving it connected enough to supply limitless Investiture).

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

(while somehow still leaving it connected enough to supply limitless Investiture).

Because the investiture cycle was set to send expended investiture back to the Cognitive instead of the Spiritual so that the Shards could not reform as the Investiture cycle moved their power back into the SR. 

Edited April 4 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Qianweilian He/him]

35 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Shards do not have access to information. . . Vessels have access to information because they now exist in the Spiritual Realm. The Dor does not currently have a vessel. 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I don't think AonDor has that kind of innate knowledge. If it did, I doubt Elantrians would have to practice so hard to get their equations right, and them being interpreted incorrectly wouldn't be so large of an issue.

Again, hypothetically tapping more directly into the SR could change this, but it shouldn't be an automatic trait.

That's reasonable. I forgot that the Vessels were in the Spiritual Realm, and even if the Shard itself could normally access Fortune by itself, the Dor is in the CR anyways.

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

The precision of striking the correct bindpoint once you understand it seems very plausible though. Awakening or possibly Sand Mastery may be able to achieve a similar effect, albeit in different ways.

Sand Mastery is a plausible way to do it, though I am worried that it's not precise enough to hit a specific nerve in the heart. Although, I don't currently have access to any canon version of White Sand so I can't verify that.

Awakening is going to be very difficult to do this with. It's very hard to be precise—long, lengthy commands that are hard to visualize are extremely difficult. Awakening metal requires many breaths and the already invested metal may have difficulties getting a Hemalurgic charge.

3 hours ago, Espella said:

Also I may be remembering wrong but I thought there fairly detailed bind point diagram or description in Spook's hemalurgy book that Wax memorized at some point, and clearly the Set had managed to work out bind points on their side of things enough to steal and grant various allomantic and feruchemical abilities, so enough knowledge is clearly out there for the standard uses of hemalurgy.

Yes, but I am more interested in other powers that would be significantly harder to do by trial and error. Stuff like Elantrian-ness, Connection, and other non Metallic Arts.

3 hours ago, Espella said:

Regarding the first point I do like the idea of the homing spike gun, though with I feel like "basic knowledge of anatomy and AonDor" is probably understating it a bit considering how much precision we've seen was required just to teleport people from one city to another and the fact that people aren't all the exact same shape and at a fixed distance from the user. Haven't seen a ton of applications yet though so maybe there is a way to make it more generalized.

It's true, incredible precision is necessary. But it is much easier to research where someone's heart is and tell the spike to go there than to have the surgical accuracy and dexterity to place a spike in the correct position during combat. You make a good point about different people being different sizes.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

8 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

Of course, this plan would require an incredible amount of knowledge about bindpoints—something that is frequently ignored by many Sharders (mostly due to the inability to get much more information about them). However, I have a proposal that I believe may fix the issue. Given that AonDor can be conditional and Shards can access a wealth of information upon request, I believe that AonDor—the Dor being the body of two shards—can potentially give access to this information.

I do not think the Aon system of accessing the Dor is that useful. How do you discover the Aons for concepts like bindpoint and steel spike? It seems like Forgery would be the better way to do this: Create a stamp that forges a history for a spike, having it been invested and bound according to a fabricated history. Maybe even have the stamp maker enact a false version of the spiking so that they can more completely imagine the real thing and inscribe a concept of it into the stamp. The Dor then can be used to make up the difference in Investiture between the unforged spike and what the forging makes of it.

From there, examining the forged spike would require some trick like the way Elsecallers can see into the CR but for regarding the Spiritual elements.

I bet Bloodsealing and Hemalurgy play well together somehow.

[Through the living Wahr He/Him]

11 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

  Reveal hidden contents

A wild Trusk'our appeared!

I was thinking, Hemalurgy is—theoretically—an incredibly powerful art. However, it is also very precise and variable, depending significantly on your target. In practice, placing the spikes is incredibly difficult, necessitating surgical accuracy. Knowing where to place the spikes is also extremely difficult to obtain information—particularly if you're trying to do more than steal the metallic arts. AonDor is also an incredibly precise and variable art, and I believe that they have synergy.

Considering the validity of spike guns, I believe moving a spike with AonDor would hemalurgically charge it. Given the available precision to AonDor, a spike could be put through any nerve with perfect precision, only needing a basic knowledge of anatomy and AonDor—allowing for many more spikes to be produced. It could also open up the possibility of spikes being used in combat situations. If you can engrave Aons on an item to summon an steel spike and send it to a specific location in an enemy's body, this makes a hemalurgist much more dangerous.

If you fight this hemalurgist, then they could potentially steal the powers of anyone attacking them. Of course, this would need to be done in advance, but, given my second idea that I'm about to present, you could easily set up plans to deprive any Radiant, Elantrian, or Metalborn of their powers by simply touching a combination of Aons. Powers don't even necessarily have to be stolen. If you, in a fight, can deprive your opponent of any of their strength, their senses, their intelligence, you could potentially defeat a much stronger foe—even one that can heal from a metal spike hurtling at their body.

Of course, this plan would require an incredible amount of knowledge about bindpoints—something that is frequently ignored by many Sharders (mostly due to the inability to get much more information about them). However, I have a proposal that I believe may fix the issue. Given that AonDor can be conditional and Shards can access a wealth of information upon request, I believe that AonDor—the Dor being the body of two shards—can potentially give access to this information.

For example, you could create an Aon equation that goes like this "if a steel spike in this position would steal Allomantic Iron, then summon a light for 5 seconds." You could use this to discover bindpoints for spikes without intensive testing—something that would often be wrong for highly invested individuals given the fact that many of the spiritwebs are unusual, shifting bindpoints.

 

Given these points (pun not intended), I think it would be possible to use AonDor to vastly improve the efficiency and practical aspects of Hemalurgy. The actual theoretical power would be mostly unchanged, but it would allow an individual or group to reach this theoretically power much easier before Era 4 starts bringing us stuff like CAT scans for spiritwebs.

The Problem I see with this theory is that Spikes are always charged through the heart. The Bindpoint only becomes important once you want to give someone Powers.

So you wouldnt be able to just steal an abillity or attribute mid fight.

Edited April 4 by Through the living Wahr

[Qianweilian He/him]

9 hours ago, Through the living Wahr said:

The Problem I see with this theory is that Spikes are always charged through the heart. The Bindpoint only becomes important once you want to give someone Powers.

That's not true, bind points are important in both stealing and giving powers. The heart is a common bind point for theft, but it isn't always.

9 hours ago, Through the living Wahr said:

So you wouldnt be able to just steal an abillity or attribute mid fight.

I don't really understand how this connects to the rest of your post, if I'm misunderstanding, can you please clarify?

[Through the living Wahr He/Him]

32 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

That's not true, bind points are important in both stealing and giving powers. The heart is a common bind point for theft, but it isn't always.

Okay, I am not that well versed in the Lore and only remembered from Era1 that you needed to spike the heart to steal abilities.

33 minutes ago, Qianweilian said:

I don't really understand how this connects to the rest of your post, if I'm misunderstanding, can you please clarify?

Well most things you typically fight die if you pierce their heart with a Spike to steal Abilities or Attributes.

So stealing their abilities, Sight or whatever is not relevant for a fight if they die anyway when the Spike pierces their heart.

 

 

 

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Through the living Wahr said:

I am not that well versed in the Lore and only remembered from Era1 that you needed to spike the heart to steal abilities.

Slight correction - the Inquisitors believed that you needed to spike a donor through the heart to steal an ability. They did not understand much - HoA Epigraph to Ch 44:

Spoiler

It is a little-known fact that the Inquisitors' torture chambers were actually Hemalurgic laboratories. The Lord Ruler was constantly trying to develop new breeds of servant. It is a testament to Hemalurgy's complexity that, despite a thousand years of trying, he never managed to create anything with it beyond the three kinds of creatures he developed during those few brief moments holding the power.

 

[Qianweilian He/him]

7 hours ago, Through the living Wahr said:

Well most things you typically fight die if you pierce their heart with a Spike to steal Abilities or Attributes.

So stealing their abilities, Sight or whatever is not relevant for a fight if they die anyway when the Spike pierces their heart.

Ah, yes, I get it now. Besides the previous mention of the heart not being the bind point for all spikes, access to AonDor generally means you could easily defeat most uninvested entities. Consequently, the combat applications are mostly aimed at stronger opponents who can heal from regular attacks.