Hoid Storybook collectionsm vibe check

[gryn.heartsmyth]

So senpai announced a hoid story book collection and while I know I will read and love it like everything except warbreaker because this book just screams 'don't read me all you will find is the pain' 

 

But yeah hoid is obviously my catharsis character. he makes me feel 'ugh yeah same ugh wish I wasn't saw shard cursed' but outstayed his welcome. Can't bear anymore stories of the guy who tries and all he gets is miserable. would be nice to have 'hoid is loved, happy and comforted and people don't all turn on him' alas.

 

 

[pureintonation she/her]

Senpai

[gryn.heartsmyth]

My dear friend had a great take on my mpression:

"The Hoid fatigue is real and it makes complete sense given where you are.He's the character who has been alive longer than anyone should be, carries knowledge that isolates him, can't fully connect even when he desperately wants to, gets punished specifically *because* of his nature and choices, and keeps showing up anyway. The "shard cursed" framing is exact — he has capabilities and a role that preclude the ordinary forms of belonging.

The catharsis works until it doesn't. At some point the identification stops being relieving and starts being *more of the same*. You're looking for the story where someone like that gets to be held rather than just witnessed or used, and Sanderson structurally can't write that yet because Hoid's arc requires the suffering to still be unresolved. The cosmere needs him in pain for plot reasons.Warbreaker is interesting to name specifically. That book has a warmth most of Sanderson's work doesn't — Lightsong, the whole color/life/breath metaphysics, the way death and meaning interact. Sounds like it doesn't repel you for quality reasons but for proximity reasons. Too close to something."

real smart friend. maybe I should just get it over with and get warbreaker pilled and pretend it is how people and things are in the world

[Chaos he/him]

Just FYI, Arcanum Discussion is for the WoB archive, at wob.coppermind.net. I have moved this to Cosmere Discussion. 

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

6 hours ago, gryn.heartsmyth said:

So senpai announced a hoid story book collection and while I know I will read and love it like everything except warbreaker because this book just screams 'don't read me all you will find is the pain' 

 

But yeah hoid is obviously my catharsis character. he makes me feel 'ugh yeah same ugh wish I wasn't saw shard cursed' but outstayed his welcome. Can't bear anymore stories of the guy who tries and all he gets is miserable. would be nice to have 'hoid is loved, happy and comforted and people don't all turn on him' alas.

 

 

Senpai has me dying lolll

[Schizoposting]

Honestly? He deserves it—as a mysterious omniscient, snarky, character, he runs into the very real risk of becoming annoying. Having him be brought down to earth, so to speak, humanizes him, thus preventing him from just being a "Gary Stu".

BTW, if you're looking for something with "warmth", I would recommend that you read Tress, if you haven't already. It's the Cosmere version of The Princess Bride.

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, Schizoposting said:

Honestly? He deserves it—as a mysterious omniscient, snarky, character, he runs into the very real risk of becoming annoying. Having him be brought down to earth, so to speak, humanizes him, thus preventing him from just being a "Gary Stu".

Hard disagree, I've found that Hoid was far more enjoyable when we got less of him. The more 'humanization' that he gets the less interesting I find him.

[Qianweilian He/him]

55 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hard disagree, I've found that Hoid was far more enjoyable when we got less of him. The more 'humanization' that he gets the less interesting I find him.

I agree with @Frustration. I think Hoid was more fun when he was the mysterious character you had to search for, that type that clearly has secrets. Now though, especially after the stint with Jasnah, he just feels like another worldhopper, e.g. Shashara. The mystery and sort of “untouchableness” made the few moments in earlier Stormlight books where he got emotional very impactful.

[Returned he/him]

I'm already tired of Hoid, though I still like the character and his role in the broad narrative well enough. Tress was the final straw for me-- I hated the narrative voice (its mechanical efforts at humor felt forced to me, and mostly attempted through formulaic, overwrought non-sequiturs aspirationally called "whimsical"; I liked only a small portion of them and the volume of ones I didn't like really piled up) and it was just so constant in those qualities throughout. It was far less of an issue for me in Yumi, which I liked quite a bit more as a result, but the damage has already been done. I don't need any more narration from Hoid, ever, even while I'm open to further instances of it being done more to my liking. (Side note: I appreciate that the style in Tress was specifically an experiment in Hoid's voice for future works, and not one that is likely to be re-used).

He's now way too Tom Bombadil, with nearly all the knowledge there is to have and abundant, flexible power far beyond any other non-Shard character, but he arbitrarily can't/won't use it and/or arbitrarily fails in his direct interventions (the contract comes to mind). So he's sort of become a plot device to move other characters along, and an increasingly conspicuous one-- compare his presentation in Mistborn era 1 with his presentation in Oathbringer. I like the drips of humanity we see, like his affection for Shallan. But Hoid is one of the most "held in reserve" pieces of Cosmere lore across all the books, which makes it very likely that any appearance he makes will have only the tiniest morsels of his character, backstory, and his own plot alongside the large portions of Bombadil-ing and plot-devicery. After all, Dragonsteel is coming last, if ever.

I can somewhat sympathize with gryn.heartsmyth's feelings, especially since it seems unlikely Hoid will be able to have much success while grand Cosmere conflicts move along over the next fifteen novels. Circumstances seem not to allow anything more for a while, and we're not getting much else of him.

Edited March 4 by Returned

[Schizoposting]

4 hours ago, Qianweilian said:

I agree with @Frustration. I think Hoid was more fun when he was the mysterious character you had to search for, that type that clearly has secrets. Now though, especially after the stint with Jasnah, he just feels like another worldhopper, e.g. Shashara. The mystery and sort of “untouchableness” made the few moments in earlier Stormlight books where he got emotional very impactful.

Well, Brandon does not do mystery, or rather, if there's a mystery, there's going to be an answer. Also, a big theme in the Cosmere is the humanization of divinity, as seen in WaT. Personally, I think that as a "mysterious characters" Hoid is boring and uninteresting.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

I'm already tired of Hoid, though I still like the character and his role in the broad narrative well enough. Tress was the final straw for me-- I hated the narrative voice (its mechanical efforts at humor felt forced to me, and mostly attempted through formulaic, overwrought non-sequiturs aspirationally called "whimsical"; I liked only a small portion of them and the volume of ones I didn't like really piled up) and it was just so constant in those qualities throughout. It was far less of an issue for me in Yumi, which I liked quite a bit more as a result, but the damage has already been done. I don't need any more narration from Hoid, ever, even while I'm open to further instances of it being done more to my liking. (Side note: I appreciate that the style in Tress was specifically an experiment in Hoid's voice for future works, and not one that is likely to be re-used).

Have you read the preview chapters for The Fires of December? Because, in my honest opinion, the prose there is absolutely incredible.

I understand why people might not like Hoid's humor (although personally I'm fine with it) or Tress, but this doesn't mean that it's inherently bad.

3 hours ago, Returned said:

He's now way too Tom Bombadil, with nearly all the knowledge there is to have and abundant, flexible power far beyond any other non-Shard character, but he arbitrarily can't/won't use it and/or arbitrarily fails in his direct interventions (the contract comes to mind). So he's sort of become a plot device to move other characters along, and an increasingly conspicuous one-- compare his presentation in Mistborn era 1 with his presentation in Oathbringer. I like the drips of humanity we see, like his affection for Shallan. But Hoid is one of the most "held in reserve" pieces of Cosmere lore across all the books, which makes it very likely that any appearance he makes will have only the tiniest morsels of his character, backstory, and his own plot alongside the large portions of Bombadil-ing and plot-devicery. After all, Dragonsteel is coming last, if ever.

All plots are arbitrary. Hoid's machinations are no less contrived than the fact that Kaladin always swears the next ideal when he needs to, or that Sazed just so happened to be capable of taking up Harmony when it was necessary. I think that what people don't understand is that realistic plots are boring, because they are just far too random. Just look at the last 5 years—it would make for a terrible story.

[Frustration]

4 hours ago, Returned said:

He's now way too Tom Bombadil, with nearly all the knowledge there is to have and abundant, flexible power far beyond any other non-Shard character, but he arbitrarily can't/won't use it and/or arbitrarily fails in his direct interventions (the contract comes to mind). So he's sort of become a plot device to move other characters along, and an increasingly conspicuous one-- compare his presentation in Mistborn era 1 with his presentation in Oathbringer. I like the drips of humanity we see, like his affection for Shallan. But Hoid is one of the most "held in reserve" pieces of Cosmere lore across all the books, which makes it very likely that any appearance he makes will have only the tiniest morsels of his character, backstory, and his own plot alongside the large portions of Bombadil-ing and plot-devicery. After all, Dragonsteel is coming last, if ever.

Okay you had me until this part. You cannot talk about my boy Tom Bombadil like that.

25 minutes ago, Schizoposting said:

All plots are arbitrary. Hoid's machinations are no less contrived than the fact that Kaladin always swears the next ideal when he needs to, or that Sazed just so happened to be capable of taking up Harmony when it was necessary. I think that what people don't understand is that realistic plots are boring, because they are just far too random. Just look at the last 5 years—it would make for a terrible story.

I think Kaladin failing to say the fourth ideal in OB to be one of the most realistic, and because of that one of the most important moments in that book.

I think that you might find realistic plots boring, or that the last five years to make a terrible story. I must disagree.

Yes there are a lot of contrivances in the Cosmere, but just showing that the problem exists in other places doesn't make it not an issue.

[Returned he/him]

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

Have you read the preview chapters for The Fires of December? Because, in my honest opinion, the prose there is absolutely incredible.

I understand why people might not like Hoid's humor (although personally I'm fine with it) or Tress, but this doesn't mean that it's inherently bad.

I haven't, since I usually try to avoid preview releases of things. I didn't say that Hoid's humor was bad, only that it's kind of formulaic. If you don't like the structure of one joke it's likely that you will not enjoy a lot of subsequent jokes since they're likely to share it. There are some that I like a lot (I liked the brief discussion of the words "literally" and "ironic"), but others less so. The non-sequitur is especially problematic for this sort of thing, since it inherently does not have a setup or relation to any of the surrounding context. No shame to anyone that likes them, in general or in particular instances.

1 hour ago, Schizoposting said:

All plots are arbitrary. Hoid's machinations are no less contrived than the fact that Kaladin always swears the next ideal when he needs to, or that Sazed just so happened to be capable of taking up Harmony when it was necessary. I think that what people don't understand is that realistic plots are boring, because they are just far too random. Just look at the last 5 years—it would make for a terrible story.

This is not a meaningful point to make, though I appreciate what you are saying. What you seem not to understand about my use of the word "arbitrary" in this context is that I am describing plot points that are incongruent with surrounding details but constraining events that the author wants the plot to have. It's Spider-Man without the radioactive spider being part of the story: he just has some abilities with no explanation nor relation to any events. That the radioactive spider is every bit as made-up as the rest doesn't change the fact that its presence in the story gives structure and context to other parts. It's the Alethi war against the Parshendi without ever mentioning Gavilar's assassination, or indeed without that event even having taken place. This is one of the major things that separates Hoid from Kaladin or Sazed in the books so far: the latter two develop and their choices matter as they experience and affect events, because the stories are fundamentally about them, their choices, and their development. Their experiences and contexts matter to the outcomes. So far, Hoid's don't.

Hoid isn't developing a whole lot yet because these aren't his stories, and fair enough. But he's getting more and more centrality without developing and without impacting the plot much, and the reason for that is dominated by the fact that his secrets and mysteries are being held back so that they can appear in later works. Hoid's machinations are more contrived (though no less arbitrary) because he knows enough to solve your problem, and likely has the power and skill to solve your problem, but he won't. Sometimes because he can't (the Dawnshard explanation serves well here, especially when we get another angle on it from Nomad), sometimes because he mustn't, and sometimes because he doesn't want to. Tress did a great job of threading this needle with his curse. RoW and WaT didn't bother to address it. The story would be very similar if he never appeared again after Oathbringer.

There are absolutely amazing stories to be told based on the last 5 years (I'm not quite sure what you're referencing, but it's generally true that there are stories to be found). Some people don't like the genres, but there are very interesting biographies and stories about real events. The quality of the story depends on a variety of things like (but not limited to) themes, events, complementary and contrastive elements, juxtaposing and connecting those things, method of narration, and so much more. The problem isn't reality nor its dullness but the ability to identify the pieces that make a good story and then express them in ways that highlight the story and its goodness.

It's true that I don't want to see a real-time view of every element of, say, Wax's life. I don't care about seeing him prepare his taxes or experience every single meal because those aren't inherently the interesting bits. But I did like seeing him go through the accounts ledgers with Steris because it expressed information about both characters and their context, was written in an engaging enough way, fit in with surrounding events well enough, and didn't take up that many lines of text.

 

Quote

Okay you had me until this part. You cannot talk about my boy Tom Bombadil like that.

@Frustration If it makes you feel better, I'm talking about Tolkien more than Tommy Exposition.

Edited March 4 by Returned

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Returned said:

 

@Frustration If it makes you feel better, I'm talking about Tolkien more than Tommy Exposition.

Who is Tommy Exposition?

[Returned he/him]

Just now, Frustration said:

Who is Tommy Exposition?

My friend's nickname for Tom Bombadil (I should have explained that in the post, I'm just so used to that friend saying it my brain short-circuited on the idea that anyone might not be familiar with it).

[Aliroz-The-Confused]

With regards to Tom Bombadil, I like what Tolkien did there.  Some characters serve the work by contributing to the narrative.  Some characters serve the work by contributing to the tone.  Some do both, or neither, or other things.

As an adult, I appreciate how Tolkien uses Tom Bombadil to regulate the pacing and keep the story from being too frightening for children.  The atmosphere, worldbuilding, and the poetry going on there is wonderful.

It doesn't mean I don't feel the eight-year-old in me throwing a fit when I get to chapter seven of The Fellowship Of The Ring, though.  My inner child does NOT want to settle down and take a nap (it was just getting good!  There's adventure!  This is boring!),  is NOT relieved each time the hobbits get to safety (okay, maybe a little bit), and is NOT scared of the ringwraiths, thank you very much.

 

EDIT:  I don't have fatigue for the character of Hoid.  I guess he's my anti-catharsis/anti-comfort character.  No real reason why.  I adored Tress of the Emerald Sea, so perhaps I'm the target audience for stories where "Hoid is an insane cursed fool on a pirate ship"-type stuff happens, just as you guys are the target audience for The Stormlight Archive.  Something for everyone, I guess.

Edited March 5 by Aliroz-The-Confused

[Qianweilian He/him]

31 minutes ago, Aliroz-The-Confused said:

As an adult, I appreciate how Tolkien uses Tom Bombadil to regulate the pacing and keep the story from being too frightening for children.  The atmosphere, worldbuilding, and the poetry going on there is wonderful.

I don’t believe Tom Bombadil exists the keep the story non-frightening. I agree the encounter is great for the atmosphere, though.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

On 3/4/2026 at 11:11 AM, Frustration said:

Hard disagree, I've found that Hoid was far more enjoyable when we got less of him. The more 'humanization' that he gets the less interesting I find him.

Big ups on this. As @Qianweiliansaid, I think it was a bad move when Hoid stepped forward from where characters like Khris and Nazh live as neat things to notice one of them is at a party or driving a coach or something. He's also okay when he tells a story to a character for a moment but I literally could not stand reading Tress. Oh, sure, there is a character named Hoid in the story who is doing whatever slapstick. But since the narration is in the smug prick who knows better than you style that is how he normally talks; he is always there in his normal (and disagreeable to me) form.

I wanted to read Yumi and The Nightmare Painter because I thought the premises was neat. Bu then it is written in that lousy Hoid voice, with the narration constantly assuming the reader's reading of events.

Oh and I didn't care for the premise of Tress. I think nobles deserve their loveless marriages and anyone born into an aristocracy should first think of how many lives they can save or better with their formal relations before seeking romantic love. They can always keep a man or woman on the side (if anyone knows a better way to refer to a male version of a mistress, let a body know) for intimacy and emotional reasons if they really need to and their legal partner can be brought to understand and accept that. I actually started to imagine a world where one of the women Charlie was trying to offend just asked him if he was doing this because his heart belonged to someone else, and then that woman just explaining that this is why the practice of mistresses exist.

The idea of a girl who looks like she is going to be in a storybook romance running into the "Well, due to circumstances, you have to be the other woman" and seeing her deal with that would be amazing to me. I love my stories of people navigating power and privilege while still being full of passions and humanity.

On 3/4/2026 at 5:56 PM, Returned said:

(I liked the brief discussion of the words "literally" and "ironic")

Have you ever read Homestuck? I distinctly recall a bit in it where some characters have a comedic exchange about the nature of irony. It is actually important character building there, since Dave and Dirk Strider are both so much about how irony, imitation, and disavowal can become a huge part of a person.

Edited March 6 by ParaTulip

[Returned he/him]

4 hours ago, ParaTulip said:

Have you ever read Homestuck? I distinctly recall a bit in it where some characters have a comedic exchange about the nature of irony. It is actually important character building there, since Dave and Dirk Strider are both so much about how irony, imitation, and disavowal can become a huge part of a person.

I haven't, but I'll add it to my list. Thanks for the recommendation!

Going back to Tom Bombadil for a moment, I want to clarify that my complaints are tongue-in-cheek. Tolkien is someone who wrote The Silmarillion for backstory-- tossing in a character just to give exposition isn't something that fits his writing, almost certainly not something that he would need or choose to do. Anything that might seem that way probably has deeper and subtler reasons for appearing than that, certainly including Tom. I'm not an ardent enough LotR reader to give good account of that sort of thing very often, though.

[gryn.heartsmyth]

On 3/3/2026 at 1:31 PM, gryn.heartsmyth said:

My dear friend had a great take on my mpression:

"The Hoid fatigue is real and it makes complete sense given where you are.He's the character who has been alive longer than anyone should be, carries knowledge that isolates him, can't fully connect even when he desperately wants to, gets punished specifically *because* of his nature and choices, and keeps showing up anyway. The "shard cursed" framing is exact — he has capabilities and a role that preclude the ordinary forms of belonging.

The catharsis works until it doesn't. At some point the identification stops being relieving and starts being *more of the same*. You're looking for the story where someone like that gets to be held rather than just witnessed or used, and Sanderson structurally can't write that yet because Hoid's arc requires the suffering to still be unresolved. The cosmere needs him in pain for plot reasons.Warbreaker is interesting to name specifically. That book has a warmth most of Sanderson's work doesn't — Lightsong, the whole color/life/breath metaphysics, the way death and meaning interact. Sounds like it doesn't repel you for quality reasons but for proximity reasons. Too close to something."

real smart friend. maybe I should just get it over with and get warbreaker pilled and pretend it is how people and things are in the world

Alright so now a few days afterwards: I absolutely love the new collection and I was a fool for cursing it. Though that is who I am: I love being a fool who curses things he will undoubtedly love. There is too much of Hoid in me to not get some boiling reactions about him. 

On 3/3/2026 at 10:55 PM, Schizoposting said:

Honestly? He deserves it—as a mysterious omniscient, snarky, character, he runs into the very real risk of becoming annoying. Having him be brought down to earth, so to speak, humanizes him, thus preventing him from just being a "Gary Stu".

BTW, if you're looking for something with "warmth", I would recommend that you read Tress, if you haven't already. It's the Cosmere version of The Princess Bride.

Loved Tress