What Invasion and Occupation Plan Would the Unites States Military use to Fully Take Over Roshar?

[Myst He/Him]

The problem I see is that Windrunners negate almost all of modern weaponry. A reverse lashing would pull everything towards it, causing it to miss, meaning you’d have to start using bombs and wide area attacks to hope for damage, but that’s not even a guarantee. That negates most long-range attacks, including missiles, if the lashing is strong enough. 

In close combat, any invested being would win, simply because they can heal. As long as they have investiture, obviously.

Planes aren’t much better a Windrunner and/or Skybreaker could easily out-maneuver and go faster than any plane. They can change and turn rapidly, and stormlight would help them withstand the g-forces. They also have shard blades, which can easily destroy a plane, they simply stab through the cockpit

Battleships would probably be the best, as they can cause massive amounts of damage, even if they shots are redirected. While a shardblad could cut through the hull, compartmentalization would keep it from sinking, meaning they’d have to try for a lot longer, leaving them exposed. Dustbringers could probably use division to get around that though.

Overall, the layout would go like this. Windrunners on defense with reverse lashings to interfere with bullets and missiles. Skybreakers to stop enemy planes and jets. Dustbringers to take down battleships, and the rest to fight as foot soldiers. Willshapers and Stonewards would be the best for that. Elsecallers and lightweavers could both provide sneak attacks as well as soul casting problematic stuff(tanks) into crystal or smoke. Edgedancers and Truthwatchers would be there to both heal the non-radiant and to bolster lines when needed. And then Bondsmiths would provide any and all stormlight needed.

I don’t see how the USA could possibly win without some terrible tactics on Roshars part. There fighting in weird environment as well, more oxygen and less gravity will mess with how they fights. The only possible way for them to win is to bond Spren of their own and fight back with surges, otherwise it’s super one-sided.

*I realize now I should’ve spoilered this for length.
 

Edited November 29, 2025 by Ookla the Broken

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

7 hours ago, Ookla the Broken said:

The problem I see is that Windrunners negate almost all of modern weaponry. A reverse lashing would pull everything towards it, causing it to miss, meaning you’d have to start using bombs and wide area attacks to hope for damage, but that’s not even a guarantee. That negates most long-range attacks, including missiles, if the lashing is strong enough. 

In close combat, any invested being would win, simply because they can heal. As long as they have investiture, obviously.

Planes aren’t much better a Windrunner and/or Skybreaker could easily out-maneuver and go faster than any plane. They can change and turn rapidly, and stormlight would help them withstand the g-forces. They also have shard blades, which can easily destroy a plane, they simply stab through the cockpit

Battleships would probably be the best, as they can cause massive amounts of damage, even if they shots are redirected. While a shardblad could cut through the hull, compartmentalization would keep it from sinking, meaning they’d have to try for a lot longer, leaving them exposed. Dustbringers could probably use division to get around that though.

Overall, the layout would go like this. Windrunners on defense with reverse lashings to interfere with bullets and missiles. Skybreakers to stop enemy planes and jets. Dustbringers to take down battleships, and the rest to fight as foot soldiers. Willshapers and Stonewards would be the best for that. Elsecallers and lightweavers could both provide sneak attacks as well as soul casting problematic stuff(tanks) into crystal or smoke. Edgedancers and Truthwatchers would be there to both heal the non-radiant and to bolster lines when needed. And then Bondsmiths would provide any and all stormlight needed.

I don’t see how the USA could possibly win without some terrible tactics on Roshars part. There fighting in weird environment as well, more oxygen and less gravity will mess with how they fights. The only possible way for them to win is to bond Spren of their own and fight back with surges, otherwise it’s super one-sided.

*I realize now I should’ve spoilered this for length.
 

Now this is an interesting question, how would flamethrowers react?

There are no war crimes on Roshar.

All right, so we've discussed a lot about who would win, but I think the other part of the question is interesting.

What would the U.S. do? @TheFlatScadrian, where are we coming in from?

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Hoppy said:

Now this is an interesting question, how would flamethrowers react?

There are no war crimes on Roshar.

All right, so we've discussed a lot about who would win, but I think the other part of the question is interesting.

What would the U.S. do? @TheFlatScadrian, where are we coming in from?

If I were the U.S. I would run but If you can’t do that Guerilla warfare would be the only way just lone soldiers with flame bombs just liek catching radiants alone and blowing them up and making sure they stay on fire until they run out or investiture  

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

27 minutes ago, Ookla The Vessel Of Honor said:

If I were the U.S. I would run but If you can’t do that Guerilla warfare would be the only way just lone soldiers with flame bombs just liek catching radiants alone and blowing them up and making sure they stay on fire until they run out or investiture  

I mean, Jasnah literally lit the AIR on fire, and she was fine. If a Radiant has Shardplate, I think they're good.

Also, why would the Radiants go alone if this was happening? They're smart.

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Hoppy said:

I mean, Jasnah literally lit the AIR on fire, and she was fine. If a Radiant has Shardplate, I think they're good.

Also, why would the Radiants go alone if this was happening? They're smart.

That’s true i I don’t know if there is literally any hope for the U.S. without like nukes bc the only way for them to kill radiants is damage them until they’re investiture runs out so yah 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

I also dont think just... spawning in the ocean would be that great for any army...

And how big is the portal? Could someone fit an aircraft carrier through?

[Returned he/him]

I think that there's nothing the U.S. military would be able to do, ultimately. By definition Rosharans have access to every mundane thing that the U.S. military would have, at least in theory (if not necessarily the specific knowledge, like engineering or software development abilities), but without the need for fixed manufacturing centers or supply lines. And then the Rosharans get access to magic which does lots of things that the U.S. military could never possibly do, like manipulate gravity or negate/promote friction, transform bullets and fighter jet fuel, create perfect illusions that fool all sensor equipment, etc. Spren are undetectable spies, and some of them can also manipulate physical objects (imagine a Cryptic slipping into a munitions warehouse and triggering explosives). And a huge amount of U.S. military ability is in logistics and infrastructure which cannot be duplicated on Roshar (they're not getting geosynchronous-orbit satellites and high-bandwidth communications technology to target precision missiles and munitions, etc., though there will be workarounds for at least some of the deficiencies). The Highstorms/Everstorm would be problematic for the invaders as well.

The only hope for a more advanced, conventional military seems like it would be overwhelming force on limited targets (such as blasting a Rosharan soldier or position with thousands of rounds of ammunition per second, overwhelming healing, Plate, or disappearances). But I don't think that that would be something they could really bring to bear, since a handful of Radiants or Fused could annihilate any conventional position and/or destroy or sabotage most (if not all) of the materiel. I don't think it's plausible that the invaders would be able to protect their ingress portal, and with that gone so too is their invasion. Encasing the portal in solid titanium, messing with gravity, friction, pressure, heat, atmospheric composition, and so, so many other options would seriously complicate any ability to travel through it or secure it. Access to aluminum is another advantage the invaders would have but I don't see how it could be used in such a way as to negate all of the vulnerabilities that come with facing magic that you can't imitate.

  

15 hours ago, Ookla The Silver said:

Damn hard to burn water.

Not even remotely true, and a Soulcaster makes this beyond trivial. If the water surrounding the portal is transformed to various types of oil, or worse a highly reactive metal like cesium, and the base is on fire/exploded while the surrounding water burns.

Edited November 29, 2025 by Returned

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

4 minutes ago, Returned said:

I think that there's nothing the U.S. military would be able to do, ultimately. By definition Rosharans have access to every mundane thing that the U.S. military would have, at least in theory (if not necessarily the specific knowledge, like engineering or software development abilities), but without the need for fixed manufacturing centers or supply lines. And then the Rosharans get access to magic which does lots of things that the U.S. military could never possibly do, like manipulate gravity or negate/promote friction, transform bullets and fighter jet fuel, create perfect illusions that fool all sensor equipment, etc. Spren are undetectable spies, and some of them can also manipulate physical objects (imagine a Cryptic slipping into a munitions warehouse and triggering explosives). And a huge amount of U.S. military ability is in logistics and infrastructure which cannot be duplicated on Roshar (they're not getting geosynchronous-orbit satellites and high-bandwidth communications technology to target precision missiles and munitions, etc., though there will be workarounds for at least some of the deficiencies). The Highstorms/Everstorm would be problematic for the invaders as well.

The only hope for a more advanced, conventional military seems like it would be overwhelming force on limited targets (such as blasting a Rosharan soldier or position with thousands of rounds of ammunition per second, overwhelming healing, Plate, or disappearances). But I don't think that that would be something they could really bring to bear, since a handful of Radiants or Fused could annihilate any conventional position and/or destroy or sabotage most (if not all) of the materiel. I don't think it's plausible that the invaders would be able to protect their ingress portal, and with that gone so too is their invasion. Encasing the portal in solid titanium, messing with gravity, friction, pressure, heat, atmospheric composition, and so, so many other options would seriously complicate any ability to travel through it or secure it. Access to aluminum is another advantage the invaders would have but I don't see how it could be used in such a way as to negate all of the vulnerabilities that come with facing magic that you can't imitate.

  

Not even remotely true, and a Soulcaster makes this beyond trivial. If the water surrounding the portal is transformed to various types of oil, or worse a highly reactive metal like cesium, and the base is on fire/exploded.

Agreed also should we assume the invaders know that aluminum can stop shard blades and what not bc if they do that would be their only hope

[Myst He/Him]

If the USA could ever take it over, it’d be extremely resources intensive, and the loss of life would be extreme. They’d can’t disrupt supply chains due to soulcasting, so they have to target the radiants and fused. In order to kill one they’d have to first, separate it from other radiants/fused, and then focus it till its stormlight runs out. The first would be hard, with Edgedancers, windrunners, Skybreakers and Dustbringers having unpredictable movements, but they could focus other orders. 
The main goal would be to focus soulcasters, and then civilians, as then they can fight a battle of attrition. Each radiant having to farm is one less radiant fighting them.

this would be extremely risky, and the USA probably couldn’t do it, but this is probably their best bet to take over Roshar

they’d have to ignore the Geneva convention though. Gas wouldn’t be a good weapon, as radiants don’t need to breath. This just isn’t a good situation, everything would be very risky and costly in lives and resources 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

12 minutes ago, Returned said:

I think that there's nothing the U.S. military would be able to do, ultimately. By definition Rosharans have access to every mundane thing that the U.S. military would have, at least in theory (if not necessarily the specific knowledge, like engineering or software development abilities), but without the need for fixed manufacturing centers or supply lines. And then the Rosharans get access to magic which does lots of things that the U.S. military could never possibly do, like manipulate gravity or negate/promote friction, transform bullets and fighter jet fuel, create perfect illusions that fool all sensor equipment, etc. Spren are undetectable spies, and some of them can also manipulate physical objects (imagine a Cryptic slipping into a munitions warehouse and triggering explosives). And a huge amount of U.S. military ability is in logistics and infrastructure which cannot be duplicated on Roshar (they're not getting geosynchronous-orbit satellites and high-bandwidth communications technology to target precision missiles and munitions, etc., though there will be workarounds for at least some of the deficiencies). The Highstorms/Everstorm would be problematic for the invaders as well.

The only hope for a more advanced, conventional military seems like it would be overwhelming force on limited targets (such as blasting a Rosharan soldier or position with thousands of rounds of ammunition per second, overwhelming healing, Plate, or disappearances). But I don't think that that would be something they could really bring to bear, since a handful of Radiants or Fused could annihilate any conventional position and/or destroy or sabotage most (if not all) of the materiel. I don't think it's plausible that the invaders would be able to protect their ingress portal, and with that gone so too is their invasion. Encasing the portal in solid titanium, messing with gravity, friction, pressure, heat, atmospheric composition, and so, so many other options would seriously complicate any ability to travel through it or secure it. Access to aluminum is another advantage the invaders would have but I don't see how it could be used in such a way as to negate all of the vulnerabilities that come with facing magic that you can't imitate.

  

Not even remotely true, and a Soulcaster makes this beyond trivial. If the water surrounding the portal is transformed to various types of oil, or worse a highly reactive metal like cesium, and the base is on fire/exploded.

One of the main things we have to worry about is knowledge.

Roshar is still in a fairly early civilization period, and just doesn't have the knowledge for most of the impressive magical feats they could perform.

As @Ookla The Silver said, there are only around 5000 invested entities (most of which don't even like each other!). He estimated 1200-1300 total radiants, most of which are inexperienced with their power, have only sworn the first ideal, or are just squires.

The US has access to some pretty big bombs, even without nukes.

7 minutes ago, Ookla The Vessel Of Honor said:

Agreed also should we assume the invaders know that aluminum can stop shard blades and what not bc if they do that would be their only hope

We should, as the original post states:

On 11/26/2025 at 9:28 PM, TheFlatScadrian said:

The United States knows just enough, through espionage and covert surveillance, about Roshar to anticipate it, attack it, and have a broad-strokes occupation plan in place. Not "First Contact" but not "Perfect Awareness", either.

And given the fact that this is during RoW,

On 11/26/2025 at 9:28 PM, TheFlatScadrian said:

landscape similar to the end of Oathbringer and during Rhythm of War.

we should be able to safely assume that the Fused and Radiants are still currently at war, leading to weakened forces on both sides.

We shouldn't underestimate just how much stuff the US has.

4 minutes ago, Ookla the Broken said:

If the USA could ever take it over, it’d be extremely resources intensive, and the loss of life would be extreme. They’d can’t disrupt supply chains due to soulcasting, so they have to target the radiants and fused. In order to kill one they’d have to first, separate it from other radiants/fused, and then focus it till its stormlight runs out. The first would be hard, with Edgedancers, windrunners, Skybreakers and Dustbringers having unpredictable movements, but they could focus other orders. 
The main goal would be to focus soulcasters, and then civilians, as then they can fight a battle of attrition. Each radiant having to farm is one less radiant fighting them.

this would be extremely risky, and the USA probably couldn’t do it, but this is probably their best bet to take over Roshar

they’d have to ignore the Geneva convention though. Gas wouldn’t be a good weapon, as radiants don’t need to breath. This just isn’t a good situation, everything would be very risky and costly in lives and resources 

I mean, it's not on earth, is it?

@Ookla The Silver's great (and ignored) argument below:

17 hours ago, Ookla The Silver said:

Honestly, it would be really easy for the modern US military to take over Roshar. Other than Radiants, fused, and Shardblades, Rosharans have no way to attack a plane, or tank. 

Presumbly, they'd bomb major cities first. That's common practice, which would seriously mess up the flow of goods for roshar.

The Us military has two massive benefit over the rosharan one- logistics and aluminum. 

"oh, but rosharans can teleport" one mights say. Through ten, easily findable and one central, bombable place. We saw how the fused were able to overtake oathgates- whose to say the us can't just carpet bomb it into nothing? Windrunners would struggle to be at every place at once, and our ships and land vehicles can go so much faster than rosharan ones.  Once you cripple Urithiru or the oathgates, they're dead in the water. No more movement of people, except by small parties or giant slow moving aircraft. 

The second, funnier problem is the fact that a lot of modern everything is made from aluminum. The investiture immune metal. Now whether the exact alloy the US military uses has all of aluminum powers is unknown, but for the sake of argument, that's by far the funniest. 

I'd guess that bombs and gas weapons burn through stormlight pretty well.


There are not that many radiant, frankly. There are 50 Windrunners (300 including Squires) and they're the most populous order by far (Perhaps excluding the skybreakers). Knowing that windruners get double the amount of squires as other orders, there is at most 122.5 (250/2* 49) on average per order. Probably less. There's something to the magintude of 1282 radiants in the world. 

There are more fused than this in the world. I'd warrant a 3:1 ratio sounds good? So that's ~5000 invested healers in the world. 

5000 people will not be able to protect a world. 

Edited November 29, 2025 by Ookla the Dokja

[Myst He/Him]

2 minutes ago, Ookla the Dokja said:

One of the main things we have to worry about is knowledge.

Roshar is still in a fairly early civilization period, and just doesn't have the knowledge for most of the impressive magical feats they could perform.

As @Ookla The Silver said, there are only around 5000 invested entities (most of which don't even like each other!). He estimated 1200-1300 total radiants, most of which are inexperienced with their power, have only sworn the first ideal, or are just squires.

The US has access to some pretty big bombs, even without nukes.

We should, as the original post states:

And given the fact that this is during RoW,

we should be able to safely assume that the Fused and Radiants are still currently at war, leading to weakened forces on both sides.

We shouldn't underestimate just how much stuff the US has.

You are right, but I feel like that an invasion by the USA would make them unite. They wouldn’t like each other, and it’d be hard to get along, but both sides want to rule Roshar, and that can’t happen if the USA takes it over. So yeah, they might be able to do some significant damage before they realize the threat and unite, but after that, I feel like Roshar would win. 
Aluminum would be weird, because yes, it stops shard blades, but it’s a fairly weak metal, and the USA doesn’t have Scadrial’s expertise on the different alloys that do and don’t block it, so they’d have to choose between having a sheet that breaks by getting bunched and a sheet that breaks by a shard blade. They could get around that by plating normal tanks in aluminum, but it would be relatively easy to scrape through it, or simply to attack through the bullet proof glass, or the cameras. They need one of those two see, and that can’t be aluminum, so they’d can just stab that.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Broken said:

You are right, but I feel like that an invasion by the USA would make them unite. They wouldn’t like each other, and it’d be hard to get along, but both sides want to rule Roshar, and that can’t happen if the USA takes it over. So yeah, they might be able to do some significant damage before they realize the threat and unite, but after that, I feel like Roshar would win. 
Aluminum would be weird, because yes, it stops shard blades, but it’s a fairly weak metal, and the USA doesn’t have Scadrial’s expertise on the different alloys that do and don’t block it, so they’d have to choose between having a sheet that breaks by getting bunched and a sheet that breaks by a shard blade. They could get around that by plating normal tanks in aluminum, but it would be relatively easy to scrape through it, or simply to attack through the bullet proof glass, or the cameras. They need one of those two see, and that can’t be aluminum, so they’d can just stab that.

I feel like you are overestimating their dislike. Both sides see the others as either pure evil or literal demons.

Neither side would ever agree to work with their enemy, especially after the damage each had caused to each other. If it occurs during the invasion of Uirthiru, then the radiants have no chance.

I feel like the US could just put aluminum over their already kevlar or whatever

Uniting would make them a threat, but I just really dont see that happening.

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Dokja said:

One of the main things we have to worry about is knowledge.

Roshar is still in a fairly early civilization period, and just doesn't have the knowledge for most of the impressive magical feats they could perform.

As @Ookla The Silver said, there are only around 5000 invested entities (most of which don't even like each other!). He estimated 1200-1300 total radiants, most of which are inexperienced with their power, have only sworn the first ideal, or are just squires.

The US has access to some pretty big bombs, even without nukes.

We should, as the original post states:

And given the fact that this is during RoW,

we should be able to safely assume that the Fused and Radiants are still currently at war, leading to weakened forces on both sides.

We shouldn't underestimate just how much stuff the US has.

I mean, it's not on earth, is it?

@Ookla The Silver's great (and ignored) argument below:

Ok if the U.S. has enough time to coat their planes bullets bombs and ships then I would say they win

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

On 11/26/2025 at 9:28 PM, TheFlatScadrian said:

The United States knows just enough, through espionage and covert surveillance, about Roshar to anticipate it, attack it, and have a broad-strokes occupation plan in place. Not "First Contact" but not "Perfect Awareness", either.

See above.

3 minutes ago, Ookla The Vessel Of Honor said:

Ok if the U.S. has enough time to coat their planes bullets bombs and ships then I would say they win

[Honors Spectral Image She/her]

Because like yah there’s nothing the Rosharans can rly do when they can’t effect the other army I would say their best hope would be to try to transport everyone in too shadesmar and hope for the best

[Returned he/him]

This is a broader point, but I also think people are overestimating what the U.S. military can accomplish in general. Its ability to militarily control other countries on Earth has been mixed, at best, since at least the 1950s. Taking control of an entire continent, never mind planet, is orders of magnitude more difficult. While the military has a lot of destructive potential I think that key variables are going to be the size of the portal (how much of the U.S.'s industrial might can actually get to Roshar in some span of time) and how long they have to prepare before being noticed (can they be entrenched in a stable, defensible position before hostilities begin?). I don't know if we can game those out meaningfully here. But outside of immediate, overwhelming destruction (which I'm not sure they could achieve over all of Roshar) I don't see this as being a slam dunk for the invaders. Without constant resupply and reinforcement through the portal I don't think the invaders would have any chance at all.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Dokja said:

@Ookla The Silver's great (and ignored) argument below:

What about it has been ignored? The logistical capabilities of the invaders are seriously hampered compared to what they can do on Earth due to lack of infrastructure (no satellites, serious difficulties in requiring all materiel and most supplies to be shipped in through the one portal, difficulties in building and stationing due to Highstorms/Everstorm, and similar). There are adaptations possible for most of that, but those themselves become vulnerabilities upon which much of the invasion is depending. It's an interesting problem.

As for "everything is made of aluminum", no it is not. A lot of things can be made out of it but there are reasons many things are not. The frame of an airplane can absolutely be made of aluminum (and basically always is, as far as I know). The machinery of a jet engine, not entirely. Your electronics don't use gold rather than aluminum because people want them to be pretty. The same goes for many munitions. Aluminum food or medicine? Not so good. There is certainly a lot of metal in modern materiel but it's not all metal. Aluminum coating could do a lot for a variety of purposes but isn't going to protect every possible vulnerability, and can't even approach something like the surrounding environment being turned to smoke or fire or exploding. Ditto for lashing boulders to fly over fortifications and then drop, or worse Cosmere-specific munitions like light/anti-light bombs. An all-aluminum airplane with no non-shielded surface (which I don't think could exist, with the engines at least needing a lot of air flow for cooling) is still going to struggle if the air around it becomes too thin for it to fly through or turns into something that ruins its engines mid-flight.

I also think that far too little attention has been paid to the fact that Rosharans can imitate the technology they find while the invaders could not. Navani and Jasnah with a handful of guns and bullets are going to be able to create their own firearms in short order, and faster and better to boot. Simply observing an airplane for a minute would put Rosharan engineers on the path to powered flight. A Radiant can form a spren into any shape and configuration with a thought, creating an on-demand, instantaneous barrier which cannot be destroyed or even damaged. The invaders aren't likely to be able to imitate that at all. A pair of Radiants could create a tungsten slug or depleted uranium round and then lash it to extreme speed towards a target-- no preparation needed, no supply line, no machinery, just some Stormlight and a couple of seconds. There's not much defense against that.

We've also so far ignored some key things which mattered a lot in the wars on Roshar, such as the Unmade. What is the U.S. military going to do about Ashertmarn, Re-Shephir, or Sja-anat inserting themselves into a invader's base? How well can Rosharans, via Moelach, Renarin-style Truthwatchers, or some Diagram-esque person, foresee the invaders' maneuvers and abilities, especially given that the invaders have no similar capability of their own to frustrate or counteract it? Rosharan spies, whether Lightweavers or Masked Ones, seem like they would be extremely difficult to counteract (especially with spren for support). With even a vague guess at how various sensor equipment works (like radar or sonar) a Lightweaver can really destroy any sort of surveillance/reconnaissance with ease while the invaders might never be able to fool, or even understand, something like a warning fabrial.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Dokja said:

I feel like you are overestimating their dislike. Both sides see the others as either pure evil or literal demons.

They've already worked together to great effect multiple times. Navani and Raboniel, Kaladin and various Singers/Fused, Venli, Eshonai, and more (though those are the most significant ones). A military attacking them both would be a powerful motivation, but any alliance would probably be tenuous and breakable. If the invaders were able to capitalize on that it would be very helpful to them but it seems as though they would be enemies to everyone, so how would they be able to do so? I have to think they would invest in the effort, I just struggle to think of how they could do so successfully.

Edited November 29, 2025 by Returned

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

1 hour ago, Ookla The Vessel Of Honor said:

Agreed also should we assume the invaders know that aluminum can stop shard blades and what not bc if they do that would be their only hope

I mean, if you hit an aluminum shield with an unbreakable sword enough times, it will break the shield, even with it being a Shardblade.

Post-Oathbringer?

So Roshar has Nightblood.

[Myst He/Him]

39 minutes ago, Ookla the Hoppy said:

I mean, if you hit an aluminum shield with an unbreakable sword enough times, it will break the shield, even with it being a Shardblade.

Post-Oathbringer?

So Roshar has Nightblood.

I didn’t even think of Nightblood. Nightblood could probably straight up destroy the portal.

[Through the Living Hopper He/Him]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Broken said:

I didn’t even think of Nightblood. Nightblood could probably straight up destroy the portal.

Or Szeth could hold Nightblood beneath the portal and just have everything fall onto it.  

[Born of Mist He/Him]

On 11/27/2025 at 12:28 AM, TheFlatScadrian said:

Hello, everybody.

I recently read the Stormlight Archive for the first time (I know, I'm a tad late) and it's been a ride. I can honestly say it's the best high fantasy series I've ever read.

But an impertinent, irrelevant question has continued to form in my mind the longer I read. Could the U.S. Military take this place over? 

(Yes, I am a huge nerd, why do you ask?)

I've seen threads discussing the logistical or technical aspects of similar ideas, but I wanted to tackle this topic from a new angle: a tactical one.

What invasion and occupation plan would the Unites States use to fully take over Roshar?

(And what would the timeline look like?)

My idea is to plan some sort of operation similar to Operation: Overlord or Operation: Downfall or even Operation: Desert Storm. Of course, there are some caveats:

1. The military has a "Spawn Point" in the ocean somewhere (We can discuss where) that all water and air-craft must enter Roshar from. Think of it as being an open, classical portal to Earth. 
2. The United States knows just enough, through espionage and covert surveillance, about Roshar to anticipate it, attack it, and have a broad-strokes occupation plan in place. Not "First Contact" but not "Perfect Awareness", either.
3. All Rosharan forces are available from any book, and, good or bad, are enemies until made friends. For the sake of simplicity we can assume this takes place in a landscape similar to the end of Oathbringer and during Rhythm of War.

There must be, for the sake of a fun discussion, a few handicaps as well:

1. No nuclear weapons, as that would be far too easy and make for a boring discussion.
2. No Shards, for the same reason.

So. What do we think?

(I've also linked the official 17th Shard Interactive Map of Roshar, for anyone interested: https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US)

Why did this pop into your head. I'm an expert on random thoughts and impulsive behaviors but I still don't understand how that's one of your first thoughts. (I'm not complaining, this looks cool)

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

I have revised my decision.

SA WINS!

[Nitpicking]

20 hours ago, Ookla The Vessel Of Honor said:

That’s true i I don’t know if there is literally any hope for the U.S. without like nukes bc the only way for them to kill radiants is damage them until they’re investiture runs out so yah 

Um, no. If you shoot a Radiant in the head with a modern sniper round, the head explodes. Radiants can heal a lot, but they aren't Hoid, who canonically can heal when only a cell culture is left.

Just asking: you folks do understand how fast modern missiles are? No Windrunner could match speeds with one to touch it and Lash it. Even if you think they can reach high Mach numbers (they can't) their reaction time isn't good enough. Also: there are only ~300 Windrunners by WaT times.

Some nice aluminum alloy casing on bullets, and two rounds destroy Plate. Just put aluminum needles in your claymore mine, and kill multiple Radiants by pushing one button.

Some of the messages here assume the US Soldiers, Airmen, and Sailors would be stupid and unable to learn. That is a bad assumption. (Note: if a Soldier selflessly tries to save someone, risking her own life, she might end up a Windrunner herself. Spren don't care about nationality.)

It's very standard military/political strategy to find local allies. The US forces would almost certainly ally with the Alethi coalition against the Singers, or vice-versa.

[TheFlatScadrian]

 

Wow! I left for a little while and there are a lot of replies! Thanks for all the chatter; this is one of my first posts.

Okay. So to answer some questions and/or misconceptions:

1. The portal is sort of just a way to describe a theoretical idea of a "spawn point" rather than a literal portal to America. From a Rosharan perspective it's more like: "In that general direction is where all the giant ships and flying fabrials come from." As funny as it would be for Szeth to hold Nightblood under an open portal and form what would effectively be a localized black hole, that's not quite what I had in mind. I sort of assumed it was South of Kharbranth, beyond the mouth of the Tarat Sea, but it could be anywhere. 
2. I also assume the United States has had spies and surveillance occurring for some time, but not too long, so anything that is common knowledge they know. Anything that is secret or even undiscovered, they don't. Although, I do find it likely that the affects of aluminum would be discovered eventually, if not immediately.

Some arguments of my own:

1. Soul casting is primarily based on perception, correct? Well, if the equipment of the United States even had beads in Shadesmar in the first place, how would it all be perceived? By the Rosharians, as dangerous, hateful weaponry slaughtering their ranks; by the Americans, as trusty, reliable hardware they use daily. A loyal, reliable soul with a superiority complex that is highly polarized against you? That's some of the hardest stuff to soulcast. It's why soulcasters don't just go to the front lines and turn everything into grape jelly already, in-world. (I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.)
2. Lashing is really Stormlight-intensive and probably a big problem for lashing huge amounts of metal at once. Dalinar's perpendicularity can't be open that long, or give that much power, and if they did it during Highstorm hours it's unlikely there'd even be any ships to find in the open ocean.
3. Windrunners and the Heavenly Ones fall to radar-tracking autocannons (Like my profile picture!) and most modern military aircraft (Which can detect enemy craft around the curvature of the earth), because it's hard to lash something you can't even see coming because it's moving so fast. I think that'd apply to most ordnance, bombs and bullets included. Ordinary rounds can down most other Radiants, simply because head and organ shots are most always kill shots. 

And for some fun aerodynamic reasons, the 20mm ELC rounds most commonly used by the Phalanx CIWS (But also compatible with C-RAM) are actually aluminum tipped, so they can annihilate even live shardplate in micro-seconds.

 

On 11/29/2025 at 5:59 PM, Ookla the Mistborn said:

Why did this pop into your head. I'm an expert on random thoughts and impulsive behaviors but I still don't understand how that's one of your first thoughts. (I'm not complaining, this looks cool)

To answer your question, my friend, It is simply because I'm a massive nerd, and when I see a detailed fantasy map, with cool magic to boot, I always find it fun! It more grew than appeared suddenly.

Edited December 1, 2025 by TheFlatScadrian

[Returned he/him]

4 hours ago, TheFlatScadrian said:

The portal is sort of just a way to describe a theoretical idea of a "spawn point" rather than a literal portal to America. From a Rosharan perspective it's more like: "In that general direction is where all the giant ships and flying fabrials come from." As funny as it would be for Szeth to hold Nightblood under an open portal and form what would effectively be a localized black hole, that's not quite what I had in mind. I sort of assumed it was South of Kharbranth, beyond the mouth of the Tarat Sea, but it could be anywhere. 

This changes everything, I think. Are we talking about a one-time transfer of soldiers and equipment to Roshar, and then the military is on its own with no (or very limited) resupply options? If so, how much is transferred before the conflict begins and how much can be delivered afterwards would radically change what the invaders can accomplish. Fuel and electricity might not be replaceable at all on Roshar, as well as high-tech items like missiles. Supply limitations would really put a clock on how long the invasion could take before most of their advantages evaporate. I'd also think that something like a carrier group on the water would be very vulnerable to magical commando raids targeting specific capabilities, like damaging a flight deck so that the airplanes can't use it. I also wonder if the invaders would ever learn about aluminum outside of its ability to block Shardblades. It seems like they'd have to know a lot about things like lashing or soulcasting to put together the broader picture in a way they could use.

4 hours ago, TheFlatScadrian said:

Soul casting is primarily based on perception, correct? Well, if the equipment of the United States even had beads in Shadesmar in the first place, how would it all be perceived? By the Rosharians, as dangerous, hateful weaponry slaughtering their ranks; by the Americans, as trusty, reliable hardware they use daily. A loyal, reliable soul with a superiority complex that is highly polarized against you? That's some of the hardest stuff to soulcast. It's why soulcasters don't just go to the front lines and turn everything into grape jelly already, in-world. (I could be wrong, so feel free to correct me.)

This raises an interesting question about how the invaders fit into Cosmere realmatics. Would the invading soldiers have cognitive representations? Would their equipment, coming from a place with no investiture component of matter, even have a representative bead in Shadesmar? If not, then no soulcasting would work at all on those objects. I don't think the rest would be as much of a concern, though. Living beings are hard to soulcast but still transformable. Jasnah does it in Kharbranth and near the Perpendicularity outside of Thaylen City she does it with trivial ease. Everything else doesn't seem to be able to resist her in any meaningful way.

As far as I know the reason soulcasters don't liquify enemy soldiers and equipment is that Radiant soulcasters (the only ones who can soulcast so freely) have so far been rare, there would be a lot of things to transform, and it's easier by far to just ignite the air around them (or do something else instead, but I do think there is a lot of arbitrary fluctuations in what soulcasters like Jasnah can accomplish, so who knows what the limits are?). Just soulcasting the air into a thick iron shell around something might make it unusable forever. For what it's worth, we see an extremely inexperienced and low-Oathed Shallan transform an entire ship into water, which seems like a bad precedent for a carrier group.

4 hours ago, TheFlatScadrian said:

Lashing is really Stormlight-intensive and probably a big problem for lashing huge amounts of metal at once. Dalinar's perpendicularity can't be open that long, or give that much power, and if they did it during Highstorm hours it's unlikely there'd even be any ships to find in the open ocean.

Why would they need to do this? We see a few large things lashed in the books (I think a boulder is largest?) but I'm not sure what tactics you're imagining or how they compare. For trying to lash invaders' heavy equipment I'd worry far more about lashing specific pieces of things to cause them to break more of the machinery or tear themselves apart. Better still, mess with their abrasion so that they won't work properly or as expected, perhaps disastrously so.

I'm not sure the ships would be hard to locate in a Highstorm, or at any time. If the invaders have cognitive representations then they could be casually tracked in Shadesmar, where the open ocean is walkable. They'd probably have spren tracking them all the time, something they would not be able to prevent or even know about.

4 hours ago, TheFlatScadrian said:

Windrunners and the Heavenly Ones fall to radar-tracking autocannons (Like my profile picture!) and most modern military aircraft (Which can detect enemy craft around the curvature of the earth), because it's hard to lash something you can't even see coming because it's moving so fast. I think that'd apply to most ordnance, bombs and bullets included. Ordinary rounds can down most other Radiants, simply because head and organ shots are most always kill shots. 

Could they do this on Roshar, though? How much of that real-world capability comes down to satellites and high-bandwidth, near-instantaneous communication? Even for things that can definitely work locally Lightweavers should be able to casually destroy or subvert a lot of sensor system s(though they'd have to learn about them first, which seems like a substantial obstacle to overcome).

I also don't think that the Rosharans would naively assault the invaders more than once. One disastrous sortie and then we might see Radiants and Deepest Ones moving through the ground instead of the air. Like the soulcasting above, if something is really difficult and expensive to do while not being especially effective there is no reason that the Rosharans would continue doing it.

Edited December 1, 2025 by Returned

[TheFlatScadrian]

Hmm...

6 hours ago, Returned said:

Jasnah does it in Kharbranth and near the Perpendicularity outside of Thaylen City she does it with trivial ease. Everything else doesn't seem to be able to resist her in any meaningful way.

To be fair, I think that soul casting would be understood, or at least contextualized, pretty quickly with just simple observation. I could easily imagine a "shoot-on-sight" order for soulcasters, given their capabilities (And ignoring the Geneva Convention), and seeing a woman running around turning people into amethyst would be pretty clear cause, I would think. I certainly think the Rosharians could do some damage initially, but I don't think they could possibly last long-term.

7 hours ago, Returned said:

For what it's worth, we see an extremely inexperienced and low-Oathed Shallan transform an entire ship into water, which seems like a bad precedent for a carrier group.

Of course, to do that she had to play into its cognitive bead's sense of loyalty to the crew by presenting her casting of it as its "last service" to them, which wouldn't really apply in the same way to a completely functional, uncontested warship at full war prep (And, by cognitive soul, probably really doesn't like Rosharians). Plus she was touching that ship, really emotionally charged, and in shock, and wood is made partially of and grown with water; none of which would apply to a steel warship launching artillery from miles away. Soulcasting is rather poorly defined, but based on what I've seen, it's pretty difficult even for stuff you're directly holding, and the more you do it the faster you die. Shallan and Jasnah (And other Radiants) are rare, and can still be killed easily.

6 hours ago, Returned said:

Why would they need to do this? We see a few large things lashed in the books (I think a boulder is largest?) but I'm not sure what tactics you're imagining or how they compare. For trying to lash invaders' heavy equipment I'd worry far more about lashing specific pieces of things to cause them to break more of the machinery or tear themselves apart. Better still, mess with their abrasion so that they won't work properly or as expected, perhaps disastrously so.

That's a great point. But I think the same limited-upper-hand applies, because seeing a flying man touch a tank that has its turret suddenly fly off would be a pretty clear target for soldiers nearby. The U.S. Military has over 4,000 tanks, and that's not counting the tens of thousands of light and mechanized infantry vehicles (M2 Bradleys, Strykers, MRAPs, HEMTTs, even machine-gun mounted HMMWVs). A single man might get away with one or two before getting blasted sky-high. And broken parts can be repaired.

To be fair, all this gear would have to be transported in on carriers, LCMs, and ESB, or by air, but that's not to say an initial force couldn't clean out a lot of the resistance and then be supplied by further landings.

6 hours ago, Returned said:

Would the invading soldiers have cognitive representations? Would their equipment, coming from a place with no investiture component of matter, even have a representative bead in Shadesmar?

I actually don't know, but I do think that'd be fascinating. I'm still new to the deeper lore. Do we have any indication that the off-world Scadrians had cognitive representations? Or Wit/Hoid, and his flute? If they didn't that would cripple the most oft-discussed offense against a modern military.

6 hours ago, Returned said:

This changes everything, I think. Are we talking about a one-time transfer of soldiers and equipment to Roshar, and then the military is on its own with no (or very limited) resupply options? If so, how much is transferred before the conflict begins and how much can be delivered afterwards would radically change what the invaders can accomplish. Fuel and electricity might not be replaceable at all on Roshar, as well as high-tech items like missiles.

I know, my thoughts are a little all-over on this, but... uh... oh, I know.

It's U.S. controlled teleportation, but only to and from that one place in the ocean and nowhere else. They can send entire ships through, and airplanes that are in flight, and Rosharians can't use it or access it, or even know exactly where it is. I always just considered it as a "spawn point" or a "portal" because contextualizing it was not forefront (to my slight embarrassment), but that's the explanation that fits my mind's-eye best here (My bad on the confusion, y'all). 

~~~

I just want to discuss this one real quick, even though it's a bit of a side-tangent:

7 hours ago, Returned said:

Are we talking about a one-time transfer of soldiers and equipment to Roshar, and then the military is on its own with no (or very limited) resupply options?

A singular, one time transfer to, like, the Frostlands? That'd be slightly hilarious. The Rosharians would be completely overwhelmed if the entire U.S. military appeared and was prepared. As in, the entire thing? That's roughly 2.1 million soldiers; 10,000 jets; 350,000 infantry and cavalry vehicles; and over 3,000 howitzers. Plus, 400 ships (11 carriers, and assorted cruisers, corvettes, destroyers, and cargo ships). Aircraft carriers and submarines run without refueling on nuclear for a quarter of a century, so power is no issue, especially if you include the Janus deployable-reactor program. The only issue would be fuel, and that's assuming the entire U.S. military oil reserves aren't summoned too (SPR), and those can last for months, if not years. Food can be captured and grown. Besides, does that mean satellites too? Roshar would get annihilated. (Although it's not the way I've finally figured out it works, I just think that'd be hilarious.)