Nightblood not being a threat to Retribution

[Creation he/him]

In WaT, when Hoid gets vaporised, he says that the power of Retribution would see HIM as the only thing on Roshar that can harm him. However, if Taravangian saw Nightblood kill Rayse, wouldn't the power and Taravangian also see Nightblood as a threat?

[Returned he/him]

It's a tantalizing bit of reasoning to think over. If we want to take Hoid at his word, maybe it's Nightblood's relative lack of agency and control over himself? Like, Taravangian remembers using Nightblood on Rayse and resolves to never, ever be anywhere near Nightblood again, thereby controlling the risk, whereas Hoid can (and has, and probably still does) scheme against opponents?

[Creation he/him]

However, I believe Szeth could scheme, and also, Rayse, or Odium, didn't see Nightblood becuase he was in a vision, and Rayse didn't know Nightblood or Szeth was in Tukar. 

[Returned he/him]

*Shrug* If your position is that Odium can simply be ignorant of Nightblood when convenient for the plot (Rayse certainly knew that Nightblood existed, and knew that he was on Roshar, after Oathbringer), then that ignorance becomes a fair explanation in all cases, including this one. The ability to hatch a scheme at all isn't what I was referring to but rather that Hoid is one of the best and most capable schemers in the Cosmere over a period of millennia-- Szeth doesn't even come close to comparing.

After re-reading that section of the book, the definitive answer seems to be that the thing identifying Hoid as dangerous is the Odium Shard itself, not Taravangian, and the Odium Shard got through its experience with Nightblood just fine. Great, in fact, since Rayse wasn't a good fit for Odium any longer at that point while Taravangian was aligned very well with it. Here's the relevant section for anyone that doesn't have a copy of the book handy:

Quote

"Listen to me," Wit hissed. "In a frighteningly short amount of time, the power that Odium holds is going to identify me as the only thing on the planet that can harm him. The power bears a grudge, even though its vessel has changed. It's going to vaporize me." (WaT, p. 1302)

Hoid refers specifically to "the power that Odium holds", which is pretty unclear. Presumably Hoid is referring to the Shard, Odium, but that's not obvious-- he could also be referring to the being Odium, as Rayse styled himself and Hoid may have believed Taravangian would continue, but in that case he would definitely be referring to the Shard.

It's that "power that Odium holds" that will identify Hoid as the only thing that can harm "him" (not clear what the antecedent of the pronoun is here, but Taravangian makes the most sense to me). The "power that Odium holds" is also described as about to vaporize Hoid due to the fact that it "bears a grudge", which strongly suggests that Hoid is describing an emotional motivation and not a logical one. It's also telling that Hoid says "It's going to vaporize me" and not "he is going to vaporize me", implying that this is the power itself lashing out and not the vessel directing it to do so. The contrast between the power bearing a grudge and stating that the vessel had changed highlights that this is not Taravangian's idea.

So that's probably the answer, based on the text itself: the Shard doesn't care about Nightblood because Nightblood isn't in any way a threat to it, but it does care about Hoid (probably for reasons we haven't seen in any of the books yet, given their long and un-narrated history). How accurate the Shard's assessment is, I can't say.

Edited October 21, 2025 by Returned

[Creation he/him]

Ohhh, yeah, thanks, I understand now. 

[Treamayne]

13 hours ago, Creation said:

In WaT, when Hoid gets vaporised, he says that the power of Retribution would see HIM as the only thing on Roshar that can harm him. However, if Taravangian saw Nightblood kill Rayse, wouldn't the power and Taravangian also see Nightblood as a threat?

I think this question makes a false assumption. Let's look at the text - WaT Ch 146:

Spoiler

“Wha … what?” Sigzil asked. “Why are—”

“Listen to me,” Wit hissed. “In a frighteningly short amount of time, the power that Odium holds is going to identify me as the only thing on the planet that can harm him. The power bears a grudge, even though its vessel has changed. It’s going to vaporize me.”

Note - it says nothing about Taravangian. The Shard of Odium - separate from it's vessel - will identify the Dawnshard as the only thing left on the Planet to harm it.
That is true.
Nightblood may be able to kill a Vessel, but it cannot cause even moderate damage to a Shard, much less Splinter a Shard. Other Shards can (Cultivation has left), Dawnshards can (Wit has(d) one). Nightblood cannot. Sorry.

WoB:

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

Questioner

If it's possible for Nightblood to actually interact with a Shard, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shard would try to stay very far away from Nightblood. Nightblood could not plausibly destroy an entire Shard but the Vessel could be in danger.

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Quote

 

Ryan

Do we know why Nightblood didn't take up a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood didn't take up a Shard, Nightblood was not there... Oh, [they're] probably just asking why Nightblood did not absorb the entire Shard of Odium.

Nightblood cannot hold that much Investiture. At least not at that rate, right? Like, if you drop Nightblood without his sheath... I have to do it this way, because otherwise you drop him on the planet and he would absorb the entire planet, right. This is not a power I want Nightblood to have. I do not want Nightblood... Nightblood is a very dangerous tool without also being the death star.

I did not want... I actually was happy that I had the chance to put that scene in so I kind of put the kabosh on Nightblood being able to absorb the entire Investiture of an entire Shard. Not where I wanted... I didn't want that to be a promise people thought was coming. Now, he can absorb a lot and it's also rate of absorption is a pretty important deal.

...

People are gonna quote me on this in ten years and things like that and say "but, but, but". Just, you know, understand that there are specific ways that I'm trying to phrase some of these things.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

 

Hope that helps.

Edited October 21, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Ripheus23]

17 hours ago, Returned said:

"Listen to me," Wit hissed. "In a frighteningly short amount of time, the power that Odium holds is going to identify me as the only thing on the planet that can harm him. The power bears a grudge, even though its vessel has changed. It's going to vaporize me." (WaT, p. 1302)

The power, as an "it," is trying to protect the Vessel, as a "him." I mean, that's how I'm looking to read it. The power is "worried for" its Vessel.

So maybe the thing is that the power intentionally failed to protect Rayse from Nightblood, though it had the power to do otherwise, but it would protect Taravangian from Nightblood, so the threat is effectively neutralized in that direction?

OTOH, if Hoid can't directly harm someone, and his Dawnshard is the Exist one, and it's because of holding a Dawnshard that Hoid is relatively harmless (is it then also because it is specifically the Exist Dawnshard that he is limited???), it puzzles me to think that Hoid is not neutralized as a threat, here, too. Granted, I don't know why the Exist Dawnshard can damage a Shard in the first place, though (I'd usually think that it could be part of a weapon that could do so, like it could power such a destructive weapon, but by itself it wouldn't be enough).

Maybe it would be that, if Hoid fed Nightblood using the Dawnshard's power, say by Commanding Nightblood to "cause Odium to cease to exist" (to destroy the evil of Odium), that would be how Hoid could get around the Shard's protection of its Vessel. Maybe the Command to Exist can be Intended via a double-negation, "Cause the nonexistence of the nonexistence of something"??? And if the Shard of Odium could've been well-named as the Shard of the Void, and if a void is a domain of nonexistence...?

[Nitpicking]

It's the power that's worried. 

Nightblood can kill people and destroy objects.

Hoid holds the Dawnshard Exist, one of the weapons used to Shatter Adonalsium. Presumably, it could (perhaps with another Dawnshard or all of them) quite easily Splinter a Shard. And Hoid was part of the conspiracy to eliminate Adonalsium.

[Creation he/him]

At the end of WaT, though, I believe none of the Shards truly know Hoid has the Dawnshard Exist, and, Taravangium probably has a distinct memory of killing Rayse with Nightblood. 

[Nitpicking]

They certainly know he was part of the Shattering.

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

I agree with what most people have said, but it does raise an interesting question

What is Retribution's plan with Nightblood? Taravangian is in a unique position where he should fear the sword more than literally anybody else in the Cosmere. One of his first orders of business should, naturally, be to neutralize the threat

I think in the end, Retribution not doing anything regarding Nightblood just comes down to plot convenience, sadly

You COULD MAYBE say that the reforging of the Oathpact somehow hid Nightblood from Retribution's vision, I guess

[Nitpicking]

What makes you think Retribution won't do anything? WaT ends quite shortly after he attacks Hoid, right?

[Cosmer]

2 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

What makes you think Retribution won't do anything? WaT ends quite shortly after he attacks Hoid, right?

Yeah I would imagine Taravangian is quite keen to repeat the vessel-killing by Nightblood experience again (on someone else obviously). Quite a tool to have on your planet. No need to destroy it…I am sure he thinks he can control it here soon. 

[Hoid Slayer He/Him]

On 11/8/2025 at 6:49 PM, Nitpicking said:

What makes you think Retribution won't do anything? WaT ends quite shortly after he attacks Hoid, right?

The fact that Nightblood is clearly around for the good guys quite a bit after the end of the book. He is one of the two witnesses used for the in-world Knights of Wind and Truth, which was written by a clearly older Szeth’s wife (I forgot her name).

[Nitpicking]

15 hours ago, Hoid Slayer said:

The fact that Nightblood is clearly around for the good guys quite a bit after the end of the book. He is one of the two witnesses used for the in-world Knights of Wind and Truth, which was written by a clearly older Szeth’s wife (I forgot her name).

That shows that Retribution didn't succeed in destroying Nightblood, not that he didn't try.

[Returned he/him]

Taravangian is one of the smartest and most forward-thinking characters in the entire Cosmere, possibly ever. It's implausible that he has simply forgotten about Nightblood or that he has no plans (contingency or otherwise) which relate to him.

I'll challenge an assumption that's been made a few times in this thread: to a Shard, Nightblood is more useful than he is dangerous (even though he is very dangerous). That Nightblood is dangerous to Taravangian also means he is dangerous to everyone else, and not any more so against Odium than the others. Even less so, frankly, since the danger to a Vessel requires physically manifesting in the place where Nightblood is which is definitely avoidable.

Taravangian already has a history of using dangerous tools (Szeth, Odium, the Radiants, El) very effectively. Nightblood is much the same in that respect. Retribution is already locked in serious, perhaps mortal, struggle against pretty much everyone else both by temperament as well as by maneuver (the much over-credited Sunmaker's Gambit at the end of WaT). So he's already got everything dangerous to him in the Cosmere after him, is one more being (and one with little agency) really altering the calculus much?

Finally, even if you don't agree with any of that, trying to destroy Nightblood would also substantially increase the likelihood of Retribution having to interact with him, which increases the danger rather than decreasing it. And it's not like Nightblood has anything against Retribution or Taravangian, so he's not especially a target.

There is no pressing need for any Shard to destroy Nightblood (whether they would prefer to or not), and trying to do so would imperil them in ways they can easily avoid by tending to their actual business instead.

Edited November 11, 2025 by Returned