Why does everyone think that having killed Sadeas will destroy Adolin so much?

[Kyats Rani she/her]

I'm not even sure if that is correct, because Navani has two perks that Ialai does not; she is the widow of the previous king AND mother to the current king. Ialai is just the widow of a highlord. They might be of similar situation, but I doubt the Alethi elite would suffer her the way they do Navani.

True. But she has something that Navani has not - a very good network of spies and assasins. Even when losing all power personally, she can still use those to influence others - highprinces, common people etc. Besides, her husband has been murdered. The way I understand Alethi law (and I'm not saying it's very well - I barely understand the law in my own country ) in such situation she can demand justice or retribution. Or both. And she will. She will use everything she has to get her revenge. That's the kind of person she seems to me.

 

 

Especially considering it is shown that Lalai really does love Sadeus. True their love is more intellectual than physical/emotional, but there is a love of respect they hold for each other. They work well together and balance each other. Lalai is gonna gun for whoever did it with a passion and not stopped till the target of her ire is destroyed. 

I agree. She loves him and beside that she seems to be very supportive of his ploys and goals. And to me she seems the minds of their all operations - Sadeas decides what needs to be done, Ialai finds a way to do it. She's a very resourceful woman.

 

 

I'm not sure Ialai is going to bother dragging House Kholin through the mud of public opinion. They're actually in a reasonably strong position, given the Voidbringers have returned, the Everstorm has come, and they found Urithiru. It might not work. I think the easiest path for her is to just have Adolin assassinated.

That is actually a very good point. If she wants to have Adolin assasinated, I really hope that Kaladin will be back in Urithiru by then

 

The Kholins position is truly strong, but I think Ialai may try to uproot them anyway. I mean, she always seemed to me a vital part of her husband's ploys so she propably has her own purpose in them. Sadeas wanted to oppose Dalinar anyway, until the end (his end). Ialai may want the same. Besides, I also believe she will want revenge. And not only on Adolin - on their whole family.

 

On the other note - do we know if Sadeas had a son or other known heir? I'm aware no such person was mentioned in the books, but then again, neither was Relis (son of a highprince) until he became an active "player" (I can't think of a better word) in the series. Because if so, then Ialai will have even more reasons to go against the Kholins - the future of her son, who propably is similair kind of person and will make ruckus of the matter in his own right.

[Blaze1616 he/him]

I do not think that she would let that stop her for a second, especially considering her network, but that is an excellent point. 

 

 

True. But she has something that Navani has not - a very good network of spies and assasins. Even when losing all power personally, she can still use those to influence others - highprinces, common people etc. Besides, her husband has been murdered. The way I understand Alethi law (and I'm not saying it's very well - I barely understand the law in my own country ) in such situation she can demand justice or retribution. Or both. And she will. She will use everything she has to get her revenge. That's the kind of person she seems to me.

 

I totally agree. Ialai definitly has power, but I don't believe she'll be physically active in the politics like Navani is. Instead she'll be deaftly manipulating people using her spies.

[maxal she/her]

I actually have a different opinion on this... I'm very convinced that Ialai is not going to let the matter go too easily. She's going to use all of her spies to find out who killed her husband, so even if Adolin admits his crime to his father only, she will know. One way or another. Thus I believe Ialai will demand public trial or anyhow else she won't allow the Kholins to sort out the matter quietly. She will want everyone to know of Adolin's crime. She will try to use it against Dalinar and the others. She will strive to put as much shame on house Kholin as she can. Settling the score off-record won't give her this chance. And since the matter will be public, Elhokar will try to show himself as the true king - HE rules, not Dalinar.

 

I agree with the official and non-official punishment idea. That's more or less how I see this.

 

Yeah, I guess this is a possibility as well. I did think of it, but I keep wondering if the affair would really settles itself into a trial... Somehow, I am not convinced. I was more under the impression she would use her leverage to undermine house Kohlin, but without a trial. Let's not forget the judge would be a Kohlin and everyone knows Elhokar is Dalinar's puppet. She may not want this as she may feel Adolin would not get a sufficient punishment. I think it is more likely she will try to strike a deal, of the record.

 

 

We don't. At least it wasn't officially stated. But many (me included) tend to see this as obvious - sooner or later the truth will come out. By now nobody knows yet, but as for the end of WoR nobody propably knows yet that Sadeas is dead in the first place Personally, I think that even if Adolin's clue hiding skills will somehow be enough, he will be eaten up by guilt, so his behaviour will propably reveal him as a potential culprit. For me, the question isn't whether or not Adolin will be found out. It's whether he will break and admit to Dalinar what he has done or somebody discovers the truth (Renarin, Ialai's spies, Nalan, anyone).

 

I am quite keen on the "Adolin breaking down" theory, so I'd say he'll break and tell someone. I can see him crumbling apart and apologizing to Dalinar for not being the son he deserved or the son he wanted him to be.

 

 

Especially considering it is shown that Lalai really does love Sadeus. True their love is more intellectual than physical/emotional, but there is a love of respect they hold for each other. They work well together and balance each other. Lalai is gonna gun for whoever did it with a passion and not stopped till the target of her ire is destroyed. 

 

That is the one redeeming quality I have find in Sadeas: he loves her wife for who she is as opposed to how she looks. I kinda like them as a couple: they seemed much more functional then many other couples we have met.

 

 

I'm not sure Ialai is going to bother dragging House Kholin through the mud of public opinion. They're actually in a reasonably strong position, given the Voidbringers have returned, the Everstorm has come, and they found Urithiru. It might not work. I think the easiest path for her is to just have Adolin assassinated.

 

Yeah, I have thought of that one too.... The Sadeas were gunning for Adolin right before Toroll bite the dust. Sadeas decided early on in WoR to take down the son instead of the father. I doubt Ialai will stop now, so assassination attempt is highly likely. There is also the matter of this letter Ialai received while they are both watching Dalinar and co leaving for the Plateau fight. She claimed Sadeas would enjoy its content. I have been wondering what it was ever since....

 

 

The Kholins position is truly strong, but I think Ialai may try to uproot them anyway. I mean, she always seemed to me a vital part of her husband's ploys so she propably has her own purpose in them. Sadeas wanted to oppose Dalinar anyway, until the end (his end). Ialai may want the same. Besides, I also believe she will want revenge. And not only on Adolin - on their whole family.

 

On the other note - do we know if Sadeas had a son or other known heir? I'm aware no such person was mentioned in the books, but then again, neither was Relis (son of a highprince) until he became an active "player" (I can't think of a better word) in the series. Because if so, then Ialai will have even more reasons to go against the Kholins - the future of her son, who propably is similair kind of person and will make ruckus of the matter in his own right.

 

The Sadeas have identify Adolin as a threat a while ago. They wanted to get rid of him, so I doubt Ialai will stop now.

 

We don't know about a potential son. It seems strange he never had any children...

[Quazar87]

Man, there are a lot of lunatics on this board. Obviously Adolin did the right thing. Sadeas was an enemy who foolishly put himself in a vulnerable position, so Adolin capitalized. Good show. He even had the presence of mind to minimize the evidence.

Compare this to Sadeas' betrayal. He pretended to friendship and loyalty to his old ally, only to stab him in the back. He got thousands of men killed and still managed to fail to finish Dalinar.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Man, there are a lot of lunatics on this board. Obviously Adolin did the right thing. Sadeas was an enemy who foolishly put himself in a vulnerable position, so Adolin capitalized. Good show. He even had the presence of mind to minimize the evidence.

Compare this to Sadeas' betrayal. He pretended to friendship and loyalty to his old ally, only to stab him in the back. He got thousands of men killed and still managed to fail to finish Dalinar.

 

I wouldn't call us lunatics. Yes, Adolin did the right thing. Sadeas needed to be killed. I don't think anyone here questions that. What we wonder about is how it will affect Adolin personally. He's not the kind of person to go around stabbing people. He's the kind to kill them in an official duel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas in rage. He will feel guilty for the way he did it not for the fact he did it. He will feel guilty for not being the man his father wanted him to be not for Sadeas' death. It was already explained a few times before in this thread...

 

 

Yeah, I guess this is a possibility as well. I did think of it, but I keep wondering if the affair would really settles itself into a trial... Somehow, I am not convinced. I was more under the impression she would use her leverage to undermine house Kohlin, but without a trial. Let's not forget the judge would be a Kohlin and everyone knows Elhokar is Dalinar's puppet. She may not want this as she may feel Adolin would not get a sufficient punishment. I think it is more likely she will try to strike a deal, of the record.

 

That's true. The trial may not be a good idea. What I meant was more that Ialai won't let the whole matter be done with quietly, she will use it against the Kholin family. She may strike a deal at the same time discreetly convincing people that the Kholins tried to sweep the matter of Torol's murder under the carpet to hide their shame. No matter the punishment issued on Adolin (unless it's death sentence, which I doubt) she would still feel it's not sufficient and try to punish (kill) him anyway, regardless of any deals, official repercussions or retributions (probably in the form of Adolin's Shards...). She has just the right resources to do it.

 

The Sadeas have identify Adolin as a threat a while ago. They wanted to get rid of him, so I doubt Ialai will stop now.

 

We don't know about a potential son. It seems strange he never had any children...

 

Before, that was political. Adolin was a threat, so they needed to get rid of him. Now, it's personal. Ialai will want revenge. Bloody revenge if possible. She will not stop. She will go for it with more determination. Kaladin, better hurry up, somebody must save Adolin's backside from all of those assasins...

 

In a world where sons inherit their fathers' lands/offices/titles it would be very strange for Sadeas to have no son. Maybe he just wasn't improtant enough for the plot by now so he wasn't mentioned? Maybe he didn't come to the Plains, instead staying in his father's princedom? I have no idea how to explain this, really (at least no plausible one). But Sadeas must have an heir. If not a son then maybe a cousin/nephew/anyone... Otherwise it makes no sense to me.

[Arondell]

In a world where sons inherit their fathers' lands/offices/titles it would be very strange for Sadeas to have no son. Maybe he just wasn't improtant enough for the plot by now so he wasn't mentioned? Maybe he didn't come to the Plains, instead staying in his father's princedom? I have no idea how to explain this, really (at least no plausible one). But Sadeas must have an heir. If not a son then maybe a cousin/nephew/anyone... Otherwise it makes no sense to me.

 

As I recall Aladar's predecessor, Yenev, didn't have sons or if he did they for some reason didn't automatically inherit.  Gavilar conspired with Sadeas to kill him in a duel so that Gavilar could place Aladar in the position.

[Khyrindor he/him]

Whoever is handing out downvotes in this thread, please stop. Unless someone has personally offended you, this is all opinion, so there is no need for downvotes. Thank you.

[RawToast225 he/him]

Back to the topic, the King can hand out princedoms on a whim. He is the final authority in that regard. Not that it means much when we are talking about Elhokar, but that's how they set Aladar in as Highprince. 

[Kyats Rani she/her]

As I recall Aladar's predecessor, Yenev, didn't have sons or if he did they for some reason didn't automatically inherit.  Gavilar conspired with Sadeas to kill him in a duel so that Gavilar could place Aladar in the position.

 

Back to the topic, the King can hand out princedoms on a whim. He is the final authority in that regard. Not that it means much when we are talking about Elhokar, but that's how they set Aladar in as Highprince. 

 

You are both right. And it can happen in Sadeas' case. It would just make sense to me if a highprince had an heir he had choosen (not necessarily a son). Of course, king may place his ally in the position instead, but that's another matter. What I'm trying to say is just that in natural course of action it's simply logical for somebody like a highprince to make sure he has somebody to inherit after him. But then again, we know nothing about Sadeas in this regard. And a wise king would appoint his ally in his place anyway (like they did to Yenev), but it's Elhokar, he can't do wise to save his life unless Dalinar forces him to And appointing someone else than Sadeas' choosen heir (if such person exists...) would in this situation only serve to help Ialai undermine the Kholins ("see? they planned it to their advantage! they didn't even have enough honour to kill him in an official duel, stabbing him in the back instead") in the eyes of others.

[Pathfinder]

Man, there are a lot of lunatics on this board. Obviously Adolin did the right thing. Sadeas was an enemy who foolishly put himself in a vulnerable position, so Adolin capitalized. Good show. He even had the presence of mind to minimize the evidence.

Compare this to Sadeas' betrayal. He pretended to friendship and loyalty to his old ally, only to stab him in the back. He got thousands of men killed and still managed to fail to finish Dalinar.

I will say this much, are you sure YOU aren't a highprince yourself? From what your wrote it sounds like your saying what Adolin did was right simply because he was SUCCESSFUL at it, while Sadeus did not accomplish his ultimate goal lol

[Knotai]

Remember:

Brandon has not confirmed that Sadeas is dead.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Remember:

Brandon has not confirmed that Sadeas is dead.

Sadeas is definitely dead. His blade reappeared at the end, remember. What remains to be seen is that if he stays dead. Something tells me there will be no resurrection for him. Welcome to the forums!

[maxal she/her]

I wouldn't call us lunatics. Yes, Adolin did the right thing. Sadeas needed to be killed. I don't think anyone here questions that. What we wonder about is how it will affect Adolin personally. He's not the kind of person to go around stabbing people. He's the kind to kill them in an official duel. He snapped and murdered Sadeas in rage. He will feel guilty for the way he did it not for the fact he did it. He will feel guilty for not being the man his father wanted him to be not for Sadeas' death. It was already explained a few times before in this thread... .

 

Adolin is very influenced by Dalinar. His sole purpose in life appears to stand besides his father. He claims, in WoK, he asked to join the war on the Shattered Plains, not to avenge the king, his uncle, but to make his father feel better. He naively though that if they get sufficient retribution against the Parshendi, then his father would go back to be the man he was before the assassination. Each time we see him act through his POV, we have him thinking of his father. He duels for shards, does he think about the glory, about his dream to be made champion? No. He thinks about Dalinar asking him to win shards. He is about to be killed by Szeth and what are his last thoughts? Father, I am sorry.

 

It is impossible he will not feel any guilt towards failing Dalinar. Killing Sadeas? I agree the act of killing Sadeas won't bother him so much as the circumstances. He lost control of himself. We have seen him struggle through both book to keep his temper under control. He is emotional, Sadeas says he has the Passions, like Dalinar once had, but he has yet to figure out how to channel this energy in a positive way. He'll be ashamed he lost it.

 

Now, he is not the kind of person to depress endlessly, but he does strike me as the kind of person who'd self-depreciate himself. However, he is not the kind to curl up in a ball and whine over it. No. He'll take his failure, he'll swallow it and put in his mind to work harder from now on to prove himself worthy. He'll keep on taking more responsibilities and he'll pull on long hours to go through them. Eventually, the load will become too much: work load, emotional load, physical load. Bottom line is I think he'll run himself to the ground up to a point he won't think clearly. That's when he'll get reckless, hotheaded and foolish by jeopardizing his life over some gamble while feeling abandoned in the middle of his former loved ones. This is how I see him breaking.

 

 

As I recall Aladar's predecessor, Yenev, didn't have sons or if he did they for some reason didn't automatically inherit.  Gavilar conspired with Sadeas to kill him in a duel so that Gavilar could place Aladar in the position.

 

 

 

You are both right. And it can happen in Sadeas' case. It would just make sense to me if a highprince had an heir he had choosen (not necessarily a son). Of course, king may place his ally in the position instead, but that's another matter. What I'm trying to say is just that in natural course of action it's simply logical for somebody like a highprince to make sure he has somebody to inherit after him. But then again, we know nothing about Sadeas in this regard. And a wise king would appoint his ally in his place anyway (like they did to Yenev), but it's Elhokar, he can't do wise to save his life unless Dalinar forces him to And appointing someone else than Sadeas' choosen heir (if such person exists...) would in this situation only serve to help Ialai undermine the Kholins ("see? they planned it to their advantage! they didn't even have enough honour to kill him in an official duel, stabbing him in the back instead") in the eyes of others.

 

I keep thinking Ialai and her allies will push for Amaram to become the next Highprince. Dalinar will be forced into a moral dilemma: up-hold his promise to Kaladin to fairly trial Amaram or drop it to strike a deal with the enemy in order to protect Adolin.

 

Whereas it is true forcing Adolin to go through a public trial would impede Dalinar's credibility, but not so much as harboring a murderer within his house. They way I see it, the best retribution Ialai could hope for would be an off the record arrangement with Dalinar in which House Kohlin forfeits all of their shards to House Sadeas, offer their full support to Amaram upcoming nomination as the next Highprince and thus drop the chargers against him. In exchange, Ialai promises not to make official accusations and to let the matter rest.

 

It would become common knowledge Adolin murdered Sadeas. Everyone would know him as such, but moreover, they would know Dalinar made a deal to protect him. Dalinar would look weak for refusing to press charges against his son, not to mention it goes directly against everything he has been trying to ingrain into the other Highprinces. He would thus become the man that wants people to do as he says and not as he does. Such as situation may also discredit Dalinar's reputation as a pious man as it would become clear his son now acts as his executioner. It may propel the other Highprinces to ally themselves against him as they would fear his position is becoming too dangerous. Nobody wants to leave a man in charge would does not refrain himself from sending his son to murder opponents. Most people would probably believe Dalinar was against Adolin's actions. However, without their shards, House Kohlin would lose most of their striking force, making them vulnerable to such attack. Other houses may want to capitalize on this. Quite a bad position.

 

Adolin, on his side, would be forced to live with the constant mockery and disapproval from his peers not to mention the lost of his father's trust. People would lose confidence in him and at the same time, they would grow fearful of him. He's won countless of battle, he's won countless of shards in a world were such thing is considered extremely hard. He is a threat and now he is on the lose. Who is he going to kill next? People, other then Ialai, may round up to try to get rid of him. Too dangerous, even without shards.

 

And all Ialai has to do next is sit back and enjoy watching the chaos spread around her. Her house is now back to be powerful: owning several shards. She does not even have to send her assassins against Adolin, she can just watch the boy sink from afar and dig his own grave.

 

Public trial would not serve the same purpose. Adolin would most likely be condemn to exile. With him gone, House Kohlin is weaker as he was their future and Dalinar's right hand man, but it still stands strong. It still has its shards and its public image is more or less intact. By accepting to have his son trialed, Dalinar disengage himself from his deed. His honor would be mostly safe and his morality would pass easier if people see him willing to sacrifice his heir for it.

 

Which path is Ialai going to chose? I'd wager the first one as it would cause the most destruction to House Kohlin.

 

 

Before, that was political. Adolin was a threat, so they needed to get rid of him. Now, it's personal. Ialai will want revenge. Bloody revenge if possible. She will not stop. She will go for it with more determination. Kaladin, better hurry up, somebody must save Adolin's backside from all of those assasins...

 

If she is as smart as I think she is, she won't need to dip her toe by sending her assassins. Others will take care of Adolin for her. Wasn't it Sadeas's idea anyway? Goat the boy to do something incredibility brash, watch walk on the edge of the cliff and when no one is looking, shove him down. That is exactly what I think she'll do.

[ChocolateRob he/him]

I've not paid too much attention to Ialai but she strikes me as a pragmatist and the smarter of the pair, when they learn that Aladar has joined with Dalinar Ialai seems more contemplative than Sadeas. I was under the impression that she was worried that Sadeas' bulling boorishly ahead was going to be a problem, she is seeing the writing on the wall a lot more clearly than her husband and is realising that opposing Dalinar from now on will be 1) a lot harder and 2) a mistake anyway.

 

That was my reaction to that small section. It may be sweet that Sadeas loves/admires his wife for her brains and skills but that does not mean she feels the same way. 1) I could be entirely wrong. 2)She may be using Sadeas mostly for political power or 3) She does love him but still be frustrated by his bull-headedness in the face of a changing situation.

 

I don't see Count of Monte Cristo style revenge in her future when it could backfire on her quite badly.

Edited November 14, 2014 by ChocolateRob

[Kyats Rani she/her]

Adolin is very influenced by Dalinar. His sole purpose in life appears to stand besides his father. He claims, in WoK, he asked to join the war on the Shattered Plains, not to avenge the king, his uncle, but to make his father feel better. He naively though that if they get sufficient retribution against the Parshendi, then his father would go back to be the man he was before the assassination. Each time we see him act through his POV, we have him thinking of his father. He duels for shards, does he think about the glory, about his dream to be made champion? No. He thinks about Dalinar asking him to win shards. He is about to be killed by Szeth and what are his last thoughts? Father, I am sorry.

 

It is impossible he will not feel any guilt towards failing Dalinar. Killing Sadeas? I agree the act of killing Sadeas won't bother him so much as the circumstances. He lost control of himself. We have seen him struggle through both book to keep his temper under control. He is emotional, Sadeas says he has the Passions, like Dalinar once had, but he has yet to figure out how to channel this energy in a positive way. He'll be ashamed he lost it.

 

Now, he is not the kind of person to depress endlessly, but he does strike me as the kind of person who'd self-depreciate himself. However, he is not the kind to curl up in a ball and whine over it. No. He'll take his failure, he'll swallow it and put in his mind to work harder from now on to prove himself worthy. He'll keep on taking more responsibilities and he'll pull on long hours to go through them. Eventually, the load will become too much: work load, emotional load, physical load. Bottom line is I think he'll run himself to the ground up to a point he won't think clearly. That's when he'll get reckless, hotheaded and foolish by jeopardizing his life over some gamble while feeling abandoned in the middle of his former loved ones. This is how I see him breaking.

 

And that's mostly what I said but explained in a more detailed way

 

 

...

 

That's pretty much what I see happening. As if we didn't have enough problems with Amaram yet    If that happens, I see Kal arguing with Dalinar rather harshly. He will agree that it was a good decision to protect Adolin, but he won't agree with letting Amaram not only stay free but also earn such a high position. Hopefully he's smarter now and won't try anything stupid himself

 

I can even imagine Ialai demanding every single Shard in possesion of the Kholins and their immediate allies - therefore also Kaladin's Shardblade (Syl). And he won't agree to this. Dalinar will support him - spren are different than regular Blades. Then Ialai will use this as another argument against Kholins - they promised all Shards and yet they kept one!

 

And in the light of the last paragraph of your post - it looks like Sadeas asked to be killed by Adolin Goat the boy to do something brash and watch him fall because of this. That's exactly what happened. Too bad old Torol won't be able to watch

 

 

I've not paid too much attention to Ialai but she strikes me as a pragmatist and the smarter of the pair, when they learn that Aladar has joined with Dalinar Ialai seems more contemplative than Sadeas. I was under the impression that she was worried that Sadeas' bulling boorishly ahead was going to be a problem, she is seeing the writing on the wall a lot more clearly than her husband and is realising that opposing Dalinar from now on will be a) a lot harder and a mistake anyway.

 

That was my reaction to that small section. It may be sweet that Sadeas loves/admires his wife for her brains and skills but that does not mean she feels the same way. A) I could be entirely wrong. She may be using Sadeas mostly for political power or C) She does love him but still be frustrated by his bull-headedness in the face of a changing situation.

 

I don't see Count of Monte Cristo style revenge in her future when it could backfire on her quite badly.

 

You make a valid point. It is very possible that you are right, I admit. But I just see it in a different way   She may be frustrated by the way Sadeas took to achieve his goal, but I'm sure she has the same goal in mind - she will just be smarter about it. Regardless of her personal feelings toward Torol (though I do believe she cared for him) she will use his death as a weapon against Kholins.

[FeatherWriter she/her]

Sorry, this will probably be a long reply since I'm coming into this convo so late. I've got some thoughts on murder and Knight Radiant oaths (and especially about Jasnah, gotta defend my girl Jasnah). Going back to the original topic however: Why do people think that killing Sadeas will destroy Adolin?

 

Simple. Because that's what the text wants you to think.

 

Sometimes I think in these discussions, we tend to evaluate the characters as though they were real people, as though their actions stood outside the context of a fictional narrative. In a lot of cases, this is a good thing, but in a situation like this, I think it's important to remember that Adolin is a character within a story, and there are things outside of the canon facts of the text that can clue us in to the way we're supposed to be reading a scene.

 

Think of something like a TV show or a movie. Maybe you have a female character coming home after a long day of work and relaxing. But, if this is in a horror story, you're probably feeling nervous and anxious as things get tense. This scene might be 'relaxing' but to the audience, it's really nervewracking. If this is an action movie, there's probably a relaxing lull in the action, but we're ready and waiting for the next plot twist to happen, maybe an attack by the enemy just when she thinks she's safe. If this is a romcom, it's probably a happy scene and we're probably waiting for something funny or cute to happen. 

 

Movies and TV shows clue us in to the way we're supposed to be feeling about the scene through things like camera angles, lighting, color tones, and especially soundtrack. Even before the revealing plot point shows up, even if you didn't actually know the genre of the movie/show going in, you could probably figure out what's supposed to happen. 

 

A really good writer can do the same thing with a book. And Brandon's one of the best right? Choosing to add some details over others, choosing certain words, emphasizing parts of the story over others, these can all influence the way a reader perceives a situation. This scene, the way that it's presented, is not meant to make you think that Adolin has done the right thing here. Yes, you can certainly justify killing Sadeas because Sadeas is a horrible person who did terrible things to Adolin and his family, but the way this scene reads is that Adolin has just made a huge mistake. 

 

The descriptions of the act are brutal, and the way that Adolin snaps and loses control gives us the sense that this is a mistake borne of a moment of weakness. We get the idea that if Adolin had been thinking clearly, if he hadn't let his emotions get the better of him, he wouldn't have done this. That loss of control is presented negatively, and we understand that what Adolin is doing is bad for him, even if we don't think that the act of killing Sadeas was wrong. This is a lapse of judgment, a weak point for him, and it's presented as such. We get a sense like that, which clues the reader in that this was a mistake, and it's going to have consequences. 

 

Beyond that, Adolin's own reactions to what he's done give us the sense that this was a bad thing that just happened. People made the argument that Sadeas has probably killed more people with his betrayal maneuver than Szeth ever killed. Yet, when Kaladin kills Szeth, it's a heroic scene. Kaladin is presented at his strongest, at the culmiation of another large step in his character growth. Killing Szeth (even if he didn't stay dead) was unequivocably the right thing to do and there is a sense of satisfaction, both for Kaladin and for the reader, when it is accomplished.

 

There is no such satisfaction with Adolin. HIs immediate reactions are panic and guilt. No matter how justified the killing might have been, Adolin believes that he's just done something very wrong and he needs to hide the evidence, deny all connections with it, and make sure that no one finds out what happened. That kind of guilt in and of itself tends to be a debilitating factor in a character's life, even if we didn't have the greater narrative warning us that consequences and bad things are imminent because of this action. The sense at the end of the scene is apprehension and worry, not triumph and victory. 

 

I remember, personally, feeling somewhat robbed in reading that scene. I was wanting Sadeas' death to be this great moment of success and for it to be satisfying to see justice done. Brandon took that away from us, intentionally, making sure that we knew this wasn't a good thing. We get this ominous sense of foreboding and rather than feeling satisfied that this evil man has been destroyed, we feel worried and anxious for the character who did it.

 

TL;DR : The scene in which Adolin kills Sadeas is narratively structured to cause apprehension on the part of the readers for Adolin, his character in general, and his ultimate fate. Brandon uses structural details and scene framing to get the point across that, even entirely apart from the possibly justifications of the killing, the action was a dangerous mistake on Adolin's part due to a lapse in judgment, and that consequences are sure to follow.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

The comparison of Kaladin killing Szeth versus Adolin killing Sadeas is interesting. I think the crucial difference between the two scenes is the absence of witnesses in the Adolin's case. If Adolin and Sadeas had the same interaction in presence of witnesses Adolin would have come out a hero for defending his father's Honor from Sadeas' insinuations. Conversely, if Kaladin and Szeth had fought away from the armies then Kaladin's victory wouldn't have appeared so sweet.

Killing someone in a lonely corridor, even when that someone has gravely provoked you seems just wrong. We readers are a sort of witness to Adolin's actions and like any other in-scene witness would, we naturally think him right to have done so while lack of in-scene witness tells us that Adolin's action will not be justified in the story.

Hopefully I made some sense.

[Pathfinder]

The comparison of Kaladin killing Szeth versus Adolin killing Sadeas is interesting. I think the crucial difference between the two scenes is the absence of witnesses in the Adolin's case. If Adolin and Sadeas had the same interaction in presence of witnesses Adolin would have come out a hero for defending his father's Honor from Sadeas' insinuations. Conversely, if Kaladin and Szeth had fought away from the armies then Kaladin's victory wouldn't have appeared so sweet.

Killing someone in a lonely corridor, even when that someone has gravely provoked you seems just wrong. We readers are a sort of witness to Adolin's actions and like any other in-scene witness would, we naturally think him right to have done so while lack of in-scene witness tells us that Adolin's action will not be justified in the story.

Hopefully I made some sense.

Actually neither had witnesses. At the final clash that resulted in Szeth's demise, Kal and Szeth had been blazing across the sky for miles. So ultimately when Kal slayed Szeth, there were no witnesses nor anyone around. Though I will say if things were converse, and Adolin had been surrounded by witnesses, it would have played out like all the other times. Dalinar, Renarian, Shallan, Kal, Navani, or anyone else would at least attempt to hold Adolin back. I find this interesting, because without someone to hold him back, to remind him of the right thing to do, ultimately Adolin took Sadeus's life. On one hand true he was exausted, and upset and etc, but this is not the first time this situation came up. Just every other time there were people around to stop him, and he wanted to challenge Sadeus to a duel rather than just attack/kill him. 

[FeatherWriter she/her]

I would say that Kaladin was alone (aside from Syl) when he killed Szeth, as they were way up in the sky in the midst of the storm when it happened. However, you're right in that the army members were aware that Kaladin was fighting Szeth, even if they weren't actually there when it happened.

 

I still say that even if there had been witnesses around for Adolin and Sadeas' fight it would have still been wrong and bad. There's some foreshadowing of this when Sadeas and Adolin are in the same storm shelter. Again, Sadeas seems to goad Adolin, trying to push him to attack. Amaram is the one who stops Adolin in this case, but Sadeas wanted to be attacked, because he knew that it would have major consequences for Adolin. He made a mistake in goading Adolin when they were alone and underestimating how quickly Adolin would snap, but the fact remains that Sadeas new that this would be a bad thing for Adolin and for that reason, wanted it to happen.

 

 

“Young Adolin,” Sadeas said. “What do you think of my coat?”

 

Adolin took a gulp of wine, not trusting himself to reply. I should just get up and walk away. But he didn’t. A small part of him wished for Sadeas to provoke him, push away his inhibitions, drive him to do something stupid. Killing the man right here, right now, would likely earn Adolin an execution— or at least an exile. It might be worth either punishment.

(....)

He gritted his teeth, and found himself reaching his hand to the side to summon his Blade. No. He pulled the hand back. He’d find a way to force this man into the dueling ring. Killing Sadeas now— no matter how much he deserved it— would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold.

 

But storms . . . Adolin was tempted.

--- WoR, Ch. 50 Uncut Gems

 

We see this very clear foreshadowing that Adolin killing Sadeas outside of a duel is wrong and goes against everything he and his father are standing for. Therefore, when it actually happens, we know that Adolin has just majorly messed up.

[Twenty@20 he/him]

Ya when I talked about Kaladin having witnesses for Szeth's fight, I meant that the fight started among witnesses and with the intention that only one of them was going to survive it.

I still say that even if there had been witnesses around for Adolin and Sadeas' fight it would have still been wrong and bad. There's some foreshadowing of this when Sadeas and Adolin are in the same storm shelter. Again, Sadeas seems to goad Adolin, trying to push him to attack. Amaram is the one who stops Adolin in this case, but Sadeas wanted to be attacked, because he knew that it would have major consequences for Adolin. He made a mistake in goading Adolin when they were alone and underestimating how quickly Adolin would snap, but the fact remains that Sadeas new that this would be a bad thing for Adolin and for that reason, wanted it to happen.

We see this very clear foreshadowing that Adolin killing Sadeas outside of a duel is wrong and goes against everything he and his father are standing for. Therefore, when it actually happens, we know that Adolin has just majorly messed up.

Ya, you are perhaps right. Under no circumstances, Adolin killing Sadeas outside of a duel would have been justified. But Feather, doesn't it messes up your earlier point that the particular way the scene was written - deserted corridors, Adolin's loss of control, gory description of the death and Adolin destroying evidence - gave the readers the foreboding that Adolin is in trouble? Because rather than the setting of the scene, it was Adolin's departure from Dalinar's ideals (which meant killing Sadeas only in a official duel was justified) that hinted at future troubles for him. I mean there was no way to write the scene and put markers to tell readers that what Adolin's doing is right and honourable.

PS. There is a good chance I misunderstood your initial post. So feel free to correct me.

[maxal she/her]

About characters, writing and perception... Didn't mean it to be long, but I kept adding sentences and sentences and sentences.... I dunno if half of it makes sense Slightly off-topic.

 

Kaladin tends to be described as honor's champion and a true hero. Even when he reaches his lowest low, he still is a hero. The story is written in a way to make us think Kaladin can do no wrong. His inner turmoil as to kill or not to kill Elhokar may have been an attempt to make him appear flawed, but he still does not come out this way. Kaladin always has seem to have a good reason to act the way he does even when he is at fault.

 

Let's take the Kaladin/Adolin bickering for example. To most readers, the faltive is Adolin: he is not being nice to Kaladin, he is being dismissive by calling him bridgeboy... which is in part true, but many readers tend to overlook the fact Adolin has every reasons to distrust Kaladin. He may have saved his life, he knows next to nothing about the man, he has been branded as a dangerous slave and he performed acts of bravery for a dubious origin. There is also the fact Kaladin is the one to launch the hostilities by being outright rude with Adolin, refusing to use his title and claiming high and strong to whoever may hear he would not obey to any orders from him, unless he decides to.

 

Kaladin has little reasons, apart from jealousy, to distrust Adolin as the man has never done anything reprehensible. He even saved a prostitute, a fact, Kaladin has a very hard time giving any credit to Adolin for. However us, as readers, are tending to see Kaladin as the right full one and Adolin as the faltive one.

 

That being said, when Kaladin takes on Szeth: he cannot be anything else then a hero. There is absolutely no questions ask as to his motivation. We could argue that once the entire army was safely moved to Urithiru, there were no further need to slay Szeth as he was not a thread anymore, but Kaladin killing Szeth is shown as the summon of the entire fighting sequence on the Plateau. Every other act of heroism shown in this battle tend to lose their shine in retrospect of Kaladin big victory. It has been foreshadowed since early on that Kaladin would be the one to kill Szeth and now we were being shown the conclusion of this story.

 

Witness or no witness, Kaladin is everyone's hero.

 

Adolin is another matter... He is first presented to us as a superficial boy known for his endless streak of failed relationships, arguably due to his bad behavior in the matter. He dares not to trust Dalinar's visions, at first and to most readers, it made him appear petulant. People easily tend to dismiss the fact he had every reason to believe the visions to be a fabrication of the mind, but the fact he voices his opposition this strongly marks him as arrogant. He chose dueling as a calling, a vain sport, which re-emphasis his superficiality. In fact, we are so convince Adolin is nothing more then an empty shell we are clearly surprised to see his save this prostitute as it appears as out-of-character.

 

Even early on in WoK, most readers expect Adolin to either go bad or dead. Each time he does something amazing, readers are set to think it is the glitch, the abnormality. Adolin cannot be the hero, he is too rich, too spoiled, too superficial to even think of acting for someone else then himself, even though he has never been seen doing anything else then that. However, as WoR goes along, we are forced to see another Adolin: the kind one, the caring one, the vulnerable one even and more importantly, the driven one, but we are also seeing the emotional one, the temperamental one and the angry one. By the end of WoR, just as we are getting content in seeing him as a generally good person with some endearing qualities (greatly helped by his standing by Kaladin the hero's side), he goes out and does something highly reprehensible: he kills Sadeas.

 

I do not know what Brandon was trying to achieve with this scene, but the way I see it, there are two general reactions to it. I believe most readers (not 17th sharders, but your average reader) would tend to think Adolin has gone bad. It has been foreshadowed, he has temper issues and he is not the hero: he thus have to become the villain. Had Kaladin done the deed, the reaction would have been different as Kaladin is the hero. Other readers, mostly those who love Adolin for the unexpected likable character with a hidden depth that he is, tend to see it as something bad, for him. I for one think he has just entered a roller coaster of emotions and being Adolin, it will burst all over the place and my favorite hobby is finding out how many loops the ride will do.

 

I think Brandon wrote Adolin is a very very clever way... There are two Adolins. The first Adolin is the outgoing, the extravert, the outspoken, the one that thrives through any social gathering easily moving along from one group to another, a master at small talk that talks of everything and nothing, but never of what matters to him. The second Adolin is the one we have rarely seen him open up to anyone about his inner thoughts, his deepest feelings, his insecurities, his fears. All of that, he keeps on this inside while pushing forward his over-confident arrogant persona. Brandon writes Adolin just this way. He pushes forward the exterior, but rarely goes into the inside or he just brushes it ever so slightly.

 

In fact, we are meeting Adolin through the book the same way we would be meeting such a person, in real life. We are thus being led to believe Adolin is nothing more then he seems, even after all he did as extraverts tend to be likable to themselves only and annoying to everyone else.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

...

 

I see your point. But if you didn't mention "average reader not 17th sharder" I would propably argue with you Most people read the book, come to the conclusions basing only on what is most obvious in the text or even opinions of other in-book characters. But some think more of it and come to different conclusions. Take my parents for example - all 3 of us read WoK (only I read WoR by now...). I had my views on the characters, some of them changed after reading WoR or discussing on this forum, but generally I still stick to my personal opinions. My dad read the book only for pleasure and as soon as he finished he went to read other books. He doesn't think about it at all. No interesting discussions with him. My mom was a bit more aware reader but whenever I try to talk to her, she doesn't try to look deeper at the characters motivations and personalities. We may discuss events but not characters. And she even chastises me for overthinking a book instead on focusing on real life - that's the reason I joined 17th Shard, here I can discuss whatever I want and nobody minds that Anyway, basing on my talk with my mom I can say that  maxal is completely right. My mom sees Kaladin as a main character and a hero, no matter what. Kaladin is my favourite character, but I see his flaws and mistakes. She doesn't, unless it was pointed out in the text. She sees Adolin as a spoiled, rich kid. I see that he is a spoiled, rich kid, but a very nice and caring one. I see that he acts like he does because that's how he was raised, not because he thinks himself better due to haughtiness. My mom says that Adolin was stupid to argue with Kaladin at the Tower - he was trying to save him, after all. But she doesn't look at this from Adolin's perspective - he wanted to save his father, no matter what, the fact that a darkeye tried to order him around was actually secondary. It's sad, but that's how most people reads the books. Only the ones willing to ponder and think more about it all see the truth - the characters are not exactly what they seems. For most Adolin is just a spoiled prince, not very bright and easy to manipulate (*cough*Shallan*cough*), with no real purpose in the book. But he is much, much more than that.

 

Okay, that was a bit too much of ramblings propably...

 

 

...

 

As for what Feather said about the way the scene of muder was written... I agree. We are lead to think that Adolin made a mistake. It's suggsted to us that it's going to be problematic for him in the future. We know that Adolin did the right thing, it's the way he did it that hints at future conflicts, hence the gore. I guess many of us (me definitely included) get a feeling that this will be what ultimately leads him to breaking and becoming a Radiant (there was a thread about that). It may be true, then the way this scene is written foreshadows this. I may be wrong, then this scene is meant to confuse us and lead us to false conclusions only for us to be more surprised in the end. Anyway, were the scene written differently, we would propably think much less about its possible implications.

[maxal she/her]

I see your point. But if you didn't mention "average reader not 17th sharder" I would propably argue with you Most people read the book, come to the conclusions basing only on what is most obvious in the text or even opinions of other in-book characters. But some think more of it and come to different conclusions. Take my parents for example - all 3 of us read WoK (only I read WoR by now...). I had my views on the characters, some of them changed after reading WoR or discussing on this forum, but generally I still stick to my personal opinions. My dad read the book only for pleasure and as soon as he finished he went to read other books. He doesn't think about it at all. No interesting discussions with him. My mom was a bit more aware reader but whenever I try to talk to her, she doesn't try to look deeper at the characters motivations and personalities. We may discuss events but not characters. And she even chastises me for overthinking a book instead on focusing on real life - that's the reason I joined 17th Shard, here I can discuss whatever I want and nobody minds that Anyway, basing on my talk with my mom I can say that  maxal is completely right. My mom sees Kaladin as a main character and a hero, no matter what. Kaladin is my favourite character, but I see his flaws and mistakes. She doesn't, unless it was pointed out in the text. She sees Adolin as a spoiled, rich kid. I see that he is a spoiled, rich kid, but a very nice and caring one. I see that he acts like he does because that's how he was raised, not because he thinks himself better due to haughtiness. My mom says that Adolin was stupid to argue with Kaladin at the Tower - he was trying to save him, after all. But she doesn't look at this from Adolin's perspective - he wanted to save his father, no matter what, the fact that a darkeye tried to order him around was actually secondary. It's sad, but that's how most people reads the books. Only the ones willing to ponder and think more about it all see the truth - the characters are not exactly what they seems. For most Adolin is just a spoiled prince, not very bright and easy to manipulate (*cough*Shallan*cough*), with no real purpose in the book. But he is much, much more than that.

 

I tend to make the distinction between your every day reader and the 17th sharder that spends time discussing events and characters. Not everyone that enjoys those books dig into it the way we do and most end up sticking to their first impression. The wife of one of my colleague read SA upon my recommendation. She truly enjoyed it and I asked for her impression on characters. She pretty agree with your mom I would say: Kaladin is the hero and her favorite character, Adolin is a rich spoiled kid nothing more. I try to introduce her to the concept of "layers", but I think she was not ready for that even if she is a very smart women, I did not get the feeling she wanted to dig more into the story, but she enjoyed it: so she'll keep reading it.

 

I think most "every day" reader will not see past the covers Brandon is showing us. He has fleshed out Kaladin, as a character, from the inside as oppose to from the outside, like he did on Adolin. Kaladin therefore comes out as a true hero as we are privy to his every motivations, even the doubtful one (*cough*Elhokar*cough*). Adolin comes out as arrogant.... I like the fact your mom thought he was stupid to argue with Kaladin... Her reaction is a completely normal one and I think it is the one Brandon expected most readers would have, but us, more avid ones know better. If we go and read back this scene, Adolin goes beyond every measures to protect Dalinar during the fight. Dalinar comments on it so by the time Kaladin gets here, he is not only completely exhausted, but his armor is on its last miles. Had Kaladin not gotten there, Adolin would have probably been overthrown in the following 10 minutes. In WoR, Renarin calls Adolin out for not liking Kaladin and asks him if his dislike is linked to the fact Kaladin ordered him around. Adolin's response is quite telling: he hardly even remembers what happened. Bottom line, he was so tired by then, he does not have complete recollection of those events. You can't fault a man who's on the verge of dropping down for not being nice to a stranger even if the stranger came to save you.

 

Your mom has other common reactions I have seen: Adolin is stupid and has not purpose, he is therefore expendable (most people think he'll just die because he adds nothing to the story which is untrue). Him being stupid is something I have read quite often, even here on the 17th shards. This seems to have been triggered by his lack of glyph reading ability when he pathetically failed to not only properly identify the glyphs Navani wrote, he also failed at noticing she wrote two words and not one.... Many people later fail to see all the clever things he does while being in his element: duels and battle. He is more clever then he lets one, his talk with Shallan when he admits playing dumb was quite telling, and he is a very good strategist.

 

Now Kaladin, most people take Kaladin for a very smart person as he has keen knowledge over various things. However, I believe it is unfair to compare both young men in such way as Kaladin has been taught from a young age to memorized many things, to deduce solution based on concrete problems: patient is bleeding, what is the cause and what do we do about it. He was forced to learn his glyphs whereas it is obvious nobody saw fit to make sure Adolin learned his. However, when placed in a large battle context, Kaladin fails to see the end game and the larger picture whereas Adolin effortlessly sees it. Different upbringing. Kaladin was given a strong general knowledge formation whereas Adolin was probably dragged from battle ground to battle ground since childhood.

 

But to most readers, Kaladin is the smart chull hero and Adolin is the dumb rich spoiled kid. Nobody is surprised when the dumb rich spoiled kid goes out and do something dumb like murdering a Highprince... However, the more we are going to get in his head, I guess the more people will come to understand the character better.

 

 

 

Okay, that was a bit too much of ramblings propably...

 

What's wrong with ramblings? I like rambling with you, it is amusing

 

 

As for what Feather said about the way the scene of muder was written... I agree. We are lead to think that Adolin made a mistake. It's suggsted to us that it's going to be problematic for him in the future. We know that Adolin did the right thing, it's the way he did it that hints at future conflicts, hence the gore. I guess many of us (me definitely included) get a feeling that this will be what ultimately leads him to breaking and becoming a Radiant (there was a thread about that). It may be true, then the way this scene is written foreshadows this. I may be wrong, then this scene is meant to confuse us and lead us to false conclusions only for us to be more surprised in the end. Anyway, were the scene written differently, we would propably think much less about its possible implications.

 

Considering the amount of posts and comments I have read on the implication of the murder since the last 9 months, I would say people are indeed discussing it. The murder had a strong impact and it marked Adolin as a wild card. Nobody knows for real how he'll end up, which is quite the opposite of our other characters who ends the book in pretty good shape and place.

[Kyats Rani she/her]

...

 

It's kind of sad actually... Many great characters are hated or considered unimportant/boring by average readers (and I'm not talking only about SA now). Sometimes those are my favourite characters. I talk to somebody and they are all "what? how can you LIKE him/her?". I try to explain how said character is not what he/she seems, but rarely anybody listens. The book said so, so that must be true. Not everybody takes the effort to read bewteen the lines... I'm not saying that everyone must do this, it just seems sad that so many valuable characters are so greatly misunderstood

 

Kaladin and Adolin are in fact too different to compare, on any ground. They both are skilled at fighting - Adolin with a sword, mostly dueling style, Kaladin with a spear, trained more to typical battles with many opponets. They are both smart, Kaladin may be more skilled with words (like when he insulted Adolin who thought it was a compliment in WoR) but Adolin is more emphatetic. They are both educated - Kal in glyphs and medicine, Adolin in politics, leadership, strategy. I hate when somebody claims that one of them is generally better than the other. They are both objectively the same good only it manifests in different ways. Now, I don't mind at all anybody claiming that he/she likes one of them more. That's why every person may have own opinion. But let it stay an opinion, not be claimed as a fact, as some people do (I'm not talking about anyone on this forum of course, but there are people who act like this).

 

By now, Kaladin has a very obvious and important role in the books. Adolin doesn't, that's why people tend to dismiss him easily. I think Adolin is going to be more important, in fact he already is more vital to the plot than most readers give him credit for As for him being stupid for not knowing glyphs - who in real life expects a doctor to know trigonometric functions? He may know them but it's not neccessary for him so he doesn't have to. Same for Adolin. There is no immidiate need for him to know glyphs - he could, but does he have a reason for that? I don't think so.

 

 

 

What's wrong with ramblings? I like rambling with you, it is amusing

Oh, I love rambling I'm just afraid that not everyone would like to read it... Anyway, I'd propably ramble some more now, but my roommates remind me that I was supposed to start studying maths some half an hour ago... Time to confront integrals. I think I'd rather meet up with Szeth...

[Moogle]

Regarding the ending fight of WoR with Kaladin and Szeth, I'm a little surprised that everyone viewed it entirely as Kaladin being heroic. When I first read through it, I found Kaladin acting... well, not quite heroic. At the end of Way of Kings, Kaladin was this storm of destruction, but he was respectful and thoughtful as he killed the Parshendi, and almost wished he didn't have to. He respected them, and his sole goal was to protect Dalinar.

 

In WoR, however, Kaladin comes across as angry, unreasonable, and arrogant. Here's a few of his lines:

“You sent him to the sky to die, assassin,” Kaladin said, Stormlight puffing from his lips, “but the sky and the winds are mine. I claim them, as I now claim your life.”

 

"As I now claim your life"? Really? That's something I'd expect a slaver to say, or something.

 

Ahead, Szeth stumbled away from the princeling, holding out his sword wardingly toward Kaladin, eyes wide and lips trembling. Szeth looked horrified.

Good.

 

"Good"? Where's my hero from WoK, where he mourned the killing he had to do?

 

Burning with Stormlight, enraged and alight, Kaladin launched himself at the assassin and met him Blade against Blade.

 

Sure, he has understandable reasons for being angry (lost his bridgemen), but didn't we just spend an entire book learning that maybe hatred is a bad thing on Roshar? At the end of WoK, his response was sadness at the lost bridgemen, not anger at their killers.

 

“The Knights Radiant,” Szeth screamed, “cannot have returned.”

“They have,” Kaladin said, yanking his spear back. “And they’re going to kill you.” 

 

This one should stand on its own as being just a bit questionable as Kaladin shows off some bloodlust.

 

It might be that I'm not quite the regular reader of SA, but Kaladin's arc really did did not do it for me in WoR.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Moogle