Guaranteed Breath-Passing

[Trusk'our he/him]

So, okay. We know I believe, seeing WaT's apparent Spren/gem Hemalurgy that it should be possible to create functional Hemalurgic spikes without needing to excise Spiritweb fragments from a donor. You just need an alternative source of power and a medium to hold and splice it into the receiver.

I think, then, that if a Nalthian were to put their Breath into a spike (probably metal, but I don't know if it requires a specific focus, such as nicrosil) and then pierce themselves with that spike in an appropriate bindpoint with the Intent of using Hemalurgy they might be able to essentially retain their Breath but preserve it for descendants after they die. Their child (or other associate) would take the spike from the corpse of the original Nalthian, then pierce themselves with it to gain functional access (though they may not be able to Awaken with it or remove it from the spike since it has a differing Identity). This process continues, allowing a reservoir of Breath to be saved up for future generations without the chance of it being lost to untimely death.

This might also have an extra boon, since unlike standard Hemalurgic spikes Breath isn't supposed to decay so easily from inanimate containers (well, it seems it might have been retconned to do such, but it's not a big issue overall), nor have an initial decay and subsequent loss of power.

It'd also be interesting to see how a continuous Investment in such spikes would cause them to change and develop over time. Maybe they'd take on extra Intents and push the spike bearers, perhaps even more than regular Breath since it's wedged into a crack in the Spiritweb.

 

Definitely some drawbacks to this, namely some Spiritweb damage and the fact that someone else might be able to steal your spike and the Breath within, but it might still be a viable sidegrade to vanilla Breath transferring.

Edited October 14, 2025 by Trusk'our

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

11 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

So, okay. We know from WaT's Spren/gem Hemalurgy that it should be possible to create functional Hemalurgic spikes without needing to excise Spiritweb fragments from a donor. You just need an alternative source of power and a medium to hold and splice it into the receiver.

I think, then, that if a Nalthian were to put their Breath into a spike (probably metal, but I don't know if it requires a specific focus, such as nicrosil) and then pierce themselves with that spike in an appropriate bindpoint with the Intent of using Hemalurgy they might be able to essentially retain their Breath but preserve it for descendants after they die. Their child (or other associate) would take the spike from the corpse of the original Nalthian, then pierce themselves with it to gain functional access (though they may not be able to Awaken with it or remove it from the spike since it has a differing Identity). This process continues, allowing a reservoir of Breath to be saved up for future generations without the chance of it being lost to untimely death.

This might also have an extra boon, since unlike standard Hemalurgic spikes Breath isn't supposed to decay so easily from inanimate containers (well, it seems it might have been retconned to do such, but it's not a big issue overall), nor have an initial decay and subsequent loss of power.

It'd also be interesting to see how a continuous Investment in such spikes would cause them to change and develop over time. Maybe they'd take on extra Intents and push the spike bearers, perhaps even more than regular Breath since it's wedged into a crack in the Spiritweb.

 

Definitely some drawbacks to this, namely some Spiritweb damage and the fact that someone else might be able to steal your spike and the Breath within, but it might still be a viable sidegrade to vanilla Breath transferring.

Not sure on how exactly this would work. We don't know for sure if you can just stick Breath into a piece of metal without Greater Awakening, and even if you could you would need to have the spike have a charge of Hemalurgy, at least a little so it counts as a Hemalurgic Spike and won't kill whoever you're stabbing it into.

But here's the thing, I don't think this would work like you say for one reason, the Breath is still keyed to someone else.

Lets take an example, lets say a Pewter Ferring filled a Pewter Spike with some strength, stabbed a Feruchemist for a Physical ability, then stuck that spike into another Pewter Feruchemist. That spiked Brute is not going to be able to tap the strength already stored into their spike, since they didn't put it in there. The Identity is still a problem, the same goes for this 'Breath Spike', if a Nalthian placed their Breath in a spike and put it into someone else, that doesn't make that other person able to use the Breath in anyway, or even benefit from it as just a Heightening. They're just gonna have a spike in them that has a Breath in it. I don't think this works, not the way you want it to. Unless you can properly hack Awakening and Hemalurgy together but there's no confirmation on that.

[Trusk'our he/him]

11 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Not sure on how exactly this would work. We don't know for sure if you can just stick Breath into a piece of metal without Greater Awakening,

It is possible for anyone with a Breath to put it in an inanimate object, and it is also possible for an Awakener (and I would assume any Nalthian or persona with even a single Breath to their name) to store Breath in a metal object- they just can't Awaken it.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/250-warbreaker-annotations/#e7284

Brandon Sanderson

Parlin Is Dead

Parlin was always meant to die here. That's one of the main reasons I left Vivenna with someone from Idris to be in her team, in fact. (The other reason is that I found it unrealistic that she wouldn't have somebody with her.)

Maybe this is why Parlin never worked as a character, to be honest. I wonder if he was always in my mind as the character who was going to get killed by Tonk Fah, which kept me from giving him enough depth. I'm not sure; I do know that in the book as it stands, he's probably the biggest component I wish I had time to change. I'm not certain what I could put in his place that wouldn't distract too much from the plot—and wouldn't take away from the humor of Denth and the mercenaries—but would still be sympathetic enough that when he dies here, it would be more powerful. But I would have liked to have found something.

Tonk Fah tortured him to death. He wasn't supposed to, but he got carried away. It was an accident, as Denth claims. (Denth shouldn't have left Tonks alone with the prisoner to continue the torturing.) Denth came back and found Parlin dead, and was annoyed and frustrated. He left Tonks behind, storming out in anger, and eventually found Jewels and Clod, who were talking to slum contacts and trying to find Vivenna. They came back to regroup.

Meanwhile, Tonks heard Vivenna enter, and knew it wasn't Denth. He put his Breath into his clothing, then ducked back under the stairs, his lantern extinguished, wondering who had come. He wasn't terribly surprised to find Vivenna. That was when Denth and Jewels got back and the rest of the situation went down.

I added the corpses of Vivenna's father's agents in the last draft, by the way, since I figured I wanted it to be more obvious what had happened to them.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/263-chris-king-interview/#e10408

Chris King

Can you store Breath in metal without the [Ninth] Heightening? Just put it there without Awakening, just to hide the Breath.

Brandon Sanderson

Can you hide Breath in-- Yes you can hide Breath in things.

Chris King

Metal in particular, without the [Ninth] Heightening could you put it into metal. Without the purpose of Awakening it, just storing it there.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh without the [Ninth] Heightening-- I would say yes you could.

 

11 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

 and even if you could you would need to have the spike have a charge of Hemalurgy, at least a little so it counts as a Hemalurgic Spike and won't kill whoever you're stabbing it into.

There's a real chance it wouldn't work if done that way, yeah. 

I'd say that the chance of Breath put in a nicrosil spike working as a true Hemalurgic spike isn't implausible though. We don't have all the details yet, but Spren seem to be a viable alternative to fuel spikes. I don't think Breaths are too far away from what Spren are- they have somewhat versatile programming in them and are shaped pieces of living beings, even if they don't have autonomy of their own.

11 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

But here's the thing, I don't think this would work like you say for one reason, the Breath is still keyed to someone else.

Lets take an example, lets say a Pewter Ferring filled a Pewter Spike with some strength, stabbed a Feruchemist for a Physical ability, then stuck that spike into another Pewter Feruchemist. That spiked Brute is not going to be able to tap the strength already stored into their spike, since they didn't put it in there. The Identity is still a problem, the same goes for this 'Breath Spike', if a Nalthian placed their Breath in a spike and put it into someone else, that doesn't make that other person able to use the Breath in anyway, or even benefit from it as just a Heightening. They're just gonna have a spike in them that has a Breath in it. I don't think this works, not the way you want it to. Unless you can properly hack Awakening and Hemalurgy together but there's no confirmation on that.

Metalminds used as substitutes for traditional Hemalurgic spikes would also be pretty neat, and I'm guessing there's a way to make it work, but as you suggest it probably takes some extra fiddling to give it the correct structure to attach to a Spiritweb. I have a hunch that Breaths are somewhat more advanced than your typical Metalmind though, as they aren't just fuel, but the power to use that fuel itself.

As for Identity contamination, I don't think that this would be too burdensome. I mean, Hemalurgic spikes as they stand now pretty much always have a differing Identity from their bearers, yet they work pretty well.

 

[Sythrin]

On 9/14/2025 at 5:43 PM, Trusk'our said:

So, okay. We know from WaT's Spren/gem Hemalurgy that it should be possible to create functional Hemalurgic spikes without needing to excise Spiritweb fragments from a donor. You just need an alternative source of power and a medium to hold and splice it into the receiver.

How do you come to that conclusion? Who says you dont need a spike donor?
We dont know how the gemspikes of Moash were made before they were implemented.

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 minutes ago, Sythrin said:

How do you come to that conclusion? Who says you dont need a spike donor?
We dont know how the gemspikes of Moash were made before they were implemented.

I think it should be possible given Ishar using gems to spike Spren to walls and metals being the only known focus to excise Spiritweb fragments for the purpose of creating Hemalurgic spikes, but your statement is true, I don't know it's the case.

I should have been a more careful in my wording. I apologize. 

[Sythrin]

9 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

I think it should be possible given Ishar using gems to spike Spren to walls and metals being the only known focus to excise Spiritweb fragments for the purpose of creating Hemalurgic spikes, but your statement is true, I don't know it's the case.

I should have been a more careful in my wording. I apologize. 

I think for a spike to be functional, the main compartment is that is has a fragment of a soul inside. How it comes, is mostly with metal that you can rip a part off. But not sure if you can infuse just a gemstone with a spren and tahts enough.
But there is some interesting hemalurgic discovery in the cosmereRPG. If you want. I can tell you about it if you dont know about it already.

[Trusk'our he/him]

6 hours ago, Sythrin said:

I think for a spike to be functional, the main compartment is that is has a fragment of a soul inside. How it comes, is mostly with metal that you can rip a part off. But not sure if you can infuse just a gemstone with a spren and tahts enough.
But there is some interesting hemalurgic discovery in the cosmereRPG. If you want. I can tell you about it if you dont know about it already.

Yes. Do it. Spoilers be screwed.

Though, maybe put it in a spoiler box for the benefit of others.

Edited October 14, 2025 by Trusk'our

[Sythrin]

22 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

Yes. Do it. Spoilers be screwed.

Though, maybe put it in a spoiler box for the benefit of others

Spoiler

We find out about the Shadowform of the singers. Its a form of power that comes from Shadowspren and was created by Mishram.
But she did not know what would happen. Upon taking on the form, the Singers became living shadows. Loosing all of their physical body, except their gemhearts that lay on the floor. And they could not leave that form.
In the RPG-Adventure Stonwalkers. Some adveseraries, make spikes out of them them and pierce themselfs with the left over gems. Making the shadow-singers take over their bodies and create some form of black mist around them. Granting them as well abilities that are shadow related, like teleporting to nearby shadows or shadowclaws.

Its not directly mentioned that its hemalurgy. But I believe its more indicitive that it has something to do with it. After all, they are literaly spiking their hearts themselfs.

 

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, Sythrin said:

  Hide contents

We find out about the Shadowform of the singers. Its a form of power that comes from Shadowspren and was created by Mishram.
But she did not know what would happen. Upon taking on the form, the Singers became living shadows. Loosing all of their physical body, except their gemhearts that lay on the floor. And they could not leave that form.
In the RPG-Adventure Stonwalkers. Some adveseraries, make spikes out of them them and pierce themselfs with the left over gems. Making the shadow-singers take over their bodies and create some form of black mist around them. Granting them as well abilities that are shadow related, like teleporting to nearby shadows or shadowclaws.

Its not directly mentioned that its hemalurgy. But I believe its more indicitive that it has something to do with it. After all, they are literaly spiking their hearts themselfs.

 

Oh yeah, I already knew that part.

I honestly don't mind reading from the Stonewalkers forum.

Thanks for sharing anyway, I appreciate that you took the time!

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

On 9/14/2025 at 12:05 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

But here's the thing, I don't think this would work like you say for one reason, the Breath is still keyed to someone else.

Lets take an example, lets say a Pewter Ferring filled a Pewter Spike with some strength, stabbed a Feruchemist for a Physical ability, then stuck that spike into another Pewter Feruchemist. That spiked Brute is not going to be able to tap the strength already stored into their spike, since they didn't put it in there. The Identity is still a problem, the same goes for this 'Breath Spike', if a Nalthian placed their Breath in a spike and put it into someone else, that doesn't make that other person able to use the Breath in anyway, or even benefit from it as just a Heightening. They're just gonna have a spike in them that has a Breath in it. I don't think this works, not the way you want it to. Unless you can properly hack Awakening and Hemalurgy together but there's no confirmation on that.

The mechanics of when breath can and can't be transferred is one of the things eating away at me in my theories on the spiritual aspects of invested arts.

Its super easy to transfer between individuals, with a simple command (statement of intent). It doesn't seem to have identity contamination the way metalminds and hemalurgic spikes do, since you can use any breath you have, no matter who gave it to you or how many people it came from.

However, breath stored in an object can only be retrieved be the one who put it there. 

My guess is that the command to transfer breath allows the breath to be "rewritten" to a new identity during transfer. If the recipient is a living thing, it is rewritten to match the new identity. If the recipient is nonliving, it keeps the original identity, and thus can only be retrieved by the person who put it there. The issue is that SLA and The Emperor's Soul show us that even inanimate objects have a soul and identity of their own, so there has to be more specific nuance than that...

[Sythrin]

On 10/15/2025 at 8:26 PM, DracoAdamantus said:

Its super easy to transfer between individuals, with a simple command (statement of intent). It doesn't seem to have identity contamination the way metalminds and hemalurgic spikes do, since you can use any breath you have, no matter who gave it to you or how many people it came from.

I think the main reason is that the Shard behind it is „endowment“

The act of giving practicly. No strings attached. The investiture is inheritly build on being transferable.

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

On 10/17/2025 at 8:09 AM, Sythrin said:

I think the main reason is that the Shard behind it is „endowment“

The act of giving practicly. No strings attached. The investiture is inheritly build on being transferable.

It's inherently transferrable, but I wouldn't say there are no strings attached. There are rules and limitations on how breath can be transferred, at least from what we know so far.

1. When transferring from person to person, it has to be given (the person giving the breath speaks the command)
2. When retrieving breath from an awakened object, it has to be taken (the person gaining the breath speaks the command)
3. You cannot retrieve breath from an awakened object that you did not put there yourself

There isn't identity contamination going straight from one person to another, but there is (what I assume to be) identity contamination when breath is put to an object, because of rule 3.

What I was getting at in the rest of the post is how does this mechanically work from the aspect of the spiritual component of invested arts (connection, identity, intent, etc.), which is inherent to the whole Cosmere.

[Sythrin]

I mean that the receiver has no string attached.
Normally the meaning is for the receiver and not the giver.

2 hours ago, DracoAdamantus said:

's inherently transferrable, but I wouldn't say there are no strings attached. There are rules and limitations on how breath can be transferred, at least from what we know so far.

1. When transferring from person to person, it has to be given (the person giving the breath speaks the command)
2. When retrieving breath from an awakened object, it has to be taken (the person gaining the breath speaks the command)
3. You cannot retrieve breath from an awakened object that you did not put there yourself

There isn't identity contamination going straight from one person to another, but there is (what I assume to be) identity contamination when breath is put to an object, because of rule 3.

What I was getting at in the rest of the post is how does this mechanically work from the aspect of the spiritual component of invested arts (connection, identity, intent, etc.), which is inherent to the whole Cosmere

 

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

Was looking on the Arcanum for something else, but happened on this WoB:

Spoiler

Mojonero

If someone without Identity Awakened an object, would anyone be able to recall the Breath? Would they need to have any breath to recall it, or could it be done by anyone at all?

Brandon Sanderson

If you could blank Identity + Awaken, yes, anyone could get it back.

(Requires intent)

RoW Release Party (Nov. 17, 2020)

So it is almost certainly identity contamination that prevents you from recalling breath from an object that another placed there.

[Qianweilian He/him]

On 10/20/2025 at 2:49 PM, DracoAdamantus said:

So it is almost certainly identity contamination that prevents you from recalling breath from an object that another placed there.

If someone was blanking their identity, could you take their breath directly?

[DracoAdamantus he/him]

On 10/22/2025 at 12:51 PM, Qianweilian said:

If someone was blanking their identity, could you take their breath directly?

A few WoBs seem to indicate something like that may be possible.

Spoiler

Djarskublar

I'd like confirmation/denial of a theory of mine. Is the reason people can recall breaths from objects but not Lifeless or sentient awakened objects because they no longer have the same Identity as the awakener?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on the right track.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 20, 2016)

Spoiler

sebarial

Would a Feruchemist actively storing Identity be more susceptible to Forgery? Would more outlandish changes be able to take effect? Thanks for your time, and have a wonderful day.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, if you store Identity, it makes you susceptible to ALL KINDS of things in the Cosmere. Forgery would be on the short list.

bubblebooy

Does the difficulty of affecting metals in a body with Allomancy have to do with Identity?

Brandon Sanderson

No, more to do with the fact that most people are innately Invested in the Cosmere--and certain planets have extra Investiture. Something Invested is more difficult to transform/move/etc with another form of Investiture.

bubblebooy

That is what I had originally thought before you capitalized "ALL KINDS." Is Soulcasting people like Jasnah Kholin did doubly hard since people a have a strong sense of Identity and have innate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

We're getting a bit far on this course, so it's time to pull out the RAFOs. I don't want to overplay my hand and leave the books without anything to talk about.

Phantine

Does that 'inside a body' thing work on most magics?

For instance, if Han stuck Luke into a Mistborn Tauntaun (a distant and unlucky relative of the mistborn llama), would Luke be protected from both the cold and emotional allomancy?

Brandon Sanderson

He'd have to get him inside a living one.

It does work on most magics, though the interactions can be odd unless you know a lot about the workings. Emotional Allomancy, for example, works by lapping against the outsides of someone's cognitive self, influencing you the way music might stir your soul. So being inside a living body wouldn't necessarily stop it--you'd just have more interference. Kind of like how you can still hear music outside if it's loud enough.

Actual mind control in the cosmere requires you to get INSIDE the soul, which you've seen happen frequently enough. There has to be a gap or an opening.

Or, conversely, you just have to be so powerful that you can push through the interference.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 14, 2015)

Spoiler

Djarskublar

*inaudible* [I asked if it would be possible to recall Breaths from an object that you had not placed there if the Awakener who did place them there had no Identity at the time.]

Brandon Sanderson

So, this is a very detailed, specific question, if you didn't hear it. It's dealing with the idea of Investiture and Identity, and things like this. If you can unkey the magic with Identity, for almost any case, it's going to make it much easier for other people to use. That's gonna be a blanket statement through the cosmere. If you can blank your Identity, it's at least gonna be able to be used by someone else with a blank Identity. Sometimes it's keyed, so the blank will not work with somebody who is themselves keyed. But if you can blank and they can blank, you can almost always guarantee the magic will be able to be used.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)