Why Kharbranth was preserved

[Nitpicking]

My reading of the end of Wind and Truth is that Taravangian-Odium, and later Retribution, was (or felt that he was) bound by Rayse's oaths, thus the Duel of Champions still happened.

Rayse promised to preserve Kharbranth and anyone born there.

Thus, Taravangian could not destroy Kharbranth without weakening himself so much that Cultivation could kill him.

Hmm ... will he be defeated in the Back Half when someone enrages him at the wrong time, and he kills a Kharbranthian?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

22 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

My reading of the end of Wind and Truth is that Taravangian-Odium, and later Retribution, was (or felt that he was) bound by Rayse's oaths, thus the Duel of Champions still happened.

Rayse promised to preserve Kharbranth and anyone born there.

Thus, Taravangian could not destroy Kharbranth without weakening himself so much that Cultivation could kill him.

Hmm ... will he be defeated in the Back Half when someone enrages him at the wrong time, and he kills a Kharbranthian?

No, He couldn't break Odium's Oaths. Rayse made some Oaths as Odium and some as Rayse. The Odium Oaths were inherited and the Rayse Oaths werent.

[Nitpicking]

Why do you think that Odium and Rayse had separate oaths, and that Taravangian is not bound by the latter?

[Kansas Stormcursed he/him]

20 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

Why do you think that Odium and Rayse had separate oaths, and that Taravangian is not bound by the latter?

It's established that there are both kinds of oaths, because Rayse made the oath not to exploit loopholes as himself and not as Odium, so Taravangian wasn't forced to uphold that oath, although he did have to follow the agreement to a contest of champions, which was made as Odium and not just as Rayse.

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Kaladin Stormcursed said:

It's established that there are both kinds of oaths, because Rayse made the oath not to exploit loopholes as himself and not as Odium, so Taravangian wasn't forced to uphold that oath, although he did have to follow the agreement to a contest of champions, which was made as Odium and not just as Rayse.

Yeah

that

[BinarySecond]

I think the physical destruction of Kharbrant is a violation of the oath Rayse made in his capacity as Odium.

 

It will come back to bite Taravangian but the issue is the deal was secret between him and Rayse. Not sure how it can be exploited without knowledge of it.

 

I suspect Honour itself will play a part in the downfall.

[Nitpicking]

13 hours ago, Kaladin Stormcursed said:

It's established that there are both kinds of oaths, because Rayse made the oath not to exploit loopholes as himself and not as Odium, so Taravangian wasn't forced to uphold that oath, although he did have to follow the agreement to a contest of champions, which was made as Odium and not just as Rayse.

I have no memory of this. That's in the text of the book?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

6 minutes ago, Nitpicking said:

I have no memory of this. That's in the text of the book?

Yep.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

15 hours ago, Kaladin Stormcursed said:

It's established that there are both kinds of oaths, because Rayse made the oath not to exploit loopholes as himself and not as Odium, so Taravangian wasn't forced to uphold that oath, although he did have to follow the agreement to a contest of champions, which was made as Odium and not just as Rayse.

Was the loophole thing just not a formal oath though? I thought that was just Rayse describing his individual nature and his personal Intent, whereas Taravangian as an individual is more of the loophole seeker. I don't think there was ever anything that prevented Rayse from using loopholes other than the fact that he has been existing for thousands of years and views himself in a very set and determined way. He isn't going to change on a whim and he was never a person to exploit a loophole... so he just solidified for millenia and become more and more entrenched in his own viewpoints. 

I don't know of any examples of Rayse making oaths as Rayse and not as Odium... maybe I missed that though and you can point me to where this is explicitly called out?

Edit to add: I also don't know that Taravangian as Odium would still be required to protect Kharbranth since the oath was made with Taravangian himself.. so Taravangian would have the power of both sides of the agreement and be able to change that. I don't think he would be forced to keep an oath that the previous vessel made with him, just as Dalinar was able to represent Honor in releasing Odium from the oath they had made that trapped Odium in the system. If both parties of an oath agree that it is better to dissolve the agreement, that's not breaking the oath it's just coming to a new understanding and making a new and improved version of the agreement/terms. And he holds control over both sides now right?

Edited June 30, 2025 by CognitiveShadow
Added blurb

[+Child of Hodor]

53 minutes ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Was the loophole thing just not a formal oath though? I thought that was just Rayse describing his individual nature and his personal Intent, whereas Taravangian as an individual is more of the loophole seeker. I don't think there was ever anything that prevented Rayse from using loopholes other than the fact that he has been existing for thousands of years and views himself in a very set and determined way. He isn't going to change on a whim and he was never a person to exploit a loophole... so he just solidified for millenia and become more and more entrenched in his own viewpoints. 

I don't know of any examples of Rayse making oaths as Rayse and not as Odium... maybe I missed that though and you can point me to where this is explicitly called out?

Edit to add: I also don't know that Taravangian as Odium would still be required to protect Kharbranth since the oath was made with Taravangian himself.. so Taravangian would have the power of both sides of the agreement and be able to change that. I don't think he would be forced to keep an oath that the previous vessel made with him, just as Dalinar was able to represent Honor in releasing Odium from the oath they had made that trapped Odium in the system. If both parties of an oath agree that it is better to dissolve the agreement, that's not breaking the oath it's just coming to a new understanding and making a new and improved version of the agreement/terms. And he holds control over both sides now right?

That's a good point about Taravangian basically making an arrangement with himself that he can tweak or dissolve. 

The reasoning around why Taravangian can exploit loopholes, but the other side can't always felt like handwavy nonsense.  Why can't they change the capital or change whether capturing the capital means you control all of a country? 'Cause that's cheating ... somehow. 

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

27 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

The reasoning around why Taravangian can exploit loopholes, but the other side can't always felt like handwavy nonsense.  Why can't they change the capital or change whether capturing the capital means you control all of a country? 'Cause that's cheating ... somehow. 

To me it's all about the Identity. It's a driving force and theme in all Cosmere books. One's Idenity defines who someone is and how they will react in any given situation. I won't go too far with it and call into question the idea/illusion of free will, but ultimately each character is who they are and are going to do what they are going to do given any set of circumstances/experiences/input data. Their brains recieve the input and they act according to how they feel they must. Adolin killed Sadeas because that is just what Adolin would/did do in that situation.

Additionally, there is something to be said for what happens when a person becomes a cognitive shadow - they lose their physical form and become a being of pure investiture. Investiture is kind of rigid and flexible depending on how you look at it. It's flexible in the sense that it can be changed by outward perception and how the collective conciousness of the Cosmere views it, even to the point of gaining its own sentience (see spren). People who become cognitive shadows (regardless of whether they are still the 'same' person or merely a copy) can be influenced over long periods of time. For example, Kelsier is a cognitive shadow stapled to his old bones and there is a whole religion based on his mortal life and death with people thinking about him and praying to him and all that stuff. They focus on his ability and determination to survive and inspire hope. As millenia go on, we could expect those aspects of him to be enhanced significantly over time. Just as strong of an influence can be made by his own perception of himself. So it is often the case that these cognitive shadows get more and more dug in on their own perspectives of themselves and the world. We see a lot of the madness that can come with this condition in the heralds, though theirs is a special case that is impacted by both too many memories to keep their minds organized and the corruption of Odium's investiture through Ishar.

Rayse is a very old character. We didn't get much time with him or get to understand him very well, but Hoid certainly knew him before Ascension. From what we see of Rayse, he seems very confident that he is someone who abides by the intent of a contract and not wily methods of using loopholes or turn of phrase. We see Hoid refer to this even going so far as to say (I believe) that Rayse could not use a loophole as it would be contrary to his nature. His nature has been solidified over such a long period of time that he should be pretty easy to predict. When he realizes that he had been outsmarted by Odium, he knew that it had to be a different vessel. Again - Hoid has a long-standing relationship with Rayse and knows what to expect. It really just comes down to Rayse's nature and Identity vs Taravangian's nature and Identity. Taravangian is much more crafty and subtle/sneaky with his approach, which allowed him to take actions that Rayse personally would have been too proud to consider seriously.

It's kind of like how Dalinar, because of who he is, had to keep his oath to the Mink instead of doing what have made more rational sense in the moment. Each act we see a character take shows us more about who they are as a person and what their motivations are. Does that make sense and give some clarification as to why Taravangian was able to do things Rayse was not?

[Nitpicking]

22 hours ago, CognitiveShadow said:

Edit to add: I also don't know that Taravangian as Odium would still be required to protect Kharbranth since the oath was made with Taravangian himself.. so Taravangian would have the power of both sides of the agreement and be able to change that. I don't think he would be forced to keep an oath that the previous vessel made with him, just as Dalinar was able to represent Honor in releasing Odium from the oath they had made that trapped Odium in the system. If both parties of an oath agree that it is better to dissolve the agreement, that's not breaking the oath it's just coming to a new understanding and making a new and improved version of the agreement/terms. And he holds control over both sides now right?

That is a very good point that I missed.

[clowncarcrash]

I conceptualized Odium's not exploiting loopholes more about his Intent as Passion, to care about the spirit of the rules rather than a formal oath. I recall in the early chapters of WaT, Jasnah and Wit talking about Odium and loopholes and that topic came up. 

 

But yeah, I think Taravagian had the ability to absolve himself of the deal. I think we can agree that both parties to an agreement can stipulate to end the contract.  If Business A makes a contract that Business B needs to perform x. If Business A acquires and owns Business B, then they can relieve themself of that contract. 

Edited July 2, 2025 by clowncarcrash