Taln held a Dawnshard that stopped him from breaking

[elsecaller7]

We know from Wind and Truth that Taln attempted to kill Cultivation, presumably using a weapon given to him by Kalak. We also know that he withstood torture on Braize for 4,500 years without ever breaking. This theory proposes that the weapon Taln used to attempt to kill Cultivation was a Dawnshard, which then imprinted on his soul, preventing him from breaking while on Braize.

Among the possibilities for the weapon that Taln could have used to try to kill Cultivation, the Dawnshards rank pretty high. Other than Nightblood, which didn't exist yet, the Dawnshards are the only weapons that we know of that have been used to kill a God. Some kind of anti-Investiture weapon might work as well, but I think we can be reasonable certain that those wouldn't have been around at that time either. There really isn't a candidate that we know of for a weapon that could have been used to harm a God at that time other than a Dawnshard. Additionally, we know that Taln's soul is warped from his attempt to kill Cultivation. While that warping need not necessarily have been caused by the weapon (for instance, it could have been caused by Cultivation's response), we know that holding a Dawnshard warps the soul. We've seen that warping manifest in Sigzil's and Hoid's Torments, preventing them from directly harming others.

I believe that Taln held a Dawnshard whose Torment made it so that he could not give in to his torture on Braize. There are several possibilities for a Dawnshard Command that would cause this torment. For instance, a Dawnshard with a Command similar to Honor's Intent might prevent him from breaking, as Taln swore an oath to protect Roshar at the founding of the Oathpact, and breaking might be seen as a violation of that oath. Or the Command may be related to protection itself, or to resolve. Either way, it seems plausible that of the two Dawnshards with unkown Commands, one might cause a torment that would have resulted in Taln being unable to break.

This theory seems to me to best explain what we know about Taln. A Dawnshard fits with the attempt to kill Cultivation and his having a warped soul. In addition, the fact that Taln never broke despite 4,500 years of torture seems unrealistic to me as the result of human willpower alone. I also like this theory because it gives the Heralds' betrayal of Taln a lot more bite. While the Heralds made their choice to transfer most of the Oathpact to Taln without consulting him, the plan essentially requires Taln's consent as well, assuming he can choose whether or not to break. It's not much of a betrayal if Taln can make the effects of the betrayal moot by choosing to break. But if he has no choice, if the other Heralds abandoned him to be tortured on Braize alone, knowing that he could never give in to stop it...that would be quite the betrayal indeed.

So, that's my theory. I'll note one potential counterargument, which is that Taln was given his weapon by Kalak, yet Kalak clearly does not suffer from a Torment that prevents him from breaking. I think there are two ways to explain this, the first being that Kalak led Taln to the Dawnshard without holding it himself, and the second that Kalak didn't hold the Dawnshard for long enough to be affected by the Torment. (I'm not sure how long one has to hold the Dawnshard to suffer a Torment.) I think this theory nicely explains what we know about Taln, and it puts a darker spin on his abandonment by the Heralds. Let me know what you all think!

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

That would definitely explain some things, and seems like a natural fit, almost... too fitting...

It could be the mother of all red herrings, but it does line up.

And yeah, that betrayal would sting more, because all the one's that could choose to break it chose to leave behind the one that couldn't. Like it was for the best and it kind of worked out, but still kind of sucks that it had to happen at all.

[earthexile]

I know he's probably a kind of traumatized that we can't even comprehend because no living mind has ever endured more than a century of torture, let alone thousands of years, but still- he really doesn't seem upset about how it all went down. When he saw what he'd accomplished he was thrilled, and he has offered forgiveness to the Heralds. 

On the other hand, if someone warped my soul to make me into someone who wouldn't consider quitting, maybe I couldn't consider being pissed at them either.

[Isilel]

On 6/28/2025 at 2:00 PM, elsecaller7 said:

But if he has no choice, if the other Heralds abandoned him to be tortured on Braize alone, knowing that he could never give in to stop it...that would be quite the betrayal indeed

 

I always thought that the apostate Heralds plan to abandon the Oathpact didn't make sense if Taln could choose to give in. The fact that he hadn't until Aharietam wasn't any kind of reasonable guarantee that he'd be able to hold out forever on his lonesome.

I used to think that  Ishar had changed the Oathpact, so that the loophole of being able to  give in was closed to Taln. 

But after WaT, the effect of a Dawnshard makes more sense - and IMHO, Ishar was aware of it when he made his  decision.

Taln is also unique among his colleagues in that he was apparently born on Roshar and had never been touched by Odium before he became a Herald. That could only have helped.

 

It suddenly occurres to me, that the Poem of Ista could have been a garbled account of Taln's attack on Cultivation:

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, towards grand  temple above"

These huge steps obviously weren't sized for Heralds, but would have fit  Cultivation in her dragon form. As  a god she may well have had a temple  back then. Or maybe a palace?

And, well, so far as we know at this point, a  Dawnshard wasn't openly used for anything else of note on Roshar and would have been a logical weapon to try to kill a god with.

Edited July 1, 2025 by Isilel

[Born of Mist He/Him]

On 6/28/2025 at 5:00 AM, elsecaller7 said:

We know from Wind and Truth that Taln attempted to kill Cultivation, presumably using a weapon given to him by Kalak. We also know that he withstood torture on Braize for 4,500 years without ever breaking. This theory proposes that the weapon Taln used to attempt to kill Cultivation was a Dawnshard, which then imprinted on his soul, preventing him from breaking while on Braize.

Among the possibilities for the weapon that Taln could have used to try to kill Cultivation, the Dawnshards rank pretty high. Other than Nightblood, which didn't exist yet, the Dawnshards are the only weapons that we know of that have been used to kill a God. Some kind of anti-Investiture weapon might work as well, but I think we can be reasonable certain that those wouldn't have been around at that time either. There really isn't a candidate that we know of for a weapon that could have been used to harm a God at that time other than a Dawnshard. Additionally, we know that Taln's soul is warped from his attempt to kill Cultivation. While that warping need not necessarily have been caused by the weapon (for instance, it could have been caused by Cultivation's response), we know that holding a Dawnshard warps the soul. We've seen that warping manifest in Sigzil's and Hoid's Torments, preventing them from directly harming others.

I believe that Taln held a Dawnshard whose Torment made it so that he could not give in to his torture on Braize. There are several possibilities for a Dawnshard Command that would cause this torment. For instance, a Dawnshard with a Command similar to Honor's Intent might prevent him from breaking, as Taln swore an oath to protect Roshar at the founding of the Oathpact, and breaking might be seen as a violation of that oath. Or the Command may be related to protection itself, or to resolve. Either way, it seems plausible that of the two Dawnshards with unkown Commands, one might cause a torment that would have resulted in Taln being unable to break.

This theory seems to me to best explain what we know about Taln. A Dawnshard fits with the attempt to kill Cultivation and his having a warped soul. In addition, the fact that Taln never broke despite 4,500 years of torture seems unrealistic to me as the result of human willpower alone. I also like this theory because it gives the Heralds' betrayal of Taln a lot more bite. While the Heralds made their choice to transfer most of the Oathpact to Taln without consulting him, the plan essentially requires Taln's consent as well, assuming he can choose whether or not to break. It's not much of a betrayal if Taln can make the effects of the betrayal moot by choosing to break. But if he has no choice, if the other Heralds abandoned him to be tortured on Braize alone, knowing that he could never give in to stop it...that would be quite the betrayal indeed.

So, that's my theory. I'll note one potential counterargument, which is that Taln was given his weapon by Kalak, yet Kalak clearly does not suffer from a Torment that prevents him from breaking. I think there are two ways to explain this, the first being that Kalak led Taln to the Dawnshard without holding it himself, and the second that Kalak didn't hold the Dawnshard for long enough to be affected by the Torment. (I'm not sure how long one has to hold the Dawnshard to suffer a Torment.) I think this theory nicely explains what we know about Taln, and it puts a darker spin on his abandonment by the Heralds. Let me know what you all think!

Very interesting theory. I like it! Which dawnshard do you think he held?

[Nitpicking]

Hey, do you think Brandon meant Taln to be the tortured child in Omelas?

[Xanpheon]

Here's my issue with this theory, no matter how interesting it would be:

Roshar is already an anomaly in the Cosmere, even more so than Scadrial. Home to not one, not two, but at least three shards (depending what happens with the 4th moon and the information we've heard about Valour so far). It's also home to a Dawnshard already, Change.

The Sleepless were shocked, completely, by the fact that two Dawnshards existed on the same planet at the same time, in Exist and Change held by Hoid and Rysn. A weapon being used to try and kill a Shard would almost certainly be remembered, and investigated, by the Sleepless. I doubt Taln would be able to hide it from their investigation.

The point I'm trying to make is that the chance of there being 3 separate Dawnshards on a single world seems so vanishingly small as to be incredibly unlikely.