Ruin's Perpendicularity

[Denissimo He/him]

So, a Perpendicularity is where a Shard's power is focussed, yes? In the case of Preservation it was the well, in the case of Ruin it was the pits and for Harmony its somewhere in the south (so says the coppermind).
And both Ruin's and Preservation's (IDK harmony) Perpendicularity manifests as a pool of liquid.
The Kandra homeland is also beneath the Pits.
Is Ruin's Perpendicularity in the homeland? What would have happened if a Kandra jumped in? 
DID a Kandra jump in? Also, HOW did Preservation take away some of Ruin's power? I know Leras put it in circulation around Hathsin, so atium geodes began to form, but that is all very vague I think.

[Treamayne]

2 hours ago, Denisimo said:

So, a Perpendicularity is where a Shard's power is focussed, yes? In the case of Preservation it was the well, in the case of Ruin it was the pits and for Harmony its somewhere in the south (so says the coppermind).
And both Ruin's and Preservation's (IDK harmony) Perpendicularity manifests as a pool of liquid.
 

Focused is the wrong term. Basically, a Shard invested in a world will cause their power to permeate the world, which will result in leaking power coalescing in at least one location to form a Perpendicularty (though they can be made artifically too). That Perpendicularity can be a Well, but that is not the only form it can take. 

Ruin's Perpendiclarity was not a Well, it was teh Pits themselves, surrounded by many many tiny "wells" in the geodes that grew Atium. There was even interplanetary Trade happening in the Cognitive Realm outside of the Pits ()

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Questioner

In the cosmere we've seen Investiture manifest in different ways all across the systems. So I was wondering, when it comes to the powers of Dalinar, is it possible for that power to open a Perpendicularity anywhere, say on Scadrial or any different planet? In a different way, where you could potentially combine all the Realms, open the doors for the Realms.

Brandon Sanderson

Let me say this very carefully. I'm being recorded now... Any time where you gather the right amount of Investiture in the right way, you are going to have kind of a version of a cosmere singularity, right? Which is where you are pulling the different Realms together into a kind of-- you are piercing between them with a large amount of Investiture. So what's happening with Dalinar is both the bug and the feature at the same time. But it is not necessarily the only way. And once things are kind of, once the Spiritual Realm is being involved, time and space don't mean anything anymore on the Spiritual Realm. That's your answer.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)

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Questioner

Hoid worldhops between places. How did he do it on Scadrial? With Ati's body?

Brandon Sanderson

So, there were two perpendicularities on Scadrial.

Questioner

I know he uses the pools, but how did he do it with Pits of Hathsin? There was no pool? The body was there...

Brandon Sanderson

So, it doesn't have to be going through the pool. What happens with a perpendicularity is, where there is a massive collection of Investiture, it pulls a conduit through. So, if you know what you're doing and where you are, you can get through that.
 

Edited for length and relevance Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

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TurtletheFlsh

So we know both Cultivation and Honor have Shardpools on Roshar and we also know that Odium is around somewhere on Roshar, does this mean he also has a Shardpool somewhere on Roshar?

Brandon Sanderson

Shardpools, as they are called, are a natural effect of a Shard spending a lot of time on a world.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 24, 2015)

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Questioner

In Secret History, Hoid says something to Kelsier about him destroying the Pits and destroying an entire mercantile system. Is he talking about literal inter-Realmic trade?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Interplanetary trade, yes.

Questioner

Follow-up: Is House Venture involved?

Brandon Sanderson

House Venture is not involved. People in House Venture might be.

Questioner

The guy who--

Brandon Sanderson

Here is a RAFO card for your follow-up. House Venture is-- Yes.

Footnote: The questioner was likely referring to Felt, a spy that worked for House Venture, who is a worldhopper.
Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

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Khyrindor

Was Felt cosmere-aware during Era 1?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Khyrindor

Was he directly involved in the interplanetary trade through the Pits?

Brandon Sanderson

He was involved. Whether directly is the right term or not I will not say.

Edited for length and relevance

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

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The Kandra homeland is also beneath the Pits.
Is Ruin's Perpendicularity in the homeland? What would have happened if a Kandra jumped in? 
DID a Kandra jump in?

No, the Kandra Homeland was in a cave system near the Pits, and with at least one tunnel that connected to them - but not "under" the Pits. We know at least one Kandra is a worldhopper before MeLaan left Scadrial in TLM. 

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Questioner

Have we seen the worldhopping kandra on-screen in Oathbringer?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I believe you have. Ahhhh, yes, she gets around. 

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

 

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Also, HOW did Preservation take away some of Ruin's power? I know Leras put it in circulation around Hathsin, so atium geodes began to form, but that is all very vague I think.

We don't know for certain, other that it is related to at least noe method a Shard may Splinter another Shard. Leras took a chicnk of Ruin's captured power, separated it and tied it to a non-typical Investiture Cycle at the Pits of Hathsin, creating E1 Atium - so that hte power remained stuck in the Physical Realm instead of returning to the Spiritual Realm as it normally should. 

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Lance Alvein (paraphrased)

You've said that "The Pits of Hathsin were crafted by Preservation as a place to hide the chunk of Ruin's body that he had stolen away". How does one Shard steal a portion of another Shard and create a Physical outlet for it, like the Pits were for Ruin's power?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It has to do with clash between the two Shards' power. When pressed, he then said that it was "kind of" like splintering

Hal-Con 2012 (Oct. 30, 2012)

 

Hope that helps

[Denissimo He/him]

Wait, so are the atium geodes a result of Preservation trapping Ruin's poer (or "body", as they call it in the Era1 series) or a result of the presence of Ruin's perpendicularity?

[Treamayne]

53 minutes ago, Denisimo said:

Wait, so are the atium geodes a result of Preservation trapping Ruin's poer (or "body", as they call it in the Era1 series) or a result of the presence of Ruin's perpendicularity?

Yes.

BLUF - The perpendicularity is there because that's where the power is. The power is there, because that's how Leras hid it. The Geodes are there because that was the mechanism used to hide it. The Pit's physical location is there because that's how Rashek moved everything when he changed the continent. 

The way that Preservation "hid" Ruin's power was to put it into a investiture cycle with the pits, where the condensed power of Ruin entered the physical realm in the crystals, combining with Electrum in the Rocks and eventually forming Atium beads inside the Geode. So the "Perpendicularity" is the entire chasm Kelsier crawls down in TFE when he destroyes the Geodes. There is no "Well" (single instance of liquid invesisture) despite the whole are being a Perpendicularity due to the amount of investiture concentrated in that one crack-in-the-ground.

The Cycle was so that burned Atium returned to the Pits to form new beads instead of returning to the Spiritual Realm (as is normal in most Investiture cycles). The fact that it was tainted by Electrum (and therefore not Pure) helped shield it from searches (I think of it like doing a keyword search with the wrong synonym - correct meaning but the wrong word means the search fails to find what is being searched). 

They use the term "body" because it is a solid matter manifestation and they do not yet understand Investiture as Gas (mist), Liquid (Well) and Solid (beads) - though Sazed does mention this in the epigraphs of HoA. 

Hope that helps

[BigBadBagsworth He/him/his]

I always saw it this way: Shards can have their body in solid, liquid or gas forms, but they don’t have to the entire conflict of tHoA was

Spoiler

Ruin trying to find and reabsorb the Atium that made up part of his power,

And preservation had far more of his investiture in matter form than Ruin
So I thought that Ruin’s perpendicularity had always just manifested as to condense solid investiture, rather than liquid investiture. The investiture in the Pits returns after use the same way as the investiture in the Well, but if the lord ruler were to save a large amount up, he could condense investiture away from ruin, with the impurities meaning that Ruin can’t absorb the Atium from anywhere unlike how, in WaT, 

Spoiler

Retribution would be able to absorb all spren, even without knowing where each one was. 

I assume the same thing could be accomplished by spooning liquid out of the well, or jarring mist, although the mist seems to disappear into the spiritual realm at daybreak. I assume the well would refill naturally over 2^10 years, like it normally does, even if the power hasn’t been used. I think we see the same thing happening with purified Dor, although perhaps the purification serves to make it seem to the mindless Dor as if it’s been used.

[Denissimo He/him]

I legitmately fell out of my chair laughing when I imagined someone just using a SPOON to scoop out liquid Lerasium, or whatever the Investiture manifested as in the well of ascension.
Like using a literal ladle to scoop it into a bowl and like adding noodles or something.
In fact, heres a question; what would have happened if Vin DRANK the liquid in the well? (Preferably containing some ramen, eggs, and seasoning).

[Treamayne]

12 hours ago, Denisimo said:

In fact, heres a question; what would have happened if Vin DRANK the liquid in the well?

Keep in mind that investiture has at least five known states in the Physical Realm - they do not all behave the same way. 

1. Investiture as a PR Solid (Atium/Lerasium beads, Shardblades, etc.) - Has specific Physical Realm and allomantic properties
2. Investiture as a PR Liquid (unkeyed Dor, etc.) - Usually versitle to fuel MoIs for which is is Connected (or any MoIs when Unkeyed) and may have other unknown properties
   • 2b - Investiture that appears to be liquid and may express some properties of a liquid - but does not express all properties of Liquids (surface tension, wetness, etc. - The Well, The Lake in Elantris, etc.)
3. Investiture as a PR Gas  - Theoretical, no confirmed examples on screen
   • 3b - Investiture that appears to be gaseous and may express some properties of a Gas - but does not express all properties of Gas (BorChromatic Breath, The Mist, Ruin's Mist in WoA and AoL
   • May be an intermediate shape for investiture entering the PR and undergoing Deposition or Condensation (Shardblades, etc.)

We know Investiture may have a Plasma like state in Shadesmar, and there are energy states in both the PR and CR, but we don't know if invesiture can hold a stable Plasma state in the Physical Realm. Just as the mist appears to be gaseous, but is not Physical Gaseous matter and does not behave like a gas (unaffected by wind or weather - affected by buildings, Allomancy and Hemalurgy); The Well was not in a physical liquid state when Vin found it - it was an investiture state that appears to be liquid in the Physical Realm - but does not display the properties of a liquid and does not behave as a liquid. 

WoA Ch 58:

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She could hear it thumping. As if…calling to her. Calling for her to join with it.

She stepped onto the pool. It resisted her touch, but her foot began to sink, slowly. She stepped forward, moving into the center of the pool, waiting as she sank.

 

It's behaving more like a Coloid and resisting her physcial form because of the taint of Hemalurgy - and noticibly does not make her "wet."

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<snip>

She felt the liquid pressing against her, creeping into her body, crawling, forcing its way through the pores and openings in her skin. She opened her mouth to scream, and it rushed in that way too, choking her, gagging her.

With a sudden flare, her earlobe began to hurt. She cried out, pulling her earring free, dropping it into the depths. She pulled off her sash, letting it—and her Allomantic vials—go as well, removing the only metals on her person.

Then she started to burn. She recognized the sensation: it was exactly like the feeling of burning metals in her stomach, except it came from her entire body.

So she did "swallow" some - and it is the same "burning" she experiences in HoA when the mists vaporize her body as she Ascends.

Hope that helps

Edited June 12, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Denissimo He/him]

23 minutes ago, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that investiture has at least five known states in the Physical Realm - they do not all behave the same way. 

1. Investiture as a PR Solid (Atium/Lerasium beads, Shardblades, etc.) - Has specific Physical Realm and allomantic properties
2. Investiture as a PR Liquid (unkeyed Dor, etc.) - Usually versitle to fuel MoIs for which is is Connected (or any MoIs when Unkeyed) and may have other unknown properties
   • 2b - Investiture that appears to be liquid and may express some properties of a liquid - but does not express all properties of Liquids (surface tension, wetness, etc. - The Well, The Lake in Elantris, etc.)
3. Investiture as a PR Gas  - Theoretical, no confirmed examples on screen
   • 3b - Investiture that appears to be gaseous and may express some properties of a Gas - but oes not express all properties of Gas (BorChromatic Breath, The Mist, Ruin's Mist in WoA and AoL
   • May be an intermediate shape for investiture entering the PR and undergoing Deposition or Condensation (Shardblades, etc.)

We know Investiture may have a Plasma like state in Shadesmar, and there are energy states in both the PR and CR, but we don't know if invesiture can hold a stable Plasma state in the Physical Realm. Just as the mist appears to be gaseous, but is not Physical Gaseous matter and does not behave like a gas (unaffected by wind or weather - affected by buildings, Allomancy and Hemalurgy); The Well was not in a physical liquid state when Vin found it - it was an investiture state that appears to be liquid in the Physical Realm - but does not display the properties of a liquid and does not behave as a liquid. 

WoA Ch 58:

  Hide contents

It's behaving more like a Coloid and resisting her physcial form because of the taint of Hemalurgy - and noticibly does not make her "wet."

So she did "swallow" some - and it is the same "burning" she experiences in HoA when the mists vaporize her body as she Ascends.

Hope that helps

Thank you, that cleared it up for me. Can you, however, season and cook the liquid investiture, adding meat, vegetables, and noodles? 
I legitmately want to know the culinary aspects of the liquid Investiture of Preservation.

[Treamayne]

8 minutes ago, Denisimo said:

Thank you, that cleared it up for me. Can you, however, season and cook the liquid investiture, adding meat, vegetables, and noodles? 
I legitmately want to know the culinary aspects of the liquid Investiture of Preservation.

If you can convert it to a true Physical Liquid state, possibly. As is - it only appears similar to a liquid, but without the physical properties of liquid matter.

[Denissimo He/him]

12 hours ago, Treamayne said:

If you can convert it to a true Physical Liquid state, possibly. As is - it only appears similar to a liquid, but without the physical properties of liquid matter.

So... it appears a liquid, but it isnt a liquid.
I mean, i guess investiture wouldn;t work the same as normal matter.
I'm hoping BS sheds some light on the nature of Investiture (e.g. States, reactivity, properties, Seasoning)

[Treamayne]

On 6/12/2025 at 11:07 PM, Denisimo said:

i guess investiture wouldn;t work the same as normal matter.

RIght. WoBs:

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Kurkistan

If Investiture can neither be created nor destroyed, and Feruchemy is all fueled by the Feruchemist himself, then how do metalminds end up being invested without Feruchemists seeming to suffer any long-term loss of Investiture? If they're not "creating" the energy that's going into the metalminds, then where's it coming from?

Brandon Sanderson

The cosmere takes physics from our universe, and adds additional layers to it. Where we have energy and matter (simplified), the cosmere has additional building blocks that make reality. Investiture is one of these. It IS possible to change matter, to energy, to investiture, and back.

/r/books AMA 2015 (June 5, 2015)

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Edited for length and Relevance

Brandon Sanderson

That's all RAFO's. I'm not answering any of that.

So I did Alloy-era, by the way, as a stop-gap between the epic fantasy and the modern because I wanted something smaller-- The modern trilogy is going to be very thick books, and I wanted something to balance Stormlight while I was doing the first five Stormlight...

So he's asking how I'm going to deal with this whole collision... between science and magic. So there's a-- I don't know if corollary is the right term. Probably not, but there's a version of Clarke's Law which you inverse. And you say "Any sufficiently understood magic is indistinguishable from science". In the cosmere the magic is science. What I would call-- say is science fantasy because we've added to the Laws of Thermodynamics. We have this other thing called Investiture, which is what powers all the magic. Which is the souls of the things they call gods, their substance. And you can change matter or energy into Investiture and back. And so we've got a third circle in the old Laws of Thermodynamics and so because of that it's science fantasy. I would still call this fantasy because science fiction is where they go "We're going to take the Laws of Thermodynamics and try to explain what we can do using them" I'm like "No, we're just going to add to them, right?" But yeah that's where we're going. There will be a collision of that but it's really going to be-- To them it's indistinguishable, once you get far enough along, that it really is science.

Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016)

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Questioner

So when you use an Allomancy metal--I know you had mentioned it once time, like *inaudible*... My question was, when that happens, is the metal like actually gone, or like conservation of...

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's becoming Investiture. Yeah, so... Investiture, energy, and matter are the same thing in the first category of *inaudible*.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

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Questioner

Metal in the Mistborn world, is it renewable somehow? Because when you burn it, it just goes away and then it's converted somehow into energy. Can they run out?

Brandon Sanderson

The way that atium gets back into the system is a bit of a hint... Atium grows out of crystals, and that is being distilled. Let's just say... Investiture is changing into matter as atium is being made.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

So, IRL Matter and Energy are really the same and convert into one another (burning wood converts into ash, heat, and light; for example). In the Cosmere there is a third circle to that venn diagram - Investiture.

Investiture, in the Physical Realm may appear to be similar to energy (e. g. stormlight) or matter (e. g. mist) - but will not display the properties of what it looks like - or - it may actually convert into matter (e. g. Atium beads) or energy (e. g. Aon Daa) which is when it displays properties of what it has become (and usually additional properies as well). 

Hope that helps

Edited June 14, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Argenti he/him]

On 6/12/2025 at 9:59 AM, Treamayne said:

Keep in mind that investiture has at least five known states in the Physical Realm - they do not all behave the same way. 

1. Investiture as a PR Solid (Atium/Lerasium beads, Shardblades, etc.) - Has specific Physical Realm and allomantic properties
2. Investiture as a PR Liquid (unkeyed Dor, etc.) - Usually versitle to fuel MoIs for which is is Connected (or any MoIs when Unkeyed) and may have other unknown properties
   • 2b - Investiture that appears to be liquid and may express some properties of a liquid - but does not express all properties of Liquids (surface tension, wetness, etc. - The Well, The Lake in Elantris, etc.)
3. Investiture as a PR Gas  - Theoretical, no confirmed examples on screen
   • 3b - Investiture that appears to be gaseous and may express some properties of a Gas - but does not express all properties of Gas (BorChromatic Breath, The Mist, Ruin's Mist in WoA and AoL
   • May be an intermediate shape for investiture entering the PR and undergoing Deposition or Condensation (Shardblades, etc.)

We know Investiture may have a Plasma like state in Shadesmar, and there are energy states in both the PR and CR, but we don't know if invesiture can hold a stable Plasma state in the Physical Realm. Just as the mist appears to be gaseous, but is not Physical Gaseous matter and does not behave like a gas (unaffected by wind or weather - affected by buildings, Allomancy and Hemalurgy); The Well was not in a physical liquid state when Vin found it - it was an investiture state that appears to be liquid in the Physical Realm - but does not display the properties of a liquid and does not behave as a liquid. 

WoA Ch 58:

  Reveal hidden contents

It's behaving more like a Coloid and resisting her physcial form because of the taint of Hemalurgy - and noticibly does not make her "wet."

So she did "swallow" some - and it is the same "burning" she experiences in HoA when the mists vaporize her body as she Ascends.

Hope that helps

There's also technically invested light (taldain and like, the actual luminescene of stormlight), but since light is only kinda matter, I don't know if that counts.