ChickenBonanza Posted May 11, 2025 Posted May 11, 2025 (edited) I was about to post the original version of this, but then the tab refreshed and killed me. The first time I write something directly on-site, too. Never again. The first was a clean organization of thoughts, and I struggle to recreate even a pale comparison to it. This is a topic which has consumed my mind for ages. At this point, I just want answers, man. I’ve discussed this before, did not get what others were trying to say, realized what they were saying, agreed with what they say, realized that it doesn’t specifically assuage my doubts, returned to a prior--if updated—way of thinking. I may be too attached to my original thoughts, unable to see a plain truth, biased beyond compare, but I’m trying, bros. (‘This again’, you may be thinking. I’m sorry, but I gotta do it for peace of mind.) To begin, what enables the creation of the Father Machine? It is implied to be created by Command and Investiture that is not Breath, but without Awakening (referring to that which is seen on Nalthis) to enable the creation of Awakened Objects, how does it exist? Spoiler “When you Awaken a device like this, be very, very careful what Commands you give it to follow.” Yumi and the Nightmare Painter, Chapter 39. Spoiler bolded and cut from original Argent So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) Unfortunately, Awakening is the only magic we see on Nalthis. If a second existed, and also used Commands as a Focus, then one could confidently define Awakening as a system arising Shard-Planet interactions. (Of the magic phenomena tied to Nalthis—Breaths, Divine Breaths, Royal Locks, Returned, Awakening, Only Awakening is particularly overt in its usage of Command. Transferring Breaths (and Divine Breath) to others does utilize Command, but it is tough to tie that function to Breaths and Awakening as a system when other Investitures can be directed by Command, as seen on Komashi. The strict inheritance of Royal Locks could be tied to Command, but who knows how that works.) However, there is no separate system on Nalthis to provide an exceedingly clear answer. On Komashi, something eerily familiar to Awakening is seen. Something which copies the core function and Focus of Awakening. Investiture directed by Command to form an Awakened Object. Why is this? Does Komashi possess a mirror-system to Awakening? Does Komashi possess the same planetary Focus as Nalthis? It’s theoretically possible, sure, but redundant and unsatisfying, I feel. While the range of ability in these apparent systems may differ incredibly, like with Lifeless and others, the core function remains the same. Since they share that core function, labeling either as a magic system analogous to the Metallic Arrs becomes doubtful. Any differences in their range and specifics could be attributed instead to relevant Intents. Yes, Awakening can reclaim Breaths, and Breaths are held easy and easily detachable in the soul—facets not seen on Komashi—but how can one be certain that these effects derive from a ‘true’ magic system when the largest, most important facet of that would-be system is shared with another? One which would otherwise have no logical link? Multiple explanations come to mind, I find. First, that there is a magic system on Komashi that enables the manipulation of Investiture with Commands to create Awakened Objects, like there would be on Nalthis. For this to be true, then Komashi must possess the same Focus as Nalthis does: Command. Plausible, if redundant. That is, if Command is indeed Nalthis’ Focus. There is no separate magic on Nalthis to corroborate that Focus, as with on Scadrial and Sel. Breath (and Divine Breaths) are transferred to others using Command, but doesn’t result in Awakening. Something such as the Royal Locks may not involve Command at all, except maybe it’s weird inheritance rules, but that’s neither here nor there, I think. (There is a Word which describes Awakening’s Focus as Command, but can we confidently apply that to Nalthis as a whole, or is it limited to Awakening? I have doubts.) Second, that there is no magic system on Komashi which enables the creation of the Father Machine. Instead, it would be derived from the general Cosmeric principle of utilizing Command to manipulate Investiture. If this option was true, it would imply that the Awakening of objects with Breath would not necessarily be the result of an enabling magic system either. While Awakening does have a grander array of effects we have seen, that does not necessarily mean that the method which created the Father Machine cannot replicate such things. The differences between them could be derived from the separate Investitures and their Intents, just as it could be derived from the specifics of wholly separate magics. God, the original version of this was worded much more elegantly. Alas, how shameful. I suppose that the most appropriate answer to this is that one must take both Awakening and Komashi’s system to be their own systems that follow along the fundamentals of Awakening, just like there exists fundamentals of Lightweaving present in multiple systems. That Awakened Objects can be made by Command without a supporting system is by itself an assumption too egregious to be taken for granted. That both systems share a Focus could, theoretically, not be the case. That instead they follow along their own Focuses to produce a magic of Awakening, with has its own, subfocus. Like Radiant Soulcasting using different crystals to determine the material they can Soulcast into. Edited May 11, 2025 by ChickenBonanza “I suppose…” 2
Treamayne Posted May 12, 2025 Posted May 12, 2025 5 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: To begin, what enables the creation of the Father Machine? It is implied to be created by Command and Investiture that is not Breath, but without Awakening (referring to that which is seen on Nalthis) to enable the creation of Awakened Objects, how does it exist? First, please allow me to address some false assumptions in this section. Investiture minimally used in the creation of Father machine, and we can tell it was not Breath - because in Naltian Awakening, Breath is the power source. Look at the rest of the quote you trunkated - YPN Ch 39: Spoiler Seventeen hundred years before our story started, a machine was activated at the great Torish festival of the spirits. Not the tiny machine you’ve seen; that was a prototype. The real machine was something far greater. Scholars had crafted it to stack stones, attract spirits, and then use them as a power source. They’d miscalculated, however, because the machine saw all souls—not just the spirits that lived beneath the ground—as a viable power source. When first turned on, it was hungry. It needed strength to follow its instructions to stack stones, and it wanted an overwhelming amount of power to jump-start its work. No spirits were available. So it instead reached out and seized the nearest sources it could find: the souls of the people of Torio. Let this be a lesson. When you Awaken a device like this, be very, very careful what Commands you give it to follow. This machine immediately began feeding on them, destroying their bodies and harvesting their Investiture. The result was the shroud, sprayed into the air, left to rain down and blanket the land. A dark miasma literally crafted from the dead, everyone’s Identities evaporated and transformed into this dark force. Imagine it like…the tar that decomposed bodies sometimes turn into over many years of incredible pressure. The shroud is that, except souls, left as refuse from the machine’s initial activation. A soul cannot be destroyed; it can only change forms. The machine, then, didn’t use people up so much as transform them. They lingered as this blackness, a churning soup made of tens of thousands of souls subject to the machine’s domineering will, held in eternal bondage to something they’d created. Delightful, eh? Progress, it is said, always disrupts one industry or another. Well, in Torio, progress took a running leap—and instead of just disrupting industry, decided to disrupt the entire planet. Permanently. Before long, the machine burned through the relatively weak souls of humans and moved on to the spirits themselves. Drawn by the machine’s incredible stacking abilities, the spirits were handily trapped by its power. It eventually gathered each and every remaining free spirit in the land. They finally satiated it, providing a more…vigorous power source. That was its purpose, and the thing fulfilled it with excellence. Unfortunately, there was almost no one left to appreciate it. So, it was Awakened, but lacked the power to fulfill the command - then went and took what power it could find. If BioChromatic Breath had been involved, it would already have the power it needed. Nightblood WoB (Annotation to Warbreaker Ch 58): Spoiler Anyway, a lot of important things happen here. Note that Nightblood doesn’t remember being drawn. When he was created, the Breaths gave him sentience as planned. (That was a big part of the goal in making him—to prove the existence of Type Four BioChromatic entities.) However, once he is drawn, his Command takes force and he acts much more like a regular Awakened object—only one with very strange abilities and powers. During this time, his Breath is diverted to creating the powers, and his mind goes fuzzy. So, the Breath when static is providing Sentience (Sapience-the annotation was before Sanderson began using Sapient correctly) - and Nightblood, when drawn, the Breaths are redirected to fullfilling his Command. This is core Realmatics - that large amounts of Investiture (any source) can become Sapient. Which also means that objects imbued with enough investiture may become Awakened (sentient or sapient) and the source of that investiture is not tied to Endownment or Breaths. However, because of the nature of Endowment's Intent and BioChromatic Breaths - the magic system of Awakening can facilitiate Awakening on much smaller scales (allowing the object to follow Command and Intent, with amounts of investiture below the threshold of Sentience or Sapience. The are separate definitions for separate things: Awakening - a Magic System using BioChromatic Breaths to allow objects to act on a Command (with or without investiture derives Sentience or sapience - usually without as they can only act on thier Command (and the Intent behind that Command) Awakened - an Object with enough investiture to become Sentient or Sapient (Cosmere AI). WoBs: Spoiler Quote Brandon Sanderson Chapter Twenty-One Vasher Awakens His Clothing, Then Leaps off the Palace One of the subtle, yet drastic, changes to Awakening that happened in this story came during the middle drafts. Originally, the Command was part of the process of Awakening—but wasn't as important as I eventually made it. I had intended for very difficult things to be accomplished through the use of very long and intricate Commands. However, as I wrote the first draft, I felt this was bulky. What it meant that was if you wanted to use a powerful Awakening in battle, you'd have to stop and spout several paragraphs of instructions. It really cut down on the tension of the battle sequences. (And Awakening was already slower than I preferred, with the need for all of the steps—Breathing, finding color, then Commanding.) So during revisions, I changed this. Instead of requiring a lengthy Command to create a powerful Awakening, the strength and skill of the Awakener is instead determined by their ability to visualize what they want the Command to do. The Command is a focus, the spoken words an important part of the process, but the real trick is getting the right mental picture. This way, someone can practice a lot, and still use simple Commands—like "grab things"—yet have them do very powerful things. It also allows me to have Commands be easier to learn and use, yet still require skill to master. Warbreaker Annotations (Oct. 19, 2010) Quote Chaos In Dawnshard we learned that Intent and Command are two different things, whereas in Warbreaker Vasher is clearly conflating these two into just saying it's the Command. What's the difference between Intent and Command? Brandon Sanderson Intent encompasses more understanding. Command is specifically narrow. A lot of times, these things are gonna be conflated, because they basically can be. Like, if Vasher creates an awakened thing and says "go get me those keys." The Intent is: "I need the keys to get outta here. I want to be free." The Command is: "Go fetch keys." Those are two different things, but they are working toward the same goal. It is important in cosmere terms that the Intent is understood, even if sometimes the words that can speak 'em are clunky and smaller in scale by nature than the Intent. Let's say the Intent of a Shard encompasses more than the word that the Shard is described by. It's a similar thing that the Intent of a Command is often vaster than the actual words spoken. And the magic can grasp the Intent, not just the Command, depending on the magic system and how good you are at it, and things like that. The words are there to focus Intent. How about that? Chaos Bringing the old word "focus" back into it. Let's talk about body focuses; what's going on there? (That's a joke.) Brandon Sanderson I'll throw you a kernel on that one in the fifth book if you watch for it. That old Rosharan philosophy will actually be relevant for a small thing happening in the fifth book. Shardcast Interview (Jan. 23, 2021) Quote Argent You've said that Investiture tends to develop sapience on its own. Is this a function of the amount of Investiture alone (i.e. any pile of Investiture large enough will develop sapience eventually), or does the process require extra effort (e.g. a Command from an Awakener, an action by a Shard, etc.)? Brandon Sanderson Under the right circumstances, a pile of investiture will eventually become self-aware. But there is no specific timing. The more investiture clumped together, the more likely--and the closer to human-level intelligence it is likely to obtain. Of course, if you leave matter alone long enough (on a galactic scale) it will eventually end up becoming sapient too. So this isn't that different. (Well, okay, it is.) Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 4, 2016) Quote Questioner If someone were to create a human shape, with full articulations, made out of the four Feruchemical Spiritual metals and copper and do like a full dump into them, would it be able to-- I mean, Investiture attains sapience on its own. And then with-- If those were mixed with the memories in the copper would it be able to effectively become an android of the person who created it? Brandon Sanderson So we got a couple of issues you have to overcome in creating this. Number one, the memories are not going to attune to the Investiture itself, they're going to be attuned to you. The Investiture as it attains sapience is gonna create its own Identity, which is then going to be a mismatch for those memories. So you would have to find a way to get those memories to work for that creation. Questioner It wouldn't tie with the Identity that was stored in the aluminum? Brandon Sanderson No, it would not... The other thing you were getting at there though, is that just Investing it alone, you would have to leave it alone for a long time, naturally, for it to start developing anything. And so we're looking at thousands of years, probably. There are ways to speed that process along, but just doing that and leaving it, it's gonna take a while. Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018) Quote PrinceofMagnets What is Cosmere sentience? By this I mean what does it require and what does it entail? Brandon Sanderson In the cosmere, most things are sentient on some level. Basically, anything with even the smallest amount of investiture. (Which is all matter, and most cognitive creations.) Sapience is something different, of course. /r/books AMA 2015 (May 16, 2015) So, we know that in Yumi's time, the "Magic" was mostly about Yoki-Hiju (Splinters) summoning Spirits and asking them to become technology items for the people (the Sapience, Command and Intent came from the Spirits, not the YH). We do not know what, if any, invested arts were available to normal people and we do not know what technology was used to create the Prototype or Father Machine. Did they have parts made from summoned spirits acting as components of the machine? Were they simply mundane technology powered by Spirits that had been converted to Hion? We don't know. We can guess that whatever method was used for FM, it did not have the requisite Investiture - because we saw how it obtained the Investiture it needed to fulfill its Command. We can also guess that the resultant being was not fully Sapient - FM doesn't talk or interact, it only forces souls it has enslaved to operate in manners necessary to continue fulfilling its Command. Much more like Nightblood drawn than Nightblood in his sheath. We can also guess that the Command was not a simply spoken distillation of Intent (such as Awakening uses) - because it is unlikely to have gone so spectaculary wrong if they had known enough to provide an Intent and Command correctly. As the WoB above mentions, the Investiture can extrapolate Intent from Command - so if it was something along the lines of "convert Spirits to Hion," then we can see how it would mangle that (FM couldn't "know" Spirit - just as Nightblood does not really know "evil"), just as Hoid says it considerd all Souls the same type of power source. I'm sorry if that does not really answer your question - because there are too many unknowns to say specifically "Torians did X, Y and Z to create Father Machine with Command "A" - and this happened." But we have also seen "Awakened" objects in other places where "Awakening" was not a part of their creation (TLM, TSM). Hope that helps 1
ChickenBonanza Posted May 12, 2025 Author Posted May 12, 2025 (edited) 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: false assumptions …i’ve really been killing myself over nothing, haven’t i? danke 3 hours ago, Treamayne said: Variations will have differences, but they are all based on the same Relmatic Principals - so the final "product" can be comparable (in a way). Like, for here, the monkey brain activates and assumes that the Father Machine’s status must be very much comparable to Nalthis’ Awakening. With things like ‘Command’ meaning ‘spoken instructions.’ 5 hours ago, Treamayne said: So, it was Awakened, but lacked the power to fulfill the command - then went and took what power it could find. If BioChromatic Breath had been involved, it would already have the power it needed. Though, theoretically, if they had instead provided a significant amount of Investiture to the Father Machine’s creation (as opposed to the bare minimum-sentience achieving amount they used), it could’ve started with the ability to power itself/fulfill its Command from the start. Like, the Father Machine we see started at (comparative) drab-level, whereas something like Nightblood started at (comparative) Returned-level. I am uncertain on the ability for non-Breath Investitures to form permanent souls in Awakened Objects. Like, a Commanded Breath creates a demi-permanent fixture in an object, whereupon it can act out its Command for a significant amount of time. More Breath to start with, the grander magical effects that soul can wield (1000 Breath Nightblood v. 1 Breath doll). For the Father Machine, however, such a thing may not occur. Their method could still have only granted the bare-minimum sentience with no extra effects, with a loose supply of fuel attached to it. Edited May 12, 2025 by ChickenBonanza “Though, theoretically…” 1
Treamayne Posted May 12, 2025 Posted May 12, 2025 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said: …i’ve really been killing myself over nothing, haven’t i? danke Well, it is a lot to wrap around, and we don't yet have full explanations, just many many implications. Such as WoBs: Spoiler Quote Questioner Could you use AonDor to manipulate Connection? If so, would a real AonDor smarty be able to do something similar to a Bondsmith? Brandon Sanderson The short answer to your question is: yes. Let me give some explanation. Even when you are seeings some things happening in Elantris itself, you are seeing them manipulate Connection. It is mostly reinforcing Connection, but it is, in a way, manipulation. Rewriting Connection, rewriting Identity are both things that they can do. So with enough power, with enough smartiness, what a Bondsmith can do can be done. In fact, we have seen short-range Elsecalling done by… Obviously Elsecalling’s not Bondsmithing, but you know that a Bondsmith powered a big Elsecalling [to migrate from Ashyn], one of the big things you’ve seen a Bondsmith do is get people between planets. And you have seen people use AonDor to Elsecall. You’ve seen them Lightweave, you’ve seen them do a lot of these things. They also could do some of this same stuff. Basically, rule of thumb is: almost anything in the cosmere that is possible can be replicated with AonDor with the right program. But you may need an injection of Investiture in certain ways. Dragonsteel 2022 (Nov. 14, 2022) Or, like the WoB you partially posted: Quote Argent Staying with Yumi, since we're asking the big questions here. I want to talk about the big machine, the father machine. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There are some really interesting what feel like intentional parallels between it and Nightblood. Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent There's smoke involved, there's eating of souls, there's a whole bunch of things. So what I do want to ask is: one, was the father machine Awakened using Breaths, using Nalthian Awakening? Or are you using Awakening as Lightweaving or Bondsmithing which is an overarching system in the Cosmere? Brandon Sanderson It's the second. This wouldn't exist in the pre-space-age as much; by space age there's a certain terminology that is going between... basically it's starting with the arcanists and moving to the general population. What certain themes in the Cosmere magics mean. And so when Hoid says "this is an Awakened machine" his audience understands what that means. It does not necessarily mean Breaths Awaken, but Breaths are one of the main ways that people see things be Awakened. You should be noticing those parallels, but that's a term that in the Cosmere is becoming genericized to mean un-living object being given some measure of sentience and even sapience by application of Investiture, Commands, and these sorts of things. By this point they've all interacted with various Awakened machines of sorts in the future Cosmere. They know what this means. They've talked to an Awakened computer. Argent Interesting! Very interesting! That's what I was hoping you would answer. Because Awakening is such a cool term for Awakening an object, right! One notable difference between the father machine and Nightblood other than them using different magic systems to be Awakened is that the Machine was able to somehow draw people's souls at a distance, which seems EXTREMELY broken to me. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. I had to let... This is going to be a pretty special circumstance for this book. But yes. It is pretty broken. You wouldn't want this to be... this could be very dangerous in the wrong hands. Don't expect this to be very commonly used in the Cosmere. Argent Was that a side effect of the magic system that was used to Awaken the machine, or was there something else going on? Brandon Sanderson This is a side effect of what Virtuosity did and the bit of Virtuosity in all the people allowing the Machine to have enough of a plausible Connection to them to draw upon them. Argent Ok. Interesting. I will think about this while I pass the ball back to Matt. Brandon Sanderson Yeah. This is me pushing just a little bit hard on the boundaries of what is possible. It is possible, but it it is pushing further than I normally would on the bounds of what that can do. Shardcast Interview (July 30, 2023) So, Lightweaving is creating an illusion, and it does not matter if it is Yolish Lightweaving (WoK Wandersail Story), AonDor Lightweaving (Raoden's Kaloo disguise), Rosharan Lightweaving (Shallan), etc. Some terms will simply imply an effect, regardless of the method used to get to that effect. Elsecalling, Awakened, Lightweaving, Midnight Essence, etc. will all be terms that can be used to describe an effect without necessarily implying the method or magic that created the effect. Variations will have differences, but they are all based on the same Realmatic Principals - so the final "product" can be comparable (in a way). Edited May 12, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG
ChickenBonanza Posted May 26, 2025 Author Posted May 26, 2025 On 5/11/2025 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said: If BioChromatic Breath had been involved, it would already have the power it needed. Apologies for the late reply, but this has been something which has bothered me. I feel there is nothing which inherently causes Breath to power whatever Command it is given. Imagine someone attempting to use one Breath to perform some exotic or energy-demanding Command. Perhaps something like Nightblood’s cutting on all three realms. Anything which would require a tremendous amount of power. Maybe attempting to Awaken something huge with the Command ‘Move.’ That single Breath would most likely not be able to fulfill such a demanding Command on its own, right? Yet, checking the Coppermind, I cannot find mention of Commands failing due to lack of power, only due to incomplete Commands. I am thinking that it is wrong to attribute the Father Machine’s lack of starting power to the type of Investiture used in its creation. If they used the equivalent of 1000 BEUs, then it could do a lot before needing more power. Like, if those scholars instead made a doll with the Command to ‘Walk’, then I believe it would have worked just fine. I think your answer to this would be ‘Breath is the only power seen to do so,’ or ‘Breath is the only power seen to exert a physical force through an Awakened object directly.’ You’ve mentioned before to me that a statue Awakened with non-Breath Investiture wouldn’t be able to move like an object infused with Breath could. To me, exerting a physical force on its container, acting as muscles and bones, is not something that seems inherent to the ability of Breath. That is all it is, though, a belief. On 5/11/2025 at 10:05 PM, Treamayne said: Awakening - a Magic System using BioChromatic Breaths to allow objects to act on a Command (with or without investiture derives Sentience or sapience - usually without as they can only act on thier Command (and the Intent behind that Command) Awakened - an Object with enough investiture to become Sentient or Sapient (Cosmere AI). I also have issues with this specific definition, but these are entirely semantic, I think. There’s the idea that Awakened is becoming a generalized term, so why not apply it to ‘Awakening’ (referring to using Breaths)? The verb ‘Awaken’ is applied to non-Breath, why not ‘Awakening?’ (The answer to this is, ‘this is not how it has been used in-world,’ which is fair. I just feel like it’s current use is unsatisfactory.) I find myself to have issues with ‘Awakening’ (the Art using Breath) as a term, anyway. Creating Awakened objects is not all Breath does. Breath can store memories and Breath can be given to others (both by spoken-word Command, as a Focus). To create an Awakened object is but a subset of what Breath can do, albeit it is an absolutely huge subset that represents most of what Breath is used for. This is all my opinion, but I think it would be more appropriate to call this magic system of using Breath something else, like maybe ‘Biochromatics’, and have the term ‘Awakening’ be used to represent when Breath is used to create an Awakened object, and thereafter be used as a generic term to represent the phenomenon of creating sentient Invested object directed by Command. (Like what those scholars did on Komashi.) Like, your definition above fits perfectly, but it would be attributed to ‘Biochromatic Awakening’. Like how ‘Lightweaving’ does not describe in full the abilities of a Surgebinder of the Radiant Order of Lightweavers, but a specific application of their powers to manipulate light/sound waves to create illusions, in line with a phenomenon seen in other Invested Arts like Yolish Lightweaving. 1
Treamayne Posted May 26, 2025 Posted May 26, 2025 (edited) 55 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said: That single Breath would most likely not be able to fulfill such a demanding Command on its own, right? Yet, checking the Coppermind, I cannot find mention of Commands failing due to lack of power, only due to incomplete Commands. That sounds like you are basing your idea on a false assumption. The Awakener doesn't decide how many breaths to use - they Invoke the Breath, make the Command - and the required number of Breaths leave them. If they don't have enough to power the command, then simply nothing happens. Warbreaker: Spoiler Prologue: Quote Vasher had around fifty Breaths, just enough to reach the first Heightening. Having so few made him feel poor compared with what he’d once held, but many would consider fifty Breaths to be a great treasure. Unfortunately, even Awakening a small figure made from organic material—using a piece of his own body as a focus—drained away some half of his Breaths. The little straw figure jerked, sucking in the Breath. Ch 5: Quote Vasher turned away from the court, wrapping his sandaled foot around one of the banners that ran down the outside of the wall. Then he released his Breath. “Lower me,” he Commanded. The large tapestry—woven from wool threads—sucked hundreds of Breaths from him. It hadn’t the form of a man, and it was massive in size, but Vasher now had enough Breath to spend in such extravagant Awakenings. The tapestry twisted, a thing alive, and formed a hand, which picked Vasher up. As always, the Awakening tried to imitate the form of a human—looking closely at the twistings and undulations of the fabric, Vasher could see outlines of muscles and even veins. There was no need for them; the Breath animated the fabric, and no muscles were necessary for it to move. Ch 46: Quote “Hold that branch,” she Commanded. Again, Breath left her. More of it this time. Her trousers drained of color, and the rope end twisted, wrapping around the branch. The rest of it remained still. She smiled in satisfaction. So the more complicated the Command, the more Breath it requires. <snip> “Hold things that I tell you to hold,” she Commanded. Nothing happened. “Hold that branch when I tell you.” Again, nothing. “Hold whatever I say.” Nothing. Annotation to Ch 33: Quote However, the more the Lifeless is damaged, the less like the shape of a living person it is, and the more difficult it is for the Breath to keep that body going. Powering a body with only one Breath is hard—it requires the body to work mostly on its own. When you power a cloak or something like that, the Breaths need to provide a lot of energy, since there’s no real muscles to use or skeletal structure to rely on. Annotation to Ch 37: Quote What she would need to do is Awaken something with a one-Breath Command. There are some. They don’t do much, but you can Awaken a very tiny scrap of cloth tied into the shape of a person with a very simple Command. That takes one Breath. Edited @ChickenBonanza 55 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said: There’s the idea that Awakened is becoming a generalized term, <snip> ‘Biochromatic Awakening’. That may be the case as we move into the future of the Cosmere. Recall that all of these terms are in-world, based on their current understanding at the time. Hoid even points out (WB Ch 32): Spoiler The workings of the souls of men—their power to animate ordinary objects and the dead to life—is something discovered barely four centuries ago. Ad we also so that the Scientific Terms (as oppsoed to common parlance) used by one of the Five Scholars, was very short on using the term "Awakening". WB Ch 46: Spoiler Quote “Well, I think we should start with theory,” he said. “There are four kinds of BioChromatic entities. The first, and most spectacular, are the Returned. They’re called gods here in Hallandren, but I’d rather call them Spontaneous Sentient BioChromatic Manifestations in a Deceased Host. What is odd about them is that they’re the only naturally occurring BioChromatic entity, which is theoretically the explanation for why they can’t use or bestow their BioChromatic Investiture. Of course, the fact is that every living being is born with a certain BioChromatic Investiture. This could also explain why Type Ones retain sentience.” Vivenna blinked. That wasn’t what she had been expecting. “You’re more interested in Type Two and Type Three entities,” Vasher continued. “Type Two being Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host. They are cheap to make, even with awkward Commands. This is per the Law of BioChromatic Parallelism: the closer a host is to a living shape and form, the easier it is to Awaken. BioChroma is the power of life, and so it seeks patterns of life. That, however, leads us to another law—the Law of Comparability. It states that the amount of Breath required to Awaken something isn’t necessarily indicative of its power once Awakened. A piece of cloth cut into a square and a piece of cloth cut into the shape of a person will take very different amounts of Breath to Awaken, but will be essentially the same once they have been Invested. “The explanation for this is simple. Some people think of Awakening as pouring water into a cup. You pour until the cup is filled, and then the object comes to life. This is a false analogy. Instead, think of Awakening as beating down a door. You pound and pound, and some doors are easier to open than others, but once they’re open, they do about the same thing.” <snip> “Creating Type Three BioChromatic entities is what we traditionally call ‘Awakening,’ ” Vasher continued. “That’s when you create a BioChromatic manifestation in an organic host that is far removed from having been alive. Cloth works the best, though sticks, reeds, and other plant matter can be used.” Annotatoins to Ch 46: Quote Vasher Explains the Different Kinds of BioChromatic Entities This is a scene I’d been waiting to write for almost the entire book. Not just because I wanted to get into the scientific rules for Awakening, but because I wanted to pull a good reversal for Vasher. When he begins talking like this, I hope that the reader responds like Vivenna: Who is this guy? A lot of readers, my editor included, resisted the term BioChroma. They wanted me to simply use Breath, as they thought BioChroma was just too scientific sounding. I like this concept, however. I want people to read the book and think it sounds scientific. My novels, my magic systems, have a kind of “hard magic” sense to them. I want there to be an edge of science to them, a feeling that people are studying them and trying to learn about them using the scientific method. Vasher’s explanations here are dead on. He’s got a lot of good information, and he has a handle on what he doesn’t understand. That alone should be a big clue about who he is. The fact that he never has to trim his beard is another one. Origin of Awakening as a Magic System I never did write out in annotation form an explanation of where Awakening came from. I believe I talked about the origin of the term Awakening, but never the actual powers of the magic. As I’ve said, I wanted to do something that had a very “vulgar magic” feel to it. Something gritty, dealing with the forms of people, like voodoo or hedge magics. I wanted to have something that reached back into our cultural unconscious, and something that dealt with necromancy in a new way. Those are all pieces of the puzzle. Another piece, however, was the desire to do an animation magic—a magic focused around bringing inanimate objects to life on order to serve you. As I’ve said, it’s very tough to come up with completely new powers nobody has written about or used (though I think I’ve got a few in store for Way of Kings). However, a good magic system can be crafted from the interpretation of old powers used in new ways with interesting limitations and cultural connections. I’ve seen people bring objects to life in books or movies, but I’ve never seen a formal magic designed completely around it. One of the other things I’m always looking for is new ways for people to gain their magical powers. As much as I like Mistborn, the “It’s genetic and you’re born with it” method of gaining magical abilities is just about the oldest and most commonly used way. It’s used so much because it makes sense, and because it’s easy to explain. Breath, and the transferring of it, came from my desire to come up with something different—something that had an economic component, something that allowed anyone to become a magic user, but which still had limited resources so that not everyone could be one. I’m still trying to innovate in this area, but I think my favorite part about Awakening is the concept of Breath and how it’s transferred. It turns people into resources for the magic, but in a way I hadn’t seen done before. Hope that helps Edited May 26, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG/Add Second Quote
ChickenBonanza Posted May 26, 2025 Author Posted May 26, 2025 (edited) 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: That sounds like you are basing your idea on a false assumption. The Awakener doesn't decide how many breaths to use - they Invoke the Breath, make the Command - and the required number of Breaths leave them. I don’t mean attempting to use one Breath when you have many, I mean attempting to use your one and only Breath to perform something drastic. 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: If they don't have enough to power the command, then simply nothing happens. 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: “Hold things that I tell you to hold,” she Commanded. Nothing happened. “Hold that branch when I tell you.” Again, nothing. “Hold whatever I say.” Nothing. This is what I was looking for. Breath not responding to Command when that Command would require more Breath to form a pseudo-soul which can properly obey that Command. …I forget how this relates to the Father Machine. Perhaps… That the Investiture intelligence inside the Father Machine activated because it had enough power to interpret its Command in such a way that it could operate the machine it inhabited. (I’m thinking that a similar situation could occur with Breath. That the Breath forms the mind which drives the machine, but not such that its Investiture inhabits the whole of the machine. The issue with this is that imbuing Breath into an object is affected by the whole of the object. We don’t know precisely the mechanics or method behind the Father Machine’s creation, so this is all useless supposition anyway.) But, to power the machine itself, it utilized outside Investiture. There’s nothing to suggest that what the Scholars did could make something like a walking doll, but nothing that they couldn’t, either. (Unless there is and I am an idiot.) I suppose it’s unfair for me to posit such and beg definite answers. 2 hours ago, Treamayne said: That may be the case as we move into the future of the Cosmere. Recall that all of these terms are in-world, based on their current understanding at the time. Hoid even points out (WB Ch 32): -cut hidden text- Ad we also so that the Scientific Terms (as oppsoed to common parlance) used by one of the Five Scholars, was very short on using the term "Awakening". WB Ch 46: Huzzah, textual evidence! We love it when we arrive at something the book spells out. I even think that such a style of definition would support the spread of the term ‘Awakening.’ If one creates a sentient manifestation in an object, such that it resembles a Type III entity, without using Breath, the fact that one did not use Breath would be the only reason one could not apply the Awakening term. (Semantics, but I feel that to it is very important to describe ‘Awakening’ as a magic not independent from, but a part of the system that comprises manipulation of Breath. Like, saying ‘Awakening is a magic system that…’ would be wrong. Instead it would be, ‘Awakening is a function of [insert appropriate Nalthian magic system name here]’. That’s neither here nor there, though.) danke Edited May 26, 2025 by ChickenBonanza “Huzzah, textual evidence!” 1
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