Cause of Roshar's Time Dilation, and Honor's Future

[Lord Stormer]

After 41 days reading and painstaking note taking, Wind and Truth is done. This is my very first dive into theory crafting, so please forgive if I express some things wrong.

Roshar's Time Dilation

So, Honor + Odium --> Retribution + a strange effect of time dilation over Roshar

Time goes around 7 - 8x faster than the rest of the Cosmere (Thaidakar, Ch. 147 p. 1320), and this effect will last around 10 Rosharan years.

My first impression was this is merely a plot device to align the rest of the Cosmere to Roshar, basically foreshadowing Roshar's involvement in the greater Cosmere. That may imply the current cast of characters will play a part. But we know Brandon doesn't write that simple, though.

When Dalinar forfeited Honor and ended the old contract, the immediate reaction was ridicule (Taravangian, Ch. 143; Hoid, Ch. 146). Even Honor "radiated betrayal and confusion" (Ch. 143). That changed quickly, when Hoid realizing how good Dalinar's idea was (Epilogue, p. 1325).

Dalinar demanded Honor to change, clearly stated here.

Quote

You understood me! it cried.

Better than you think, Dalinar returned. There are still lessons to learn, stories to tell, but you cannot learn them with me. For you are not Honor. Not yet. Honor is much more than an oath kept.

Learn, see, and remember me, Dalinar told it. Ask yourself why.

Chapter 143, p. 1283

He wanted to buy time. He said after forfeiting the Shard:

But I can buy you time. For Odium is about to have his attention entirely consumed by a greater problem. (Ch. 143, p. 1284)

So how can you buy time when the power had left you? The Shard of Honor was without a vessel for 2,000 years (Interlude 16, p. 976), and it was becoming self-conscious. Becoming alive. Honor, at Dalinar's last moments, finally understood his plan where nobody expected it.

In fact, Dalinar demanded Honor to merge.

Quote

 

Dalinar held his breath. There was a lesson taught in the game towers, once you started to think you were strong enough...

The power paused, and looked toward Dalinar.

Go. Dalinar said. Watch. Learn.

The power accepted Taravangian at Dalinar's urging.

Chapter 143, p. 1284

When Shards interacted, their intentions determined the effects. 7,550 years ago, Tanavast, provoked, clashed with Rayse with mighty rage. Both intended destruction. The land became the Shattered Plains, and anti-Light was created (Ch. 120, p. 1098). I'd say Dalinar wanted Honor to warp time when merging - thus fulfilling his plan. Buy time, but in a different way. As time slows to a near halt at Roshar, Taravangian's plans to build a new army of Fused and Unmade were no longer feasible.

With Tanavast's old contract broken, Retribution was pitted into a very uncomfortable position. He went into hiding (Epilogue, p. 1325), desperate to divert other Shards to Scadrial (Ch. 145, p. 1297), and mulling to install a regent of Roshar (Ch. 145, p.1297). Taravangian resented how he fell into Dalinar's trap and being robbed centuries of time (Ch. 145, p. 1298).

Honor's Future in Retribution

I'm very interested about Honor's half of Retribution. Taravangian now owns two Shards, but Honor is sentient, more alive than Odium. Dalinar had earned a personal connection with Honor, and he demanded the Shard to grow its personality. That Dalinar commanded it to merge left me speculating that Honor should remain alive under the new Vessel.

Does it remind you of Syl, how much she'd changed from The Way of Kings?

* Edit (18/4/25)

I've conceded my theory about time dilation. @Treamayne's answer should be conclusive.

13 hours ago, Treamayne said:

Two quick notes:

1 - We have a WoB on one guaranteed method of causing time dilation in the Cosmere (and it pre-dates WaT by years):

  Reveal hidden contents

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Taravangian, being the foolish new Vessel he is, basically just went hog-wild ripping apart things in the Physcial and Cognitive Realms (Stormfather, Highstorm, Spren, etc.) to make his brand-new-spanking "I'm only doing this because someone must. . . now everybody worship me" storm. In short - way too much investiture pooled into the Cognitive and Physical at one time - hence Time Dilation (as per WoB and what's been going on with Sel for a long long time).

 

2 - We have no proof that Sazed did not cause Time Dilation in the remaking of Scadrial - we have only Sazed's "Spiritual Realm" PoV, Kelsier's Cognitive Realm PoV (that's all shades of messed up - like a montage of a cross country stroll). Otherwise, we know Spook woke up healed - and they emerged into what was to become Elendel Basin, and that subjectively was hours-to-days for the Scadrians (the part about Breeze working at the desk implies days, but there is no actual verification of time).

So, we do not know if those changes on Scadrial were compressed and outside of the Scadrian System, it may have been weeks, months or years for the rest of the Cosmere as Sazed remade the planet.

Edited April 18, 2025 by Lord Stormer

[alder24]

2 hours ago, Lord Stormer said:

I'd say Dalinar wanted Honor to warp time when merging - thus fulfilling his plan.

At least according to Taravangian, time dilation was caused by the death of the Highstorm and the birth of the True Everstorm, not by the merger of Shards, not by Honor. WaT ch 145:

Quote

He had other work to do. The highstorm was consumed by the Everstorm at his will, creating a ripple through nature—one he reveled in, causing the passage of time to warp around this world. He had won. Only his Light would be available to Roshar. Only his storm would make them bow down.
[...]
The death of the highstorm, and the birth of the true Everstorm, continued to warp the spiritual aspect of Roshar. It was distorting everything, fueled by Retribution’s rage. Dalinar … Dalinar had done this. As the storms finally stilled—control reasserted, his anger managed—Taravangian formed an avatar to confront Dalinar.

[Lord Stormer]

2 hours ago, alder24 said:

At least according to Taravangian, time dilation was caused by the death of the Highstorm and the birth of the True Everstorm, not by the merger of Shards, not by Honor.

I see. When writing my thread I've relied on this paragraph in Chapter 147, p. 1312. To compare:

Quote

Months? When Shards died, combined, or otherwise distorted, strange events could follow. Harmony's creation had involved the remaking of a world, while Ambition's death had destroyed several. The formation of Retribution... caused time dilation?

I would be wondering. If Intent is involved, there's no way it's from Taravangian - for reasons I've stated in my OP. Retribution's rage simply amplified the distortion.

Edited April 17, 2025 by Lord Stormer

[SpartanBrigade He/Him]

3 hours ago, Lord Stormer said:

Months? When Shards died, combined, or otherwise distorted, strange events could follow. Harmony's creation had involved the remaking of a world, while Ambition's death had destroyed several. The formation of Retribution... caused time dilation?

This always felt like a weird bit to me because of the Harmony thing. The Shards combining didn't make a new world. I mean it did but it wasn't a result of the combining itself. it was Sazed using the powers on purpose, the remaking of the world was intentional and separate.

[ParaTulip fae/faer (declines as she/her)]

2 hours ago, Lord Stormer said:

I would be wondering. If Intent is involved, there's no way it's from Taravangian - for reasons I've stated in my OP. Retribution's rage simply amplified the distortion.

Could be a mix of the Intent of the guy giving up Honor and the guy picking it up and merging it with Odium.

Taravangian effectively has something like a Black Domain as described in Liu Cixin's Death's End; his home territory is one where it is costly in terms of time for an enemy to enter and leave. I could imagine him enacting something similar on worlds he has conquered on purpose, since it ensures that any major insurgency or rebellion will be delayed and any foreign attack will be bogged down by time itself. Sure, they can prepare their defenses more effectively and he won't get as many resources out of new conquests, but he's worse at the stone cold killer routine than Jasnah who is worse than Shallan; he's third rate at best.

This lines up with one of his dirty little secrets: He didn't sacrifice Kharbranth like he wants Cultivation and presumably all of his other enemies to think. He talks a big game about being willing to relentlessly pursue aggression, but the thing that gives him the flames of passion that he needs to keep Odium fed is his reaction to the loss of life. Simply put, he is loss adverse. He seemingly favors defensive strategies over offensive ones, just as a matter of personality.

It might be that, were Taravangian a different person, the time distortion might have worked the other way around: Giving time to the people of Roshar before they had to encounter the larger Cosmere. Giving the Honor-Child time to observe how Taravangian treats his subjects over multiple generations instead of half of one. Dalinar was kinda winging things at the end there. It seems like the only thing he really had going on for a certainty was "Well, I bet this Honor-Child business will mess up whatever Taravangian is planning. That or some other Shard will show up and deal with this mess, because I messed up by following a dead fool's barely thought out plan."

[Treamayne]

5 hours ago, Lord Stormer said:

I see. When writing my thread I've relied on this paragraph in Chapter 147, p. 1312. To compare:

Spoiler

Months? When Shards died, combined, or otherwise distorted, strange events could follow. Harmony's creation had involved the remaking of a world, while Ambition's death had destroyed several. The formation of Retribution... caused time dilation?

I would be wondering. If Intent is involved, there's no way it's from Taravangian - for reasons I've stated in my OP. Retribution's rage simply amplified the distortion.

Two quick notes:

1 - We have a WoB on one guaranteed method of causing time dilation in the Cosmere (and it pre-dates WaT by years):

Spoiler

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

Taravangian, being the foolish new Vessel he is, basically just went hog-wild ripping apart things in the Physcial and Cognitive Realms (Stormfather, Highstorm, Spren, etc.) to make his brand-new-spanking "I'm only doing this because someone must. . . now everybody worship me" storm. In short - way too much investiture pooled into the Cognitive and Physical at one time - hence Time Dilation (as per WoB and what's been going on with Sel for a long long time).

 

2 - We have no proof that Sazed did not cause Time Dilation in the remaking of Scadrial - we have only Sazed's "Spiritual Realm" PoV, Kelsier's Cognitive Realm PoV (that's all shades of messed up - like a montage of a cross country stroll). Otherwise, we know Spook woke up healed - and they emerged into what was to become Elendel Basin, and that subjectively was hours-to-days for the Scadrians (the part about Breeze working at the desk implies days, but there is no actual verification of time).

So, we do not know if those changes on Scadrial were compressed and outside of the Scadrian System, it may have been weeks, months or years for the rest of the Cosmere as Sazed remade the planet. 

Edited April 17, 2025 by Treamayne
SPAG

[Terrisman]

3 hours ago, Treamayne said:

(as per WoB and what's been going on with Sel for a long long time).

Time dilation on Sel?

[Treamayne]

3 minutes ago, Terrisman said:

Time dilation on Sel?

It was indirect WoBs that basically put a huge flaming Exclamation point over the fact that Elantris' Chronology doesn't fit well - there are two whole Shards' worth of investiture sitting in the Cognitive realm where it does not belong. 

Meanwhile - Elantris is supposed to be at-least centuries before Mistborn The Final Empire, yet the Ire in Secret History appear to be like Reod Elantrians (but most Ire were off-World during the Reod).

WoBs:

Spoiler

Quote

Questioner

Is all the worlds in the Cosmere on a linear timeline?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, with an asterisk. There is time dilation. If you get too close to large amounts of matter or large amounts of Investiture, you will have time dilation. 

Starsight Release Party (Nov. 26, 2019)

Quote

Jeremy

If vast amounts of Investiture can distort time in a similar manner as a black hole, [...] does that include Shards? Would time dilation be greater on Roshar than on Nalthis?

Brandon Sanderson

No, because the Shard is contained almost entirely in the Spiritual Realm. In the Spiritual Realm, time and distance have no meaning. So, what this means is: Large piles of Investiture that somehow make it into the Cognitive Realm or the Physical Realm are going to cause time dilation, but the Spiritual Realm—where it belongs—it's not going to do that.

That's gonna make some exclamation points raise above the heads of some people.

The Dusty Wheel Show (June 17, 2021)

 

Brandon has said that he will not canonize if/how much time dilation is happeneing on Sel because of the Dor until he finishes Elantris 2 and 3 - but it is heavily implied that the whole planet runs slower than Cosmere Standard because of this effect.

Spoiler

Argent

We've always understood Elantris to be one of the earliest books in the Cosmere, but we see Kaise as Codenames in The Lost Metal, one of the latest books. Has the timeline contracted significantly, or are we just looking at the typical Shadesmar time dilation tricks?

Brandon Sanderson

So, here's thing, Argent. I'm not going to be able to give you strict timelines until I write Elantris 2 and 3. So my plan, originally, which might have been a bad plan, was Elantris 2 to take place some ten or fifteen years after Elantris 1. Maybe a little less than that. But years have passed. It was called Dakhor, in my notes. And then for 3 to be hundreds of years later. I don't know if that's the right move anymore, and if 3 isn't hundreds of years later, then where we slot Elantris in is going to change because of where I need certain characters to be in some of these things, and certain things to happen. We are getting really close to where this is going to be nailed down and locked down, and I'll get locked down. Probably right when we start Era 3 is when all of this is just gonna start... I've promised you guys a timeline. Once we've released that, we don't want to retcon it, does that make sense? So that's why we're waiting to release it.

But Kaise does have some time dilation going on, though. Though I say her name wrong because I'm not from Sel. But yeah, she has time dilation going on, she is... yeah. More time has passed than the ten or so years that... she's like what, 7 in Elantris? And she's like young 20s now, visibly, the age that she appears. I believe, something like that. So yeah, there you go. There's some information for you on that. I'm playing loose and free with this until I really get down to writing these. My loose plan is still write Mistborn Era 3 book 1, Elantris 2, Era 3 book 2, Elantris 3, Era 3 book 3. Five years of writing there that I can't even really think about until I've got Stormlight 5 in Tor's hands, if not your hands.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Hope that helps

[Terrisman]

2 hours ago, Treamayne said:

It was indirect WoBs that basically put a huge flaming Exclamation point over the fact that Elantris' Chronology doesn't fit well - there are two whole Shards' worth of investiture sitting in the Cognitive realm where it does not belong. 

Meanwhile - Elantris is supposed to be at-least centuries before Mistborn The Final Empire, yet the Ire in Secret History appear to be like Reod Elantrians (but most Ire were off-World during the Reod).

WoBs:

  Hide contents

 

Brandon has said that he will not canonize if/how much time dilation is happeneing on Sel because of the Dor until he finishes Elantris 2 and 3 - but it is heavily implied that the whole planet runs slower than Cosmere Standard because of this effect.

  Hide contents

Argent

We've always understood Elantris to be one of the earliest books in the Cosmere, but we see Kaise as Codenames in The Lost Metal, one of the latest books. Has the timeline contracted significantly, or are we just looking at the typical Shadesmar time dilation tricks?

Brandon Sanderson

So, here's thing, Argent. I'm not going to be able to give you strict timelines until I write Elantris 2 and 3. So my plan, originally, which might have been a bad plan, was Elantris 2 to take place some ten or fifteen years after Elantris 1. Maybe a little less than that. But years have passed. It was called Dakhor, in my notes. And then for 3 to be hundreds of years later. I don't know if that's the right move anymore, and if 3 isn't hundreds of years later, then where we slot Elantris in is going to change because of where I need certain characters to be in some of these things, and certain things to happen. We are getting really close to where this is going to be nailed down and locked down, and I'll get locked down. Probably right when we start Era 3 is when all of this is just gonna start... I've promised you guys a timeline. Once we've released that, we don't want to retcon it, does that make sense? So that's why we're waiting to release it.

But Kaise does have some time dilation going on, though. Though I say her name wrong because I'm not from Sel. But yeah, she has time dilation going on, she is... yeah. More time has passed than the ten or so years that... she's like what, 7 in Elantris? And she's like young 20s now, visibly, the age that she appears. I believe, something like that. So yeah, there you go. There's some information for you on that. I'm playing loose and free with this until I really get down to writing these. My loose plan is still write Mistborn Era 3 book 1, Elantris 2, Era 3 book 2, Elantris 3, Era 3 book 3. Five years of writing there that I can't even really think about until I've got Stormlight 5 in Tor's hands, if not your hands.

YouTube Spoiler Stream 5 (Dec. 2, 2022)

Hope that helps

Thanks. Yeah it does help! 

[QuantumAce]

18 hours ago, SpartanBrigade said:

22 hours ago, Lord Stormer said:

Months? When Shards died, combined, or otherwise distorted, strange events could follow. Harmony's creation had involved the remaking of a world, while Ambition's death had destroyed several. The formation of Retribution... caused time dilation?

This always felt like a weird bit to me because of the Harmony thing. The Shards combining didn't make a new world. I mean it did but it wasn't a result of the combining itself. it was Sazed using the powers on purpose, the remaking of the world was intentional and separate.

It does not say the remaking of a world was a direct result of shards combining. It states Harmony's creation involved remaking a world, which is a strange event. I read that as major shardic changes can cause a variety of possible outcomes. It is not a stable process with predictable results. Enormous amount of investiture are being transferred and interacting with a new vessel and/or different shard. It can have destructive results when not well controlled, such as the death of Ambition. When it is controlled by someone as knowledgeable as Sazad, it can be used to create a virtual paradise.