Obeythelaw7 Him/He Posted April 10, 2025 Posted April 10, 2025 Okay, I think at this point, we know that when investiture is released, it seems to just dissipate into the spiritual realm of the cosmere. (i.e. Kalladin lashing rocks to drain himself of investiture, AonDor usage post-reod and pre-restoration, the shattering of individual shards by any force.) This is power that cannot be reinvested into a host, at least not without a perpendicularity. if my understanding of this is correct so far, and correct me if not, then I have some questions... Does the Cosmere follow some version of the laws of entropy? Meaning, more specifically, will there come a time when so much investiture is being used across the Cosmere that it becomes scarce, or we run out? Can shattered shards whose power has been dissipated into the Cosmere ever be recovered? Surely those aspects of Adonalsium didn't cease to exist, and if they did, how will that affect the Cosmere if Adonalsium were somehow remade without those aspects? (I'm thinking specifically of the Selish shards here) Has anyone here read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? if not, go give it a read, its a very short story and it is a great read. plus the rest of my question will spoil it, so I will mark it at such in case people want to go read it first. Spoiler Suppose that the humans and shards in each system somehow found a way to shatter each and every shard in the cosmere, meaning no one single shard has a vessel and they all exist in the spiritual realm. this doesn't seem to affect how humans magical powers would work, like on Sel post-restoration. so would doing this lead to Adonalsium remaking himself through the course of all the shards mingling in one place? Like entropy increasing to the maximum in the physical realm, eventually allowing for a conflux of spiritual power that starts everything over from scratch? I would love to hear any and all thoughts on this topics. Even corrections, so long as they don't start with, "No, dummy! It's like this!" ready, set, go! 1
Treamayne Posted April 10, 2025 Posted April 10, 2025 (edited) 1 hour ago, Obeythelaw7 said: This is power that cannot be reinvested into a host, at least not without a perpendicularity. Not precisely - there is an Investiture Cycle, much like the IRL Rain Cycle - Kinetic Investiture returns to the Spiritual Realm (not including the Dor) until it is used again. So, as a Rosharan Example - Light from a highstorm Invests a gem, kaladin breaths in the Gem, Kaladin creates a Lashing, the Lashing fades as the Stormlight returns to the Spiritual Realm, until a Highstorm invests a gem. . . (Note: Era 1 Atium was also an exception to the general Investiture Cycle - but that was becaue of how Preservation hid Ruin's Power. it still had a cycle, just a different cycle unique to the Pits of Hathsin). WoB: Spoiler Quote Skyler Cecil Is there an Investiture cycle on Roshar? Cycling through the crem rain and flora and fauna back into the storm, or something like that. Like the water cycle. If Investiture is finite, is it recycled back into the Cosmere when Investiture like Breath or Stormlight is expended? Otherwise, wouldn't Investiture run out? Brandon Sanderson Yes, there is such a cycle. It is renewed and changed time and time again. It gets in and out of the Spiritual Realm, often with the birth of new individuals. Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 5, 2018) Quote Argent Awakening and Surgebinding, Stormlight and Breath seem really similar in some aspects-- Brandon Sanderson Yes. Argent --except Breaths seem to stick to things better-- Brandon Sanderson They do. Argent --than Stormlight. So when you are holding the Breath it doesn't expire when you put it in something it doesn't go away. Can you tell me something about why that's happening? Brandon Sanderson Part of this is kind of inherent to the Shard and the power it's coming from. I mean the power of Endowment is just going to stick, that's part of the nature of its magic. Does that make sense? But it also kind of has to do with how the ecosystems are working. For instance the Stormlight is essential to the ecosystem of Roshar, it needs to be expended, it needs to get out and-- It's like evaporation, does that make sense? Argent Recycling? Not the recycling but the cycle of-- Brandon Sanderson Yeah, yeah like the cycle of water. And so just part of the way the nature of it works, it has to get out, it has to leak out, it has to run out. I mean it leaks even from spheres, right? Argent And when you lash things it's temporary-- Brandon Sanderson Yep. And even though Szeth says that he thought Voidbringers could hold it they can't. Like it is just not the way that it works. Argent Can they just hold it better? Brandon Sanderson They can hold it better. It's not permanent. Now there are things that can do it permanently but-- <edited for length and relevance> Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015) 1 hour ago, Obeythelaw7 said: Does the Cosmere follow some version of the laws of entropy? Meaning, more specifically, will there come a time when so much investiture is being used across the Cosmere that it becomes scarce, or we run out? Can shattered shards whose power has been dissipated into the Cosmere ever be recovered? Surely those aspects of Adonalsium didn't cease to exist, and if they did, how will that affect the Cosmere if Adonalsium were somehow remade without those aspects? (I'm thinking specifically of the Selish shards here) Has anyone here read "The Last Question" by Isaac Asimov? if not, go give it a read, its a very short story and it is a great read. plus the rest of my question will spoil it, so I will mark it at such in case people want to go read it first. Hide contents Suppose that the humans and shards in each system somehow found a way to shatter each and every shard in the cosmere, meaning no one single shard has a vessel and they all exist in the spiritual realm. this doesn't seem to affect how humans magical powers would work, like on Sel post-restoration. so would doing this lead to Adonalsium remaking himself through the course of all the shards mingling in one place? Like entropy increasing to the maximum in the physical realm, eventually allowing for a conflux of spiritual power that starts everything over from scratch? I would love to hear any and all thoughts on this topics. Even corrections, so long as they don't start with, "No, dummy! It's like this!" ready, set, go! Yes No (please see WoB) - at least not on a societal or even geologic timescale - maybe on a galactic timescale. . . That's the big question that everybody wants answers - but please keep in mind that we have no examples of a Splintered Shard without any remnants: Ambition's remnants are in the Shades (likely, not definitive) and the Evil Devotion is in the Seons (and possibly more - third empire WoB below) Dominion is in the Skaze (and possibly more- third empire WoB below) Honor is in the Spren (before and after WaT) Virtuosity is in the Yoki-hijo and Spirits of Komashi More likely the individual pieces would each start forming their own sentience or sapience (please see WoB) 1: Spoiler emailanimal From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon... chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture? Brandon: Yes. chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it? Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly. This worries me somewhat because of the following observation. Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second). Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath. Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing. This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing. I can see the following possible explanations to this: Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit). Thoughts? Brandon Sanderson Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy. Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born. uchoo786 So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak. General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015) 2: Spoiler Nimrod Rappaport In Arcanum Unbounded you mentioned that Sel is one of the biggest planets. You also mentioned that there are three empires on that planet. In Elantris 2 two will we get... You also mentioned that they are largely ignorant of each other, will we get a book in which those empires interact? Maybe in Elantris 2? Also, can you please specify on their nature and maybe some inspirations you got when writing and thinking about them? Brandon Sanderson So, sure. Sel wears its inspirations quite blatantly on its sleeve, right? It's not that obvious for instance in Stormlight that the Alethi are based off of Mongolians, because there's so much more in the mix there, that it's not quite as obvious. But in Sel, it's a little more obvious. You know, basically the idea came to me that what if the vikings had united behind a very hierarchical religion like Catholicism, and we had Catholic vikings, conquering the world. What would the world look like and that is where the entire religion came from. Actually the truth is it's like, there was this priest, right, and one group became Buddhist and the other became Catholic vikings and, you know, Buddhist Renaissance... Italians is kind of where we got there and of course, the Rose Empire the inspirations are a little bit more Eastern and Middle Eastern. For instance, the Grands are based on Babylonian influences and I'm kind of looking at a lot of Babylonian, a little bit of Syrian. But of course Shai is very very clearly based on East Asian cultures and specifically China. So, the empires and things like that... for there you might have noticed that we've got a Europe centered one, and an Asia/Eastern centered one, so you might be able to theorize where the third empire's inspirations might be or at least a list of possible candidates. ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019) 3: Spoiler Quote Questioner Can it be restored? The Splinters... Brandon Sanderson Um, Splinters, can they be restored to... So it is, that is a yes, but restoring them will not restore Honor, the Vessel of Honor, right. They would restore Honor the Shard if this were to happen, but a new Vessel would have to take it. Questioner Ok so, [Adonalsium] can be put back together? Brandon Sanderson Adonalsium? It is theoretically possible to put a Shard back into, you know, to meld Shards together. The fact that we have already seen someone meld powers, in Sazed. So yes, but the question is who or what was Adonalsium, and is putting it back together going to do anything? Or... Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016) Quote <edited for length and relevance> Questioner *audio obscured* Brandon Sanderson Yes, it would work the same way. The only magic that is location-dependent-- The ones who aren't interested in this, just hum to yourself, okay? *laughter* You don't need to know any of this stuff to enjoy the books, okay? I write them so that you could just-- each series can be read independently, and enjoyed. There is behind the scenes stuff, and if you want to dig, it goes pretty deep. So on Sel, we have AonDor. AonDor is based on the fact that the Dor, which is an amalgamation of Dominion and Devotion, has been pressed together and stuffed into the Cognitive Realm by Odium who didn't want it to gain sentience, as Investiture will do if it is left alone. It will either seek someone to be its Vessel or it will gain sentience. He pressed it in there; he pressed it together, which creates the violent reaction, because those two intents are opposed. And that is the foundation of the magic. Because it's stuck in the Cognitive Realm rather than the Spiritual Realm (the Spiritual Realm is location-independent; Cognitive Realm is location-dependent), it makes the magic on Sel only work in close proximity to what is keyed through there to the location they're keyed to. This has to do with Identity and Connection. Mostly Connection. So that means you can't do AonDor on another planet, but you can do other magics works anywhere, because they're drawing the magics specifically through either the place, or they're end-neutral, like Breath is, and you don't need any extra power. Arcanum Unbounded Chicago signing (Dec. 6, 2016) Hope that helps Edited April 10, 2025 by Treamayne SPAG 1
Obeythelaw7 Him/He Posted April 10, 2025 Author Posted April 10, 2025 13 minutes ago, Treamayne said: Not precisely - there is an Investiture Cycle, much like the IRL Rain Cycle - Kinetic Investiture returns to the Spiritual Realm (not including the Dor) until it is used again. So, as a Rosharan Example - Light from a highstorm Invests a gem, kaladin breaths in the Gem, Kaladin creates a Lashing, the Lashing fades as the Stormlight returns to the Spiritual Realm, until a Highstorm invests a gem. . . (Note: Era 1 Atium was also an exception to the general Investiture Cycle - but that was becaue of how Preservation hid Ruin's Power. it still had a cycle, just a different cycle unique to the Pits of Hathsin). WoB: Hide contents Yes No (please see WoB) - at least not on a societal or even geologic timescale - maybe on a galactic timescale. . . That's the big question that everybody wants answers - but please keep in mind that we have no examples of a Splintered Shard without any remnants: Ambition's remnants are in the Shades (likely, not definitive) and the Evil Devotion is in the Seons (and possibly more - third empire WoB below) Dominion is in the Skaze (and possibly more- third empire WoB below) Honor is in the Spren (before and after WaT) Virtuosity is in the Yoki-hijo and Spirits of Komashi More likely the individual pieces would each start forming their own sentience or sapience (please see WoB) 1: Reveal hidden contents emailanimal From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon... chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture? Brandon: Yes. chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it? Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly. This worries me somewhat because of the following observation. Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second). Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath. Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing. This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing. I can see the following possible explanations to this: Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit). Thoughts? Brandon Sanderson Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy. Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born. uchoo786 So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm? Brandon Sanderson The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak. General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015) 2: Reveal hidden contents Nimrod Rappaport In Arcanum Unbounded you mentioned that Sel is one of the biggest planets. You also mentioned that there are three empires on that planet. In Elantris 2 two will we get... You also mentioned that they are largely ignorant of each other, will we get a book in which those empires interact? Maybe in Elantris 2? Also, can you please specify on their nature and maybe some inspirations you got when writing and thinking about them? Brandon Sanderson So, sure. Sel wears its inspirations quite blatantly on its sleeve, right? It's not that obvious for instance in Stormlight that the Alethi are based off of Mongolians, because there's so much more in the mix there, that it's not quite as obvious. But in Sel, it's a little more obvious. You know, basically the idea came to me that what if the vikings had united behind a very hierarchical religion like Catholicism, and we had Catholic vikings, conquering the world. What would the world look like and that is where the entire religion came from. Actually the truth is it's like, there was this priest, right, and one group became Buddhist and the other became Catholic vikings and, you know, Buddhist Renaissance... Italians is kind of where we got there and of course, the Rose Empire the inspirations are a little bit more Eastern and Middle Eastern. For instance, the Grands are based on Babylonian influences and I'm kind of looking at a lot of Babylonian, a little bit of Syrian. But of course Shai is very very clearly based on East Asian cultures and specifically China. So, the empires and things like that... for there you might have noticed that we've got a Europe centered one, and an Asia/Eastern centered one, so you might be able to theorize where the third empire's inspirations might be or at least a list of possible candidates. ICon 2019 (Oct. 17, 2019) 3: Reveal hidden contents Hope that helps could you explain a bit about why the dor is not included? in your first paragraph? wow, that makes so much more sense, at least about the nature of rasharan and nalthian investiture. I find it interesting that he almost acts as if putting adonalsium together is a fruitless endeavor. Yes, this is very enlightening and helpful. Thank you! 1
Treamayne Posted April 10, 2025 Posted April 10, 2025 1 hour ago, Obeythelaw7 said: could you explain a bit about why the dor is not included? in your first paragraph? Because when Odium killed Aona and Skai, he severed the Shards of Dominion and Devotion from the Spiritual Realm and "stuffed" them into the Congnitive Realm - that why all Selish magic is location dependent - so their investiture cycle returns Dor to the Cognitive Realm only, not the Spiritual Realm. Spoiler James Clifford Science question! Brandon Sanderson Ohh science. Is it real science, or fake science? Adam Horne It is Brandon science. Brandon Sanderson Fake science! James Clifford With the discovery of anti-Investiture in Rhythm of War, would the correct form of anti-Investiture be usable to clear up the mess in the Sel Cognitive Realm. If so, would this completely destroy a splintered Shard? Brandon Sanderson *laughs, coughs, and is otherwise stunned* That would not be a good idea. So why would that not be a good idea? So no, this would not clear up the problem. The problem that's going on in the Cognitive Realm in Sel is that a bunch of Investiture that should be in the Spiritual Realm has been packed into the Cognitive Realm instead, through a very weird circumstance of events. If you were to introduce a bunch of anti-Investiture of the right type there, you would just generate an explosion that would be a very bad thing. Matter cannot be created or destroyed, Investiture can't be either, so it's actually changing forms. It's going from Investiture into energy! Which you know, does not leave the system. So the investiture would eventually make its way back around, you can't destroy anything in the Cosmere, just like you can't destroy anything in our universe. But you can make it change forms. And so, what's going on there is just this hope by a certain individual that what has happened there will prevent the power from becoming self-aware. It's basically Odium being like "alright I just murdered you people, I don't wanna have to come back and do it again". So he's trying to figure out a way to make this happen. As it currently stands (again, these things can change when I write future books), it was partially happenstance that he took advantage of rather than something that he was able to set up very intentionally from the beginning, but he was definitely a part. YouTube Spoiler Stream 2 (June 3, 2021) 1 hour ago, Obeythelaw7 said: wow, that makes so much more sense, at least about the nature of rasharan and nalthian investiture. I find it interesting that he almost acts as if putting adonalsium together is a fruitless endeavor. Not fruitless - just not as easy as assemling Voltron. The Shattering means more than getting the proper pieces together - restoring Adonalsium (if it is truely possible) will need something to keep it all together agin - like Navani's "emulsifier" for Lights. At least based on current data, it's not impossible, just more complex than "assemble puzzle pieces here." Hope that helps 1
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