Remotely Activated Hemalurgy, Intent Restrictions and the Sovereign

[Duxredux he/him]

We know that Hemalurgy can be activated at a distance, since thrown spikes and spike guns will work when launched with the proper Intent. We also have the case when Spook was given A-Pewter from a soldier who almost certainly did not know what he was doing when moved by Ruin who provided the Intent to both harvest and grant Hemalurgic power.

To further set the stage for my hypothesis, Hemalurgy was largely unknown during Classical Scadrial and piercings were seen as a way to communicate with divinity (which as we know would have been Ruin back then). Even back then, Feruchemy would have been largely restricted to the insular Terris. The Southern Scadrians are descendents of these Classical Scadrians, put at the South pole as a control group should TLR's genetic modifications fail. There they remained until the Catecendre where they began to freeze to death until Kelsier showed up.

Kelsier established the Firemothers and Firefathers and pulled the southerners back from the edge of extinction. He gave them the Excisors and the methodology to make Unsealed Metalminds. At some point after Kelsier left, the Malwish began experimenting and learned how to make multiple ability medallions. 

Intent and belief are powerful factors in the Cosmere. You have to know what a Unsealed Metalmind is to access it. You need to know what you are doing and have the proper Intent to utilize Hemalurgy. To cite examples from other series:

Spoiler

Szeth's belief regarding the restrictions of Shardblades artificially extended the summoning time for an Honorblade - it only worked as well as it did because he believed that was how it worked. Adolin was able to summon Maya after only 7 heartbeats when he really needed her.

Cosmere Healing capable of regrowing limbs and pieces of severed souls can be handicapped by a person's perception of themselves.

What you think works in the Cosmere often affects what actually works.

Here's my hypothesis. What would happen if someone (Kelsier) were to found a religion that stated that only priests with delegated "divine" authority from a deity (the Sovereign) could use these metal spikes called Excisors to capture the pieces of divinity in the Metalborn? Let's say that initially Kelsier uses his own eyespike as an example and spikes a Rioter and grants them F-Brass to create the first Firemother or Firefather. Then he performs some sort of showy ritual delegating power and commands a priest to spike someone as well. If Kelsier as the observer Intends for that spike to become a Hemalurgic spike, and gave the orders to the individual who knows nothing of the mechanics, would it still be Hemalurgically charged, considering the known scenarios in the starting paragraph? Once the priest succeeds in their first Hemalurgic operation would the simple belief that they were given authority be sufficient Intent to allow them to do it again? Follow up question, would the reverse be true, that someone not with delegated authority who believed in that divine authorization be entirely unable to utilize Hemalurgy so long as they believed it? Add in tenets that regulate how and for what purpose that Excisors can be used, and do you potentially have a religion and a people who have been given the power of Hemalurgy but can only use it in a strictly beneficial manner as dictated by the Sovereign?

 

We know Kelsier is a diva, and he already started one religion deifying him - but the whole purpose was to give the Skaa an alternative religion to the Steel Ministry and to rebel against TLR. When confronted by his first crew concerned with the religion he was establishing, that he was really trying to make himself wealthy, that's when he took them to see the executions and that they were flat out wrong about him. I find myself wondering if he established a second religion not to deify himself and gain power but for a carefully considered and calculated purpose. The question is how do you give a people Hemalurgy who need the power to survive and accept the need for human sacrifice without giving them the tools to destroy themselves or make another Steel Ministry? How to pull a people from the edge of extinction and to do whatever was necessary to survive? Considering Kel's conversations with Sazed about what let the old religions fight against TLR, I suspect religion was again Kelsier's solution. 

Edited March 31, 2025 by Duxredux

[Trusk'our he/him]

3 hours ago, Duxredux said:

We know that Hemalurgy can be activated at a distance, since thrown spikes and spike guns will work when launched with the proper Intent. We also have the case when Spook was given A-Pewter from a soldier who almost certainly did not know what he was doing when moved by Ruin who provided the Intent to both harvest and grant Hemalurgic power.

To further set the stage for my hypothesis, Hemalurgy was largely unknown during Classical Scadrial and piercings were seen as a way to communicate with divinity (which as we know would have been Ruin back then). Even back then, Feruchemy would have been largely restricted to the insular Terris. The Southern Scadrians are descendents of these Classical Scadrians, put at the South pole as a control group should TLR's genetic modifications fail. There they remained until the Catecendre where they began to freeze to death until Kelsier showed up.

Kelsier established the Firemothers and Firefathers and pulled the southerners back from the edge of extinction. He gave them the Excisors and the methodology to make Unsealed Metalminds. At some point after Kelsier left, the Malwish began experimenting and learned how to make multiple ability medallions. 

Intent and belief are powerful factors in the Cosmere. You have to know what a Unsealed Metalmind is to access it. You need to know what you are doing and have the proper Intent to utilize Hemalurgy. To cite examples from other series:

  Hide contents

Szeth's belief regarding the restrictions of Shardblades artificially extended the summoning time for an Honorblade - it only worked as well as it did because he believed that was how it worked. Adolin was able to summon Maya after only 7 heartbeats when he really needed her.

Cosmere Healing capable of regrowing limbs and pieces of severed souls can be handicapped by a person's perception of themselves.

What you think works in the Cosmere often affects what actually works.

Here's my hypothesis. What would happen if someone (Kelsier) were to found a religion that stated that only priests with delegated "divine" authority from a deity (the Sovereign) could use these metal spikes called Excisors to capture the pieces of divinity in the Metalborn? Let's say that initially Kelsier uses his own eyespike as an example and spikes a Rioter and grants them F-Brass to create the first Firemother or Firefather. Then he performs some sort of showy ritual delegating power and commands a priest to spike someone as well. If Kelsier as the observer Intends for that spike to become a Hemalurgic spike, and gave the orders to the individual who knows nothing of the mechanics, would it still be Hemalurgically charged, considering the known scenarios in the starting paragraph? Once the priest succeeds in their first Hemalurgic operation would the simple belief that they were given authority be sufficient Intent to allow them to do it again? Follow up question, would the reverse be true, that someone not with delegated authority who believed in that divine authorization be entirely unable to utilize Hemalurgy so long as they believed it? Add in tenets that regulate how and for what purpose that Excisors can be used, and do you potentially have a religion and a people who have been given the power of Hemalurgy but can only use it in a strictly beneficial manner as dictated by the Sovereign?

 

We know Kelsier is a diva, and he already started one religion deifying him - but the whole purpose was to give the Skaa an alternative religion to the Steel Ministry and to rebel against TLR. When confronted by his first crew concerned with the religion he was establishing, that he was really trying to make himself wealthy, that's when he took them to see the executions and that they were flat out wrong about him. I find myself wondering if he established a second religion not to deify himself and gain power but for a carefully considered and calculated purpose. The question is how do you give a people Hemalurgy who need the power to survive and accept the need for human sacrifice without giving them the tools to destroy themselves or make another Steel Ministry? How to pull a people from the edge of extinction and to do whatever was necessary to survive? Considering Kel's conversations with Sazed about what let the old religions fight against TLR, I suspect religion was again Kelsier's solution. 

Pretty cool hypothesis!

One thing I've also wondered about in regards to remote Hemalurgy- if a metal is already embedded in a body, can someone else activate it to function as a spike?

Basically, a Feruchemist has a Metalmind implant or a Hemalurgist has a spike. Those metals are Hemalurgically viable and touching blood. Can you just, will an Inquisitor to die by having the Intent of their spikes ripping off more Spiritweb?

Probably not, as I'm assuming Identity/Investiture interference will kick in, but still it makes you wonder.

In regards to your original idea Dux. . . RoW spoilers. 

Spoiler

Navani is able to create an Anti-Tone plate through Intent alone.

Perhaps if Kelsier placed an Intent in some spikes ahead of time, you might not need a ton of Intent for the people who charge the spikes, just the right Bindpoints and Metalborn. 

 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

ALLUMINUM HEMALURGY

[Trusk'our he/him]

35 minutes ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

ALLUMINUM HEMALURGY

What?

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 minute ago, Trusk'our said:

What?

You were talking about hemalurgy. Its my favorite kind.

[Trusk'our he/him]

2 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

You were talking about hemalurgy. Its my favorite kind.

It is pretty cool, isn't it?

Personally, I still think aluminum Hemalurgy is comparable to Feruchemy's nicrosil. We don't really know what it does exactly or how it would look in use, but it's probably very powerful. 

[CoderDrag0n8 He/They]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

It is pretty cool, isn't it?

Personally, I still think aluminum Hemalurgy is comparable to Feruchemy's nicrosil. We don't really know what it does exactly or how it would look in use, but it's probably very powerful. 

It's like, remove every power. If that's what a lot of people think it means, then a person with aluminum spikes and intent could just, solo every thing in existence. See Aluminum hemalurgy is actually insane

[ChickenBonanza]

11 hours ago, CoderDrag0n8 said:

It's like, remove every power.

I would like to say that the other powers on the Hemalurgy table are worded similarly. Steel says ‘steals Physical Allomantic powers,’ but steel only steals one power when stabbing a Mistborn.

Aluminum says ‘removes all powers.’ Worded in the same fashion as steel. Extrapolating from the effect of Steel Hemalurgy, I would say it is more likely that Aluminum is capable of removing all powers, but would only remove a single power when stabbing someone, depending on bindpoint.

One could ask why, then, Aluminum is not worded as Atium is, ‘steals any power’? But one could ask the same of all the other metals.

In all, using aluminum offensively is, theoretically, stupid strong. However, it requires incredible precision and foreknowledge. How does one know what bindpoints align with each different magic system? One’d have to be a genius to employ such in combat situations.

If, indeed, that is how aluminum works, Hemalurgically. We haven’t seen it on-screen.

2 hours ago, JustQuestin2004 said:

Lerasium is said to 'Steal all Abilities'. So there is precedent for a spike affecting multiple things at once.

But there's enough ambiguity that it could either way.

True. Lerasium block right next to Atium and I don’t factor it in to wording consideration, how sad.

Spray-and-pray with aluminum bullets is a little hopeful, I’d say. But yeah, plausible.

Edited April 1, 2025 by ChickenBonanza
reply

[JustQuestin2004 he/him]

6 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said:

One could ask why, then, Aluminum is not worded as Atium is, ‘steals any power’? But one could ask the same of all the other metals.

Lerasium is said to 'Steal all Abilities'. So there is precedent for a spike affecting multiple things at once.

But there's enough ambiguity that it could either way.

6 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said:

In all, using aluminum offensively is, theoretically, stupid strong. However, it requires incredible precision and foreknowledge. How does one know what bindpoints align with each different magic system? One’d have to be a genius to employ such in combat situations.

You could try to shoot for specific Bindpoints with incredible precision and accuracy. Or you could go with an automatic Spike gun loaded with Aluminum, then start spraying and praying. If you just intend to use Hemalurgy, and are hitting your target with enough bullets, then even an idiot would inevitably hit the right Bindpoint through sheer quantity.

[DoctaDajman]

On 3/31/2025 at 11:22 PM, JustQuestin2004 said:

Lerasium is said to 'Steal all Abilities'. So there is precedent for a spike affecting multiple things at once.

But there's enough ambiguity that it could either way.

You could try to shoot for specific Bindpoints with incredible precision and accuracy. Or you could go with an automatic Spike gun loaded with Aluminum, then start spraying and praying. If you just intend to use Hemalurgy, and are hitting your target with enough bullets, then even an idiot would inevitably hit the right Bindpoint through sheer quantity.

My question is would that count as having the proper intent? I can see someone using a rifle, taking aim and shooting for what they know is a bindpoint as intentionally hitting a bindpoint.  I feel like spray and pray and saying "when one of these inevitably hits a bindpoint I want it to work hemalurgically" is a weak showing of truly being intentional to be honest. 

Words of Radiance spoilers:

Spoiler

Just because Kaladin had said the words and knew what they were didnt help him when his heart wasn't truly intentional with his oaths. He had to internalize them and really actually mean them. He could say them over and over again but without actual intent it didn't matter. And actual intent requires a specific and intentional action.  

I just don't see spray and pray as intentionally trying to hit a bindpoint. It's inevitable that it hits one is a very nonchalant way of thinking that I feel would be a bit lacking in the sense of hemalurgy. 

[therunner he/him]

20 hours ago, DoctaDajman said:

My question is would that count as having the proper intent? I can see someone using a rifle, taking aim and shooting for what they know is a bindpoint as intentionally hitting a bindpoint.  I feel like spray and pray and saying "when one of these inevitably hits a bindpoint I want it to work hemalurgically" is a weak showing of truly being intentional to be honest.

At first I thought this too, but based on this WoB you might steal wrong thing with Hemalurgy if you are not careful

Spoiler

Questioner

My question was about Hemalurgy. There was a disagreement on the last Shardcast. When spiking a Mistborn to charge a Hemalurgic spike, does it matter how the Mistborn is killed or is what power is stolen based only on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

So you want to place the spike in a specific place.

Questioner

In the donor. In the recipient, not the donor.

Brandon Sanderson

In the recipient. And you want to use the specific metal and so basically if you aren't precise about how you spike, you risk taking the wrong thing within the same family. Some of those, that's not as big a deal, but for some it is kind of a big deal. And so you want to be very precise, you'll get something, but if you're not placing the spike in the right place and going into the right place, then you risk it.

Questioner

You risk stealing the wrong thing.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Now if you're going off of somebody who's not a Mistborn, you can be a little more flexible, but you still have the danger that you're not going to end up stealing the power, you're going to steal something else. So, precision is advisable, how about that?

Questioner

Yeah. Because the question was kind of specifically about, like, we know that atium spikes can kill-- can steal pretty much any power.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. You want to be super precise with your atium spike.

Questioner

So, part of the question was like, exactly, if you just killed a Mistborn, you stab a Mistborn in the heart with an atium spike, and you're not placing it immediately--

Brandon Sanderson

What do you end up with? You are rolling the dice, let's say. Not as big a roll of the dice as you might think, but you still are. You might not get what you want.

Questioner

And then when you place the spike on the recipient, if you like tore that spike out again and put it in someone else, you're not going to be able to get more than one power out of it?

Brandon Sanderson

No. No, and if you place the spike in the wrong place, then you're going to end up with interference and things like this where the spike might just not work the way you want it to. Taking a spike and putting it in the wrong place in someone is not going to make them have a different power, in other words.

Idaho Falls signing (Dec. 29, 2018)

So if you can accidentally steal some other attribute/power, it means that it is sufficient to have Intent about doing Hemalurgy on this specific person perhaps? And then any Bindpoint works?

Or if just Intent to perform Hemalurgy is enough, would it mean that if your bullet misses, but hits someone else, you spike that person?

I expect with Era 3 we will finally more about Intent and how it works with Metallic Arts, but till then fun speculation abounds.

Edited April 3, 2025 by therunner