He is claimed by another.

[RefusesToElaborate]

Dalinar Kholin is dead.

...right?

Sanderson has not walked cured death in his fiction to date. The Returned are the closest he came and they don't come back as the people they once were.

Except when Retrivangian tries to reach out and take hold of Dalinars soul, we get this lovely passage.

Quote

You cannot have him, the powers said, for he is claimed by another.

Where I come from we have a word for this. Ominous.

So. Who/what claimed him.

Here are my candidates ranked from least to most likely.

1. Endowment

Endowment has invested Nalthis, its true. However, once Retrivangian began forming all the shards watched. I believe this is what Harmony began sending people to Roshar for. I do believe the mental speed of a shard may as well "stand still" in time, therefore they can make a plan and implement it basically off the cuff. Should Endowment have chosen to Return Dalinar, need she grant him his own body?

I'll admit this theory ain't great. But it's worth noting.

2. Honour

I think a part of Honour already forgives Dalinar, and on top of that:

Quote

The power paused and looked towards Dalinar.

Go, Dalinar said. Watch. Learn.

The power accepted Taravangian at Dalinars urging. Though interestingly, a few small pieces of it split off and fled. Dalinar had not expected that.

Could it be these spit off chips of Honour are what has claimed Dalinar?

The reason this sticks out to me as possible is this: 

Quote

Part of the power within him was... concerned. Had he acted with honour towards Gavinor?

Honour is already doubting the moral weight of oaths alone. It already learned from Dalinar.

 Could the independent fragments of honour laid a claim to Dalinars soul as a means of keeping its teacher around? Doubtful but not dubious.

3. Cultivation 

[muffled Vsauce music playing in the distance]

Retribution was an inside job. That overgrown lizard planned this from day one and I dare and defy you

"Oh," I hear you say "She fled the system, so she must not have anticipated this."

My brother in Adonalsium and my sister in The God Beyond, my technicolour-specrum-in-between in Whimsy. When you conspire to set a house on fire from the inside, you get out of the house once it starts burning. That's like, the number one rule of insurance fraud. 

She is Cultivation, I don't believe any shard could potentially outplan her or have her beat on foresight. Maybe Reason, but if it's Reason as I understand it? You can Reason yourself into flawed judgements. I reasoned myself into believing in something I called the Gamblers-Fallacy Fallacy. Basically just because the odds are against you doesn't mean you're guaranteed failure, so go lose 10 grand on blackjack, you reprobate gamler, me. And I reasoned that with flawless logic. As such, I think Cultivation, an intent to do with growing things over time and watching them come to fruition, plans better than all others.

Why did she run? Time dilation, if she's outside of it she has the advantage.

4. Nohadon

He's a freaky little guy, isnt he? He seems to be more, in the Spiritual Realm than simply a... what will we call the echoes of people in the Spiritual Realm? Spiritual Shadows?

The Spiritual Shadow of Nohadon refuses to answer who or what he is, is more capable of relevant conversation as a vision character, and seems to have an affinity for understanding divinity. Curios.

5. The God Beyond and/or The Beyond itself

Boring, therefore wrong. Unfortunately most likely case.

[Atlas333]

39 minutes ago, RefusesToElaborate said:

5. The God Beyond and/or The Beyond itself

Boring, therefore wrong. Unfortunately most likely case.

You call it boring but I hope that's the case. The Beyond is the one thing shards can't control. I would find it disappointing if our favorite characters could simply be "claimed" after they died and brought back. 

Additionally, we now have the Blackthorn (which is kind of Dalinar but also not). While one could argue Brandon is setting up a Blackthorn v Dalinar fight in the future of the cosmere I find that much less exciting than an Adolin v Blackthorn or Navani v Blackthorn confrontation. 

 

However, if he wasn't taken by the god beyond then my money is on Valor. That shard is up to something on Roshar I'm sure of it. Nohadon is also a decent option.

[Leuthie]

There's a difference between Taravangian trying to grab Dalinar's soul after killing him and a Shard accepting a vessel. Taravangian had no claim on Dalinar. The powers he held had no claim on Dalinar. Cultivation had a hook in Dalinar related to his boon and curse. The God Beyond is unknowable and also a possibility. Nohadon could be more than just a Cognitive Echo, but it isn't going to claim any souls IMO. Honor didn't claim Dalinar. Honor hardly wanted to be attached to Dalinar for the time it was. Endowment isn't part of this story and her jumping in and claiming Dalinar wasn't foreshadowed in any way.

So we have Cultivation or the God Beyond. I agree that the Beyond pulling Dalinar's soul in and protecting it is posssible but boring. Cultivation is where I'm at. She used Dalinar. She knew her use of Dalinar would result in him being vulnerable, so she protected him. I also believe there were lines indicating that Dalinar was in the Beyond in the conclusion, so we'll never really find out the exact nature of that line.

Edited February 19, 2025 by Leuthie

[The Stick]

I do ultimately hope Dalinar went to the beyond. I feel like the book was trying to make it clear he really did die. If he comes back, I think it would ruin the impact of his corpse on the tower. I do think that a spiritual version of Dalinar like Nohadon would be fine though. However, of the characters who may have claimed him, my money would be on Valor or Cultivation. Cultivation is playing 5d chess, and was connected enough to him to claim him. Valor probably has stuff going on in Roshar, and Dalinar did really exemplify Valor is protecting Gavinor.

[Soccorro]

12 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

I find that much less exciting than an Adolin v Blackthorn

Honestly, that would be horrible. Adolin already has the thickest plot armour in the entire series and beating prime Blackthorn spren empowered by Odium would be the last nail in the coffin of coherent narrative. Though after peg leg vs Fused cringe I won’t be surprised 

 

12 hours ago, Atlas333 said:

or Navani v Blackthorn confrontation. 

And this is even worse. She can’t even fight. I hope Blackthorn kills her because someone needs to broke the cycle of incompetent cartoonish villains like Lezian, Abidi and Moash that can’t do anything and destroy plot convenient protagonist plot armour. Why should I worry for good guys if Odium hires only incompetent clown squad?

[Kesamijr]

I've heard theories that Nohadon is Adonalsium's Cognitive Shadow. There's clearly so much foreshadowing in WoK about Nohadon stepping down and abdicating from power, and how it's posited in WaT it seems like Nohadon is going to be Honor's cognitive shadow. It seems clear he is not, but it does feel like that's there for a very intentional reason, and I like the theories saying Nohadon is Ado's CS. 

Also I personally LOVE Potential Returned Dalinar lmao. Gets to literally fight the worst version of himself, Endowment says she "has it in hand" to Wit, potentially implying this, and with all the CS floating around there'd be really interesting tension between Dali and all the others (Kels, Sahel, potentially Vivenna and Shallan?) plus he'd be the Returned we see the most of pre-Returning, adding more tension to the whole disconnect of Pre and Post Return identities. 

[Master Silver]

I think that what Dalinar did would make the Shard of Valor take notice, perhaps make Dalinar her avatar. Battar is a traitor still I think so maybe she will be replaced.

[Ashbringer he/him]

I could see Honor partially-saving Dalinar like how it partially-saved Tanavast into the Stormfather. That'd also help explain perhaps why Retri could grab the Blackthorn.

But I'm pretty sure he's dead. Retri could have forced Dalinar to become his servant, but he was so distracted he didn't even notice Dalinar dying and slipping away.

[The Stick]

8 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

I could see Honor partially-saving Dalinar like how it partially-saved Tanavast into the Stormfather. That'd also help explain perhaps why Retri could grab the Blackthorn.

But I'm pretty sure he's dead. Retri could have forced Dalinar to become his servant, but he was so distracted he didn't even notice Dalinar dying and slipping away.

I do find this a little unreasonable, because Dalinar is the focus of the whole contest, and I believe Taravangian would have total attention on him. However, I do see your distraction theory working if this was like getting a lot of Breaths. The sudden overload of power probably sent Taravangian into a total ecstasy power-high.

[Ashbringer he/him]

19 hours ago, The Stick said:

I do find this a little unreasonable, because Dalinar is the focus of the whole contest, and I believe Taravangian would have total attention on him. However, I do see your distraction theory working if this was like getting a lot of Breaths. The sudden overload of power probably sent Taravangian into a total ecstasy power-high.

After a re-check of the section, Dalinar's soul was pretty dramatically dragged away from Retribution, so it wouldn't just be Taravangian's lack of paying attention.

Hmm. A few possibilities:

Cultivation's Bane let her take him as a failsafe, either to actually keep him or to let him pass to the Beyond peacefully. How much Cultivation foresaw (or wanted) this I doubt, but it's something to consider.

The Beyond itself claimed Dalinar, through Dalinar's own will or some other way. Technically speaking, Dalinar broke his oath to Odium to serve him, so there's no reason for him to forcibly remain in order to do so.

Another Shard interfered. Perhaps the rumors of the fourth Rosharan Shard, or perhaps Mercy decided to act. Seems like a thing Mercy could perhaps do.

[Nitpicking]

On 2/19/2025 at 11:56 PM, Soccorro said:

[Navani vs. Blackthorn spren]

And this is even worse. She can’t even fight ....

Really? You forgot her defeating three armed men back in Thaylen City so quickly? She's a freaking Bondsmith, remember? She defeated the last really good villain in the Stormlight Archive, Raboniel.

She can't swordfight that we've seen, but so what?

It would be narrative-fatal for Dalinar to remain alive. He's dead, or the SA as a story is.

[Soccorro]

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

It would be narrative-fatal for Dalinar to remain alive. He's dead, or the SA as a story is.

And where did I say that he needs to remain alive? I said that turning Blackthorn into another cringe cartoonish incompetent villain that can’t do anything is bad writing. Sorry I don’t want to read power fantasy where almighty Navani on two peg legs defeats prime Blackthorn with extra Odium powers

 

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

Really? You forgot her defeating three armed men back in Thaylen City so quickly?

Because she caught them off guard using her new device? That’s not fighting. Also, sure three literally who = Unmade Blackthorn 

 

3 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

She defeated the last really good villain in the Stormlight Archive, Raboniel.

?
 

Navani finished dying Rabiniel. She didn’t defeat her and didn’t fight her. Idk what are talking about

[Ashbringer he/him]

55 minutes ago, Soccorro said:

Navani finished dying Rabiniel. She didn’t defeat her and didn’t fight her.

Raboniel was dying in the first place because Navani stabbed her with the anti-Voidlight earlier.

[Soccorro]

2 hours ago, Ashbringer said:

Raboniel was dying in the first place because Navani stabbed her with the anti-Voidlight earlier.

Still, that wasn’t a fight, she didn’t defeat Raboniel in physical combat. Raboniel is a scientist, not that much of a fighter. Blackthorn is different type of villain, he’s nothing but fighter. Make him pathetic fighter that even Navani can beat in a fight and there’s nothing left. In ideal world, Blackthorn shouldn’t exist and I’d love it if BS changed his mind and cut this travesty from second edition of book 5. Unfortunately, Blackthorn already exists so at least make him scary and dangerous! There’s already no stakes and no sense of threat to the protagonists.

Edited February 24, 2025 by Soccorro

[Atlas333]

9 hours ago, Soccorro said:

Still, that wasn’t a fight, she didn’t defeat Raboniel in physical combat. Raboniel is a scientist, not that much of a fighter. Blackthorn is different type of villain, he’s nothing but fighter. Make him pathetic fighter that even Navani can beat in a fight and there’s nothing left.

Feel like we're missing the main point of this thread but wanted to clarify what I was imagining. While a Navani v Blackthorn fight could happen I imagined the conflict more as both of them leading opposing armies, not a literal swordfight. Of course, who knows what could happen in the future books. 

[sourpanda]

I figured the one who claimed him might be Evi The main reason being that he was succed into the Beyond instead of just out of Big T's clutches to somewhere else in the Cosmere.

I hadn't considered the possibility of Nohadon and I absolutely love this idea. In-universe amazing-king-guy who apparently has some sort of affinity with the Spiritual Realm, and we don't know whether he died? That's juicy rust. I'm imagining him still in there, just baking bread, chillin, and was able to wave airport marshalling wands and blow his whistle real loud to make sure Dalinar's passage through the Spiritual Realm to the Beyond was uninterrupted by Big T.

Dalinar's death was one of the very few we've seen so far where the character has accepted their death. He had a plan that he executed in his last waking moments as a hail mary for the Cosmere, saved Gav, he sent his goodbyes, and his dead body was discovered. The gag of the season story will be The Blackthorn being seen again, and it causing a trauma response for whoever, but then they learn it's Evil Dalinar so it's okay to kill him, even though he's leading Retri's armies, likely very effectively.

A Shard (or two) might be able to fight over a soul, but I feel like we'd see it going in a direction that isn't passing on. Dalinar didn't really have any Connection I could think of to any other Shard (aside from Culti, who if anything I could see ushering him Beyond like I said Nohadon could, but not claiming him for her own) so I think it's unlikely that Endowment, Valor, or another Shard did it. That being said, right when Big T takes up the power, it says 

Quote

As of now, the other gods' attention fixated on Taravangian. Each of those vast beings witnessed the birth of the most powerful and dangerous thing that had existed since the Shattering of Adonalsium.

which is before Dalinar actually dies, so they very well may have been watching when Dalinar passed to the Beyond, even through time-dilation.

Honour's power was part of what said to Big T "You cannot have him," so I think we can definitely rule that or the Splinters out.

So basically I think it's either Nohadon or Evi, who is part of the Beyond, but this is weird and awkward because of, ya know, Navani.

[Nitpicking]

On 2/25/2025 at 5:00 PM, sourpanda said:

Dalinar's death was one of the very few we've seen so far where the character has accepted their death.

The other one was also an antihero.

 

Rashek, the Lord Ruler.

 

Yes, I'm comparing Dalinar to the Lord Ruler.

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 2/25/2025 at 5:00 PM, sourpanda said:

I hadn't considered the possibility of Nohadon and I absolutely love this idea. In-universe amazing-king-guy who apparently has some sort of affinity with the Spiritual Realm, and we don't know whether he died? That's juicy rust. I'm imagining him still in there, just baking bread, chillin, and was able to wave airport marshalling wands and blow his whistle real loud to make sure Dalinar's passage through the Spiritual Realm to the Beyond was uninterrupted by Big T.

I am fully subscribed to the theory going around that:

1. Nohadon is either an avatar or servant/supporter of Valor

2. Valor has been hiding 'behind enemy lines' on Roshar and very subtly and secretly making an impact. This is why Valor is nowhere on Taravangian's radar and undetectable.

3. Valor is the extra shard represented by the 4th moon and other references to a 4 tone on Roshar

4. Valor's influence is referenced when Taravangian kills Rayse and he talks about feeling a surge or courage and similar things

5. Valor is the one who claimed Dalinar and protected him from Retribution, allowing him to pass peacefully into the beyond without being snatched up by big T - Nohadon (either Valor presenting herself as Nohadon or Nohadon just acting on behalf of Valor herself) gave Dalinar the nudges he needed at just the right time to get us to the final results in WaT, so Dalinar was slowly forming a bond/connection with Valor by seeking that connection and guidance. So that protection came as a benefit of following Valor's guidance for so long

6. Valor is the warm feeling that Dalinar feels, not the 'god beyond' (Brandon has repeatedly said he won't touch what is in the beyond, if anything is). That connection (initiated through study of the book Nohadon wrote under Valor's guidance) is what leads Dalinar to believe that there is something more than Honor/Almighty, that they weren't left to their own devices even though the Almighty is dead

Could all be garbage, but I think it's a sweet theory that so far seems to fit in a very fun way

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

21 hours ago, Nitpicking said:

The other one was also an antihero.

 

Rashek, the Lord Ruler.

 

Yes, I'm comparing Dalinar to the Lord Ruler.

In what way did Rashek accept his death? He fought to the end and then tried to talk Vin out of killing him.

[AquaRegia he/him]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

In what way did Rashek accept his death? He fought to the end and then tried to talk Vin out of killing him.

I assume that what @Nitpicking means is that once his physical body was dead, Rashek didn't attempt to cling to Cognitive-Shadowhood like Kelsier did.  He showed no inclination to stick around any further, no desire to continue influencing events.  He asked neither mercy nor forgiveness.  He simply accepted his time was done and went to the Beyond like a civilized person.

[Nitpicking]

@AquaRegia is correct.

[Ninth of the Night]

Also Rashek actually doesn't try to talk Vin out of killing him. Once the full realization of his failure sets in he just has some words of warning for her. Otherwise he seems to accept his fate right there on the spot.

Spoiler

The Lord Ruler cast his eyes down at the crowd, and the final realization of his failure seemed to hit him. He looked back up at the ring of people who had defeated him. 

“You don’t understand,” he wheezed. “You don’t know what I do for mankind. I was your god, even if you couldn’t see it. By killing me, you have doomed yourselves.…”

 

[OoklaApologist She/her]

On 2/19/2025 at 9:42 AM, RefusesToElaborate said:

not walked cured death in his fiction to date.

Have you read Mistborn: Secret History?

On 2/26/2025 at 8:51 PM, Nitpicking said:

The other one was also an antihero.

 

Rashek, the Lord Ruler.

 

Yes, I'm comparing Dalinar to the Lord Ruler.

Same series, Vin and Elend both accepted their deaths. So did Wayne

[CognitiveShadow he/him]

On 2/26/2025 at 9:51 PM, Nitpicking said:

The other one was also an antihero.

 

Rashek, the Lord Ruler.

Do we think Rashek was an anti-hero? I'd go more with anti-villain for him while Kelsier would get an anti-hero title.

[RefusesToElaborate]

On 3/4/2025 at 3:20 AM, KelsierApologist said:

Have you read Mistborn: Secret History?

Same series, Vin and Elend both accepted their deaths. So did Wayne

I said he hasn't cured death. Still true. Kels lost his body and his allomancy, having to find workarounds to both issues.