Theory on Vo the First Returned's purpose

[AleStaar he/him]

I was sent this WoB just two hours ago. After finishing Warbreaker, I basically had the same question as graendal. Among others.

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Graendal

A question that's been on my mind for a while. If Returned can't have children, how are Siri and Vivenna descended from one?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. One I have to RAFO. When I was writing WRBRKR, I was planning on two books.

I seeded two questions to be answered in the next book. One was the origin of the royal family..

The second was how Vasher was able to survive while hiding his divine Breath. I will answer these questions.

Eventually. (It has to do with restoring Breath and life to the child while still in the womb.).

 

I finally have a theory. It involves Vo's purpose and the Realmatic mechanics of Divine Breath. I haven't finished all Cosmere books, so I can't post in the Cosmere channel. I won't get deep into Realmatics and don't want to bog this with Cosmere general spoiler blocks. But I hope you awesome people get what I mean.

The Realmatics I want to focus on are aspects of the Divine Breath. 

• Identity - how someone views themselves. Do they view themselves as chronically ill, with missing body parts, or with scars? For example, Susebron sees himself as having no tongue. Susebron's Identity is a man with no tongue.
• Intent. Willing intent from the Returned to heal someone.
• Connection. The bonds that are facilitated by Divine Breath. Bonds to Endowment - the voice that gives Divine Breath - facilitates the Fifth Heightening. Bonds to Endowment, and to the world around them, also facilitate a Returned's ability to see into the past and future

I believe we saw major examples of deliberate Intent and Identity in Warbreaker, when Lightsong gave up his Divine Breath. He needed the Intent to willingly give up his Divine Breath, say the Command, and heal Susebron's tongue.

And in the cosmere, Identity can put a hard stop on healing. If a person is adamant they're always a person with scars or no tongue, their wounds won't heal. That viewpoint is tied onto the Identity. So why did Lightsong's Divine Breath heal Susebron's tongue, who spent all his life without it? It's because it completely bypassed the Identity limitation, healing what Susebron was adamant about not possessing.

But we did not see deliberate Connection from the Returned. Except for two grumpy old wizards, their Fifth Heightening, precognition, and retrocognition were passive abilities. But now I'm theorizing Vo deliberately manipulated Connection - bonds. Specifically the bonds between himself, his wife, and the conceived child. And he deliberately tore off a piece of his Divine Breath and gave it to his child.

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Can Vivenna change her appearance more? She can indeed. She could actually stoke that fragment of a divine Breath inside of her and start glowing like a Returned. She can’t change her physical features to look like someone else, but she can change her age, her height (within reason), and her body shape (to an extent). It takes practice.

This is in the epilogue's annotation. Vivenna, Siri, and the rest of the royal family have a fragment of Divine Breath. If they practiced and knew, they could use similar abilities to a Returned. And of course, that fragment is responsible for the Royal Locks. But why do they have it? What did Vo do so long ago?

My ultimate theory is that Vo did not die on the eighth day by eating his Divine Breath. That was the preconception. And like many preconceptions in Warbreaker, this might have been false. I believe Vo gave up his Divine Breath on the eighth day. He did so with the Intent to bond (Connect) stable life to his wife's now-impregnated womb. Without that Divine Breath, his impregnation would've either not happened or the child would've been stillborn.

In addition, he intended to sacrifice a piece of his Divine Breath that would last through the child and their descendants. And on top of all this I imagine that while Awakening was discovered 200 years later, the Breath transfer Command was known by Vo.

Furthermore my ultimate theory is that Endowment Returned Vo, gifting a lot of additional knowledge other Returned don't get, with the purpose of catalyzing the entire current state of Nalthis

• The trend of Returned all across the world
• Fve Visions of Austrism
• The Cult of the Returned
• Hanald / Hallandren's monopoly over the dye industry
• Royals or Vo descendants who are talented Awakeners - two eventually revolutionized (if not discovered Awakening), one invented an extremely dangerous weapon, and one became the student of Endowment's most important agent

[Trusk'our he/him]

42 minutes ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I was sent this WoB just two hours ago. After finishing Warbreaker, I basically had the same question as graendal. Among others.

I finally have a theory. It involves Vo's purpose and the Realmatic mechanics of Divine Breath. I haven't finished all Cosmere books, so I can't post in the Cosmere channel. I won't get deep into Realmatics and don't want to bog this with Cosmere general spoiler blocks. But I hope you awesome people get what I mean.

The Realmatics I want to focus on are aspects of the Divine Breath. 

• Identity - how someone views themselves. Do they view themselves as chronically ill, with missing body parts, or with scars? For example, Susebron sees himself as having no tongue. Susebron's Identity is a man with no tongue.
• Intent. Willing intent from the Returned to heal someone.
• Connection. The bonds that are facilitated by Divine Breath. Bonds to Endowment - the voice that gives Divine Breath - facilitates the Fifth Heightening. Bonds to Endowment, and to the world around them, also facilitate a Returned's ability to see into the past and future

I believe we saw major examples of deliberate Intent and Identity in Warbreaker, when Lightsong gave up his Divine Breath. He needed the Intent to willingly give up his Divine Breath, say the Command, and heal Susebron's tongue.

And in the cosmere, Identity can put a hard stop on healing. If a person is adamant they're always a person with scars or no tongue, their wounds won't heal. That viewpoint is tied onto the Identity. So why did Lightsong's Divine Breath heal Susebron's tongue, who spent all his life without it? It's because it completely bypassed the Identity limitation, healing what Susebron was adamant about not possessing.

But we did not see deliberate Connection from the Returned. Except for two grumpy old wizards, their Fifth Heightening, precognition, and retrocognition were passive abilities. But now I'm theorizing Vo deliberately manipulated Connection - bonds. Specifically the bonds between himself, his wife, and the conceived child. And he deliberately tore off a piece of his Divine Breath and gave it to his child.

This is in the epilogue's annotation. Vivenna, Siri, and the rest of the royal family have a fragment of Divine Breath. If they practiced and knew, they could use similar abilities to a Returned. And of course, that fragment is responsible for the Royal Locks. But why do they have it? What did Vo do so long ago?

My ultimate theory is that Vo did not die on the eighth day by eating his Divine Breath. That was the preconception. And like many preconceptions in Warbreaker, this might have been false. I believe Vo gave up his Divine Breath on the eighth day. He did so with the Intent to bond (Connect) stable life to his wife's now-impregnated womb. Without that Divine Breath, his impregnation would've either not happened or the child would've been stillborn.

In addition, he intended to sacrifice a piece of his Divine Breath that would last through the child and their descendants. And on top of all this I imagine that while Awakening was discovered 200 years later, the Breath transfer Command was known by Vo.

Furthermore my ultimate theory is that Endowment Returned Vo, gifting a lot of additional knowledge other Returned don't get, with the purpose of catalyzing the entire current state of Nalthis

• The trend of Returned all across the world
• Fve Visions of Austrism
• The Cult of the Returned
• Hanald / Hallandren's monopoly over the dye industry
• Royals or Vo descendants who are talented Awakeners - two eventually revolutionized (if not discovered Awakening), one invented an extremely dangerous weapon, and one became the student of Endowment's most important agent

An interesting theory. 

There are a couple things to note, however:

A Returned cannot heal an injury that is viewed as part of a person, no matter the Returned's Intent. SA spoilers.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/31-arcanum-unbounded-release-party/#e9623

Questioner

Given Sanderson's Laws about limitations...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

What would you say are any spiritual, cognitive, and or physical limitations to a Returned's healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

That they can do it once.

Questioner

That they can do it once, and that's it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, right? The Returned get one heal and then they die. That's a pretty big limitation. Like you have to choose really well. However, what they can heal is bounded by cosmere limitations on healing, but it is a supercharged version.

Questioner

Okay. Could you define more cosmere limitations on healing?

Brandon Sanderson

Cosmere limitations on healing can be affected by your own perception.

Questioner

Okay. Cognitive stuff.

Brandon Sanderson

Cognitive stuff. And so there's a part of that, and... But that's really-- cognitive interferes. And if your spirit is gone? Right? Cosmere healing, you know, if your spirit is passed on you just get a dead body even though you've healed it.

Questioner

So potentially Vasher, having a much greater cosmere knowledge than others could potentially have a much greater usage of that healing than regular--

Brandon Sanderson

Well the healing-- What I mean by that is yourself. You impose limits. So the person being healed can impose some limits on the healing working. It doesn't happen as often as I'm making it sound. But, you know-- why Kaladin's scars have not healed, right? So Kaladin being hit by a Returned would still not heal his scars. He's got a major hangup about those scars.

Also, a Returned cannot actually give their Breath to someone else to hold onto, just to heal them. Mistborn Era 1 spoilers.

Spoiler

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3508

drabgod

When a Returned who has lots of extra Breath gives them away without suppressing his Divine Breath, does the Divine Breath stick to the regular Breath as they are transferred to the receiver? Will the receiver find himself suddenly possessing a Divine Breath? Or does it still vanish after healing the receiver?

Brandon Sanderson

Divine Breaths don't work quite like others. However, losing one is kind of a "Last resort." You'll give away all the others first, and then, if you push you can give it away as well. It never sticks around and makes the person you choose Returned.

drabgod

Could you use it to heal Preservation's mind? (potentially with the Well)

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on what you mean by "Preservation's Mind." Do you mean Leras? During the events of Well/HoA he's WELL beyond the help of such a small bit of Investiture, as available in a single Divine Breath. With the help of the Well itself? That's more realistic, but the real reason that he was suffering from such degradation was due to persistent attacks by Ruin.

Still, I think other parts of your theory are sound.

If the child healed by the Divine Breath had the right spiritual genetics, they might be able to get their own fragmental Divine Breath that way, or perhaps grow one with the supercharged healing.

[AleStaar he/him]

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

A Returned cannot heal an injury that is viewed as part of a person, no matter the Returned's Intent.

I’m sorry, but I feel like that’s an example of a WoB that shouldn’t be taken too seriously when discussing Divine Breath. Mainly because that contradicts Susebron’s character. Throughout all his struggles, he never cared about having a tongue. He viewed himself as having no tongue and didn’t have any hangups about it. It’s not as if he viewed himself as a person with a tongue, or someone could have a tongue. Unless his Identity suddenly changed right before Lightsong healed him. Or if Siri’s involvement caused him to disregard the “part” of him that had no tongue.

When the Divine Breath is so Invested it facilitates precognition AND retrocognition… I think it’s reasonable to assume it can break some cosmere rules.

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

Also, a Returned cannot actually give their Breath to someone else to hold onto, just to heal them.

To be fair, that’s not exactly the same as my theory. That just talks about healing a person, not affecting a being conceived in the womb. 

26 minutes ago, Trusk'our said:

If the child healed by the Divine Breath had the right spiritual genetics, they might be able to get their own fragmental Divine Breath that way, or perhaps grow one with the supercharged healing.

I definitely think this would stem from modification of the child’s soul on Vo or Endowment’s part. If it doesn’t come from Vo’s Divine Breath, fragmental Divine Breath or “growing one” is basically taking unique Investiture from Endowment. 

[Treamayne]

1 hour ago, Trusk'our said:

A Returned cannot heal an injury that is viewed as part of a person, no matter the Returned's Intent.

1 hour ago, Ale the Metallic Conjurer said:

I’m sorry, but I feel like that’s an example of a WoB that shouldn’t be taken too seriously when discussing Divine Breath. Mainly because that contradicts Susebron’s character.

I feel like th emissing piece of this puzzle is that, for both Lightsong and Susebron, they were raised in a culture that teaches "Divine breath heals anything." The Divine Breath does not need to bypass Identity, because that Identity includes the "knowledge" that Divine Breath will heal the Tongue (and more - WoB):

Spoiler

Edited for SA Spoilers and length

Kurkistan

So these Ideals in the Spiritual Realm: Divine Breath, does that heal by accessing some Ideal of Human Health: so a guy who had never had a tongue and doesn't know how to speak all the sudden has a tongue and can speak?

Brandon Sanderson

You are... *LONG pause* You are, um, on the right track.

Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

So healing his tongue via Divine Breath also granted him how to use that tongue to speak the language he already knew (by hearing, and Siri taught him to read).

 

2 hours ago, Trusk'our said:

If the child healed by the Divine Breath had the right spiritual genetics, they might be able to get their own fragmental Divine Breath that way, or perhaps grow one with the supercharged healing.

Unlikely, because a Divine Breath is a Splinter of Endowment. It is not sDNA based at all - because a Non-Nalthain wihtout any breath can still be chosen by Endowment to Return.

Spoiler

OrangeJedi

Could a non-native be able to be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is possible.

JoyBlu

So someone who was born without a Breath and came to Nalthis could possibly be Returned?

Brandon Sanderson

Possibly could be Returned. Yes. That's not very likely.

JoyBlu

So they could get a Divine Breath, even though never...

Brandon Sanderson

They could be given a Divine Breath, yes.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)

 

[Duxredux he/him]

I agree that being raised in a culture that believes a Divine Breath heals anything probably would let the Returned heal any issue for a local. I mean, Susebron's father reportedly healed a city, though we know this was misinformation. Enabling Susebron to speak is far more than simply aligning the physical with the Spiritual template, we know that Cosmere healing can 

Spoiler

restore or modify the lost pieces of the soul for a believing individual. 

That said, Brandon certainly gave himself enough wiggle room in that last WoB @Treamayne, to make the circumstances a non-Nalthian needs to Return complicated and unlikely. Possibly they need to be carrying Breath, since a Drab can't return. Actually, found a WoB that outright states a non-native can't Return, so I suspect they need Breaths sufficiently Connecting them to Nalthis and maybe more.

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Zas

Can a Drab Return?

Brandon Sanderson

A Drab can not Return as the Returned are known, and there are things about the Drab that are not completely understood. But a Drab without a Breath, it’s going to be very hard. Drabs do not Return. Good question, by the way. No one has ever asked me that before.

Alloy of Law release party (Nov. 7, 2011)

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NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If a native of Sel or another Shardworld traveled to Nalthis, would they be a drab?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they would not be a drab. But, no one would be able to take their Breath.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person died on Nalthis, could they Return?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

No, they cannot Return.

NutiketAiel (paraphrased)

If such a person received breath, could they use BioChroma?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes

A Memory of Light Dayton Signing (Jan. 10, 2013)

 

As for the OP and how a fragment of a Divine Breath ended up in a human lineage, I found an interesting WoB I wonder if it's relevant. See bolded:

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Gordon

The paintings (I think there were at least two, right?) that remind Lightsong of his dreams and the Manywar etc. Is the artist someone we know? If not, will we eventually meet him/her in a later book? Does the artist hope to affect Lightsong this way, or is it just some guy giving abstract art to his God?

Jared

Is the artist that painted those paintings Hoid?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not make the paintings. The goal of those paintings—and this is spoilery, by the way—the paintings are actually what the text implies that they are. They are abstract paintings which Lightsong, having a touch of the divine, is able to see and read into things that aren't necessarily there.

Beyond that, art is a magical thing in the world of WARBREAKER. When an artist creates a work of art, part of the artist's soul ends up in the artwork. Someone who has many Breaths and who's Returned like Lightsong has the inherent ability to see into the art and perceive that. So Lightsong can interpret correctly an abstract piece, based on what the artist is trying to convey, in a way that a normal person couldn't.

I was not trying to make the artists anyone specifically important. In the case of those paintings, they are wonderful artists—I think they are two separate artists, if I'm thinking of the two paintings that you're indicating. As Lightsong has a splinter of divine nature inside him, he is able to interpret the paintings—to foresee, using them, and to see into the soul of the person who made them.

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Jan. 18, 2010)

What is different about artists in the world of Warbreaker? They have Breath, often the Third Heightening for offerings to the Returned. We also learn from Vasher helping Nanrovah's daughter modify her own memory that partial Breath utilization is possible even if the majority believe otherwise. If artists can pare off a sliver of their soul, why not the Reutrned?

Moving on, it is worth noting that Treledees did not intend for Susebron to die as he passed on Peacegiver's Treasure and furthermore they hoped that Susebron and Siri would have their own child who would become the next God King (see WoB below). Susebron had been told that they would have a child and believed it. Considering Susebron's priests knew the mechanics of mental Commands, it wouldn't surprise me if this was related and that it's simply a Command. That said, the mechanism between Vo's children and the God Kings may be different.

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Brandon Sanderson

Chapter Forty-Four

Siri and Susebron Talk about How the Next God King is Created

Siri's impulse here—that the next God King might not really be the son of the current one—is a good one. She's actually right, though there are a lot of other things in this conversation she's wrong about.

It is possible for a Returned to have a child. Vo, the First Returned, did it. The God King isn't special in that he can do it; any of the Returned could, but it requires some special knowledge that—I'm afraid—I'll have to keep secret until the sequel. Suffice it to say that the priests know how it is done.

The problem is, they aren't always able to get this to work. Sometimes, they have to do what Siri guessed—replace the God King with an infant Returned. Infant Returns happen very infrequently. It's more rare than an adult Returning, so there is something sound to the Hallandren reasoning that you have to do something heroic in order to Return. (That's not true, but it is more sound a doctrine than Siri thinks it is.)

The God King's priests take an infant Returning as a sign that it's time to change God Kings. At that point, they choose a wife for the God King and hope that she'll be able to conceive the next God King. They'd much, much rather that the God King be the literal child of the previous God King. (Susebron wasn't, however. And his mother was indeed his mother, a poor merchant's wife from far northern Hallandren.)

Now, an infant has indeed Returned. The priests see this as a major vindication of their faith, as they made the wedding contract with Idris twenty years ago and now, just when the marriage was to happen, an infant Returned. The problem is, now they've got to push Siri to get pregnant, because they're on a deadline. They don't want to have to replace the God King with this infant; they'd rather use his own child. Hence the push for her to have a child.

But if she doesn't, they'll go with plan B. Note that there's not, in fact, any danger to her either way, no matter what Bluefingers says. She and Susebron, following the change in power, would have been taken to one of the isles in the middle of the Inner Sea and kept in a lavish lifestyle as long as they lived.

Warbreaker Annotations (March 1, 2011)

 

Actually... TSM spoilers:

Spoiler

Considering the Threnodites of Canticle have spoken Commands before marital intimacy, it really could be just a simple Command spoken or mentally given by one of the Tenth Heightening.

 

Edited February 15, 2025 by Duxredux

[Treamayne]

10 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Possibly they need to be carrying Breath, since a Drab can't return. Actually, found a WoB that outright states a non-native can't Return, so I suspect they need Breaths sufficiently Connecting them to Nalthis and maybe more.

I saw that WoB, but being 2013 made it 6 years older than the one I posted, so I went with the more recent WoB. They do not seem mutually exclusive since, like you said, the WoB I posted does not mention if they would have to have breath. However, sicne it is Endowment Choosing, I would guess having or not having Breath is up to her since, as that WoB points out, they are not Drab. Clarified in this WoB:

Spoiler

Questioner

In the last panel we talked a lot about people from different planets using magic systems on other planets, one of the things I've been thinking about, we've been thinking about, talking about Breath, and people being born with Breath, is that something specific to Nalthis or do, technically, other people on other planets have a Breath as well?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question and that is a Nalthian thing. Now, everyone in the cosmere to an extent has Investiture, the Nalthian Breath is part what everyone has and then a little extra, plus the ability to share it around. So a person who gives up their Breath on Nalthis is actually going below what a normal person has. But a normal person on Nalthis has more than somebody-- So if you were for instance to pick a world like Sixth of the Dusk, where there's not a Shard in residence, and you compared them to a Nalthian, Nalthian has an Investiture advantage over them. When they've given up their Breath, they have an Investiture disadvantage.

Bystander

So we're not Drabs?

Brandon Sanderson

So we're not Drabs. That's exactly it. We're not Drabs.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

So, for Innate Investiture: Native Nalthian (with breath) > Non Nalthian > Native Nalthian (drab)

19 minutes ago, Duxredux said:

Moving on, it is worth noting that Treledees did not intend for Susebron to die as he passed on Peacegiver's Treasure and furthermore they hoped that Susebron and Siri would have their own child who would become the next God King (see WoB below). Susebron had been told that they would have a child and believed it. Considering Susebron's priests knew the mechanics of mental Commands, it wouldn't surprise me if this was related and that it's simply a Command. That said, the mechanism between Vo's children and the God Kings may be different.

I suspect that Vo's mechanism is different, because Treledees expect's the child of Siri and Susebron to be Stillborn and Returned (with their own Divine Breath) while the Royal Family are normal Nalthians, with both a native Breath and a fragment of Divine Breath (tied to the Identity of being in the line of Succession for the Royal Family - they lose, or do not develop, the Royal Locks if they will not Inherit).