Trusk'our he/him Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 (edited) Based on what we've seen, I think that Shardpool Perpendicularities have a similar Connection to a Shard as an Avatar. BAM and Ishar were both able to absorb a significant portion of Investiture, but for some reason needed Odium's Perpendicularity to do so. It seems they couldn't just absorb Voidlight (or Stormlight, in Ishar's case) over time, but actually needed the WoC itself. Furthermore, the WoA was used as a conduit for Rashek and Vin to temporarily Ascend and essentially become Avatars of Preservation. We see that in TLM that Autonomy has the odd ability to create Perpendicularities wherever she wants, though some special circumstances must be met. She also happens to have the ability to easily Invest new Avatars, even on other worlds, which I think helps point to the two abilities being linked. I think that all of these individuals used more or less the same mechanism- a unique, direct Connection to a Shard that is naturally present in a Shardpool (or, in Telsin's case, probably just handed that Connection by Autonomy. Though, I suppose she could have fought her way to a Pool of Autonomy's, proving herself above other Set members). These Perpendicularities function as a place in the Physical or Cognitive Realms you can "touch" a Shard without actually holding a seed of its Invested Art or being aligned with its Intent. On a parallel note, I think that there are three ways you could absorb a Perpendicularity to become an Avatar of a Shard (not a Splinter. An actual proxy for a Vessel to a limited degree). You could either be in favor of the power, like BAM yoinking it despite Rayse's wishes, you could use Connection tricks, probably as Ishar pulled as a primal Surgebinder (I don't think he had his Blade back then) or maybe a device like the Ire orb, or the power itself can be tweaked by the current Vessel like the WoA. In any case, I think having a pre-established Connection to the power is helpful. Ishar got his original Surgebinding from Odium, BAM was literally made up of Odium's Investiture, Vin was chosen by Preservation and was Mistborn, etc. If you aren't careful though, I think the power could reject you like Preservation nearly rejected Kelsier or Honor rejected Tanavast, because unlike a Hemalurgic spike, Breath, or most MoI it's an actual part of the Shard, not just a part of a world's Invested Art. I'm really happy this mechanism was explored more, as the WoA felt very much like a one time phenomenon to me- cool, but of little continual relevance. Now, however, every Shardpool has tons of latent potential. Edited February 13, 2025 by Trusk'our 4
ChickenBonanza Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 (edited) A part of what makes these usages of the Well of Ascension and the Well of Control unique to me is the noninterference of their related Shards. Tacit approval or lack of ability to intervene lets one use the liquid Investiture without issue. An aware Shard could most likely prevent the grand usages of power we have seen. Quote On a parallel note, I think that there are three ways you could absorb a Perpendicularity to become an Avatar of a Shard (not a Splinter. An actual proxy for a Vessel to a limited degree). This notion, and the one above about Vin and Rashek being analogous to Avatars of Preservation bug me. The powers and effects wielded by both all examples were not permanent… wells they could then access. They were temporary. One of Ba-Ado’s issues was that she was too small a god to continually successfully replicate a Shard’s Investing of a world and its people. (That’s what she effectively did, by my understanding, by forging Spiritual Connections between herself and Roshar.) Ishar did a similar thing between himself and the other Heralds, as well as Shinovar. Given Odium’s favor of Ba-Ado over Rayse, there could be an argument that her usage of the Well of Control and the potential for her to usurp Odium grants her a special status or designation beyond Sliver. Beyond that notion, I cannot recall significant indication that she continually drew on Odium’s power rather than her own, as an Avatar would. Unless, of course, you mean that Ascension by Perpendicularity makes one an Avatar only for as long as that Ascensions lasts, leaving them ‘mere’ Slivers afterwards. In that case, I would concur. Edited February 13, 2025 by ChickenBonanza money talks 2
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 4 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: One of Ba-Ado’s issues was that she was too small a god to continually successfully replicate a Shard’s Investing of a world and its people. I don't intend to pick on your specifically, but I do want to address this. I have seen this sentiment repeated several times since WaT has come out, and it baffles my why people keep saying it. Ulim said this of BAM, and the only merit to it (now that we know what happened to her) seems to be that she was able to be trapped in a gem prison, where as I doubt a Shard ever could be trapped in the same way (accept maybe by another Shard or Shards). Though, even that was because Tanavast was an even bigger jerk than he'd been up until that point, to betray her out of fear/spite/whatever nonsense that was. BAM was a better "god" than Odium ever had been in form, function, and leadership. I can see why the power prefers her to Rayse or Taravangian. Mostly because those two set a bar so low, it's barely off of the ground.
ChickenBonanza Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 10 minutes ago, JohnnyKaizen said: Ulim said this of BAM, and the only merit to it (now that we know what happened to her) seems to be that she was able to be trapped in a gem prison, where as I doubt a Shard ever could be trapped in the same way (accept maybe by another Shard or Shards). Perhaps my original sentiment can better be expressed like “Ba-Ado-Mishram is not a Shard or a subsidiary of one. She is finite, and that proved her undoing by allowing her to be trapped in a gemstone.” Not meant to dunk on her skills in the domain of deity at all. She would make a better Odium than Rayse almost certainly. Tanavast made the objectively wrong choice in siding against her. Like, even if she falls to Odium’s Intent eventually, that’s still a century or so to teach her control and all that jazz. 1
JohnnyKaizen he/him Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 22 minutes ago, ChickenBonanza said: Perhaps my original sentiment can better be expressed like “Ba-Ado-Mishram is not a Shard or a subsidiary of one. She is finite, and that proved her undoing by allowing her to be trapped in a gemstone.” Not meant to dunk on her skills in the domain of deity at all. She would make a better Odium than Rayse almost certainly. Tanavast made the objectively wrong choice in siding against her. Like, even if she falls to Odium’s Intent eventually, that’s still a century or so to teach her control and all that jazz. Cool, thanks for the clarification. I appreciate it.
Trusk'our he/him Posted February 13, 2025 Author Posted February 13, 2025 6 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: A part of what makes these usages of the Well of Ascension and the Well of Control unique to me is the noninterference of their related Shards. Tacit approval or lack of ability to intervene lets one use the liquid Investiture without issue. An aware Shard could most likely prevent the grand usages of power we have seen. True. Autonomy was even able to revoke Telsin's power as her Avatar, though only did so once she fell out of favor. I think it's still totally possible to become an Avatar via Shardpool, but probably only if the Shard itself allows it (as Mishram won over Rayse) or if it's set in motion by the Vessel themselves (as with Rashek and Vin). Quote This notion, and the one above about Vin and Rashek being analogous to Avatars of Preservation bug me. The powers and effects wielded by both all examples were not permanent… wells they could then access. They were temporary. One of Ba-Ado’s issues was that she was too small a god to continually successfully replicate a Shard’s Investing of a world and its people. (That’s what she effectively did, by my understanding, by forging Spiritual Connections between herself and Roshar.) Ishar did a similar thing between himself and the other Heralds, as well as Shinovar. Given Odium’s favor of Ba-Ado over Rayse, there could be an argument that her usage of the Well of Control and the potential for her to usurp Odium grants her a special status or designation beyond Sliver. Beyond that notion, I cannot recall significant indication that she continually drew on Odium’s power rather than her own, as an Avatar would. I like to think of the WoA as a quick-burning method of using the Investiture, immediately converting it to a kinetic state that either disperses or is used up quickly, though in a grand display of power. Kind of like Allomancy metabolizing a metal to grant a temporary effect. Conversly, BAM and Ishar's usage was more like absorbing a Bio-Chromatic Breath. They got much less flash than something like Allomancy gets, but it sticks around giving smaller perks until utilized. It's also worth mentioning that the WoA was used to affect Scadrial, which is uniquely linked to the power of Preservation (and Ruin), something that Odium didn't have on Roshar despite being Invested there. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/100-rbooks-ama-2015/#e3614 Wolfbeckett Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it? Brandon Sanderson Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course. Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.) So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used. 6 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: Unless, of course, you mean that Ascension by Perpendicularity makes one an Avatar only for as long as that Ascensions lasts, leaving them ‘mere’ Slivers afterwards. In that case, I would concur. No, I did mean that I think someone could absorb a Shardpool to more or less permanently Ascend to become an Avatar. "Ascend" in this case meaning you have a Connection to the relevant Shard that lets you access loads of Investiture on demand and can act on its behalf, at least in some ways, not necessarily that you dissolve into pure Invested and can move planets around and such. Something like Telsin or Ishar, basically. Actually, I wonder if Rashek had been more focused on consolidating power initially upon drawing in the Well (or if had more Cosmere knowledge than a pack man) if he could have overrode the temporary aspect of it. He did make himself into an absurdly powerful Mistborn, which is a permanent Investment, so dedicating enough of the Well to that task might just do the trick. Anyway, thinking on this general topic, I wonder if this is part of where Era 3 is going to go. Sazed favors Preservation too much, causing Ruin to seek an outlet. Kelsier, armed with knowledge of BAM and Ishar's shenanigans tries to exploit this, seeking Harmony's Shardpool to absorb the power and become an Avatar of Ruin/Discord. Given his ties to Ruin, his resources, and Sazed's instability over Ruin, I think he could do it. Plus, knowing him, he'd totally jump at the opportunity.
ChickenBonanza Posted February 13, 2025 Posted February 13, 2025 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trusk'our said: No, I did mean that I think someone could absorb a Shardpool to more or less permanently Ascend to become an Avatar. "Ascend" in this case meaning you have a Connection to the relevant Shard that lets you access loads of Investiture on demand and can act on its behalf, at least in some ways, not necessarily that you dissolve into pure Invested and can move planets around and such. Something like Telsin or Ishar, basically. Part of me wishes to reject that definition of Ascension. Maybe unjustly. To me, the context in which Ascend is used does not imply a sustaining Connection, but to have the power in your hands and permeated through your soul. (Perhaps simply holding enough power to stretch your Spiritweb and be classified as a Sliver would be enough to called Ascension. Hoid considers Vin’s holding of the Well without using it to not be a full Ascension, but she still exhibits some potential effects of Sliver status afterward. Does he consider Rashek the same or different from Vin? Digress.) Telsin did have a Connection to Autonomy which granted her power, but Telsin herself implies that she has not yet Ascended as an Avatar. Or, at least, not a full one. She was on the path, but her failings caused Autonomy to cut her off. Quote “Because you could never just admit it. Well, today, I’m doing what has to be done. You’re going to watch. You’re going to weep. And I’m going to Ascend.” (The Lost Metal, Chapter 66.) Theoretically, Mishram and Ishar could have done/were using this method. Creating a Connection to facilitate the drawing upon and usage of Odium’s Investiture, but I am of the opinion that one could not call this an Avatar. At least not fully. (Using the power to augment their abilities permanently in some manner is very likely, I think, as you noted was possible.) To me, an Avatar is a portion of a Shard given… autonomy and a distinct personality. It is inexorably a part of a Shard. For a Shard to decide to eliminate an Avatar, the method by which they would do so would be more than the revoking of the ‘Avatar Connection.’ Such a Connection, if an Avatar is fully formed and part of a Shard, probably would not exist. As one part of the body is not ‘Connected’ to another, but ‘physically’ a part of the whole. However, Avatars that were individual mortals beforehand, like Telsin, could behave very differently. My initial thoughts would be something analogous to becoming the Vessel of a Shard. The Avatar exists as a distinct part, with a personality/Intent weaker than an Avatar formed entirely from Investiture, and requires a Vessel for it to act ‘independently.’ In Telsin’s case, Autonomy is Investing her purposefully with a Connection that allows for the transference of Investiture, but not giving her full access to the what would be the source of her power. The Set call her ‘Avatar’ and ‘Trell’ because she is 99% of the way there and expresses ‘all’ of a true Avatar’s abilities, but she’s not. Edited February 13, 2025 by ChickenBonanza (added parenthesis bits)
Trusk'our he/him Posted February 14, 2025 Author Posted February 14, 2025 (edited) 2 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: Telsin did have a Connection to Autonomy which granted her power, but Telsin herself implies that she has not yet Ascended as an Avatar. Or, at least, not a full one. She was on the path, but her failings caused Autonomy to cut her off. Ah, that's a good point. I had forgotten she hadn't quite Ascended yet, though she was close. 2 hours ago, ChickenBonanza said: Part of me wishes to reject that definition of Ascension. Maybe unjustly. To me, the context in which Ascend is used does not imply a sustaining Connection, but to have the power in your hands and permeated through your soul. (Perhaps simply holding enough power to stretch your Spiritweb and be classified as a Sliver would be enough to called Ascension. Hoid considers Vin’s holding of the Well without using it to not be a full Ascension, but she still exhibits some potential effects of Sliver status afterward. Does he consider Rashek the same or different from Vin? Digress.) . . . Theoretically, Mishram and Ishar could have done/were using this method. Creating a Connection to facilitate the drawing upon and usage of Odium’s Investiture, but I am of the opinion that one could not call this an Avatar. At least not fully. (Using the power to augment their abilities permanently in some manner is very likely, I think, as you noted was possible.) To me, an Avatar is a portion of a Shard given… autonomy and a distinct personality. It is inexorably a part of a Shard. For a Shard to decide to eliminate an Avatar, the method by which they would do so would be more than the revoking of the ‘Avatar Connection.’ Such a Connection, if an Avatar is fully formed and part of a Shard, probably would not exist. As one part of the body is not ‘Connected’ to another, but ‘physically’ a part of the whole. However, Avatars that were individual mortals beforehand, like Telsin, could behave very differently. My initial thoughts would be something analogous to becoming the Vessel of a Shard. The Avatar exists as a distinct part, with a personality/Intent weaker than an Avatar formed entirely from Investiture, and requires a Vessel for it to act ‘independently.’ In Telsin’s case, Autonomy is Investing her purposefully with a Connection that allows for the transference of Investiture, but not giving her full access to the what would be the source of her power. The Set call her ‘Avatar’ and ‘Trell’ because she is 99% of the way there and expresses ‘all’ of a true Avatar’s abilities, but she’s not. I went diving into some WoBs to refresh my mind on the topic (I probably should've done so before making the original post, but, eh). Avatars are fundamentally considered a part of the Shard still, and unlike Splinters are not fully autonomous. They don't have the same mind, but I think share a strong Connection and Identity with the core of the power. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/467-youtube-spoiler-stream-2/#e14744 Alex M What's the difference between avatar and Splinter? Brandon Sanderson These are all very weird terms that I'm just using. *mistakenly answering for Sliver* A Sliver is a person who has held the power of a Shard, and then let go of it. A briefly held time, holding the infinite power of a Shard, but no longer does. So what does that do? That changes your soul, and leaves markers on it. It's a real physiological thing. An avatar is... a Shard manifesting a semi-autonomous piece of themselves that is still connected to who they are. An avatar, for instance, of Autonomy - depending on how Autonomy creates that avatar - might know, might not know, but they are still an aspect, they are still part of Autonomy. And when you get down to it a part of them knows that, and it's almost a god roleplaying, but in a way that only a Shard, or a lowercase-g god in the Cosmere, can do. Brandon Sanderson *realizes that he answered for Sliver earlier, and clarifies* A Splinter is a piece of a Shard that is fully autonomous, where an avatar is not. So something that is Splintered does not consider itself - and would not be considered by the definitions - an actual piece of it [the Shard], and has free will. So once it has free will, and/or could develop free will (because some of the Splinters haven't gotten there yet), but is fully cut off from the direct control and self-identity of the Shard, then it is called a Splinter. They can form of their own accord and do not require a Vessel's permission (as I suspect happened for both BAM and Ishar). Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/398-prague-signing/#e13220 Oversleep Okay now I have one about Shard avatars, like Autonomy's. Is it possible for one to form without the Shard's Vessel directly making it, so independent... Brandon Sanderson Yes, it is. They would be aware of it, however. They couldn't not be aware of it, but it could arise without their direct and conscious decision to do so. Oversleep And the one on First of the Sun, is it by Autonomy's direct... Brandon Sanderson Yes, that is directly created. It is also worth noting that the "standard" Avatar is essentially considered a Vessel, but on a much smaller scale with more finite pool of Investiture to access. Spoiler https://wob.coppermind.net/events/402-starsight-release-party/#e13339 Pod The combination of a Shard and its Vessel leads to sapient mind with access to a virtually infinite pool of Investiture. Are avatars the product of a similar combination of a mind and a pool of Investiture, only on a smaller scale, with less power? Brandon Sanderson I would say that is an accurate representation of what an avatar is. It’s not the only way, but it is an accurate... some avatars are that. I would say that’s the standard. With these in mind, I think an Avatar is unique from a Spren, Radiant, or other Invested being in that they are considered a part of a Shard in the same way a Vessel is, however that works (I still think Connection is a big part but Identity might be an even larger factor), but are ultimately allowed a smaller reserve of Investiture to access- the Vessel is still head honcho and can wrestle control from a disobedient Avatar if they feel like it. Except, of course, when the Shard itself holds preference for the Avatar. So I guess not just anyone with the knowledge and resources can dip in a Shardpool to become an Avatar, but they could take steps to accomplish it of their own volition, and if they impress the current Vessel or Shard enough they can potentially get away with it. Edited February 14, 2025 by Trusk'our
ChickenBonanza Posted February 14, 2025 Posted February 14, 2025 57 minutes ago, Trusk'our said: With these in mind, I think an Avatar is unique from a Spren, Radiant, or other Invested being in that they are considered a part of a Shard in the same way a Vessel is, however that works (I still think Connection is a big part but Identity might be an even larger factor), but are ultimately allowed a smaller reserve of Investiture to access- the Vessel is still head honcho and can wrestle control from a disobedient Avatar if they feel like it. Except, of course, when the Shard itself holds preference for the Avatar. A good synthesis, I think. There is a struggle, in my mind, of how Connection should be discussed in relation to ‘external’ Connections versus ‘internal’ Connections. This makes me predisposed to scrutinize the usage of the term more closely than I perhaps should. Like, a Spiritweb is segments of Investiture (in Spiritual DNA form) bound together such that an individual emerges. Connections are a big part of that, the core self so closely bound together that everything else is separate by comparison. For a Tin Misting, the Tin-Burning section of their Spiritweb is very closely aligned with the Sensory Organ part of their Spiritweb (that’s just an educated guess, but as an example, pick anything that fits). Should this be called a Connection? Just Connection? Or is it superfluous, as it’s already a part of their Spiritweb, nothing else to say about it? So, for a Shard and an Avatar, how closely are they Connected? What’s the nature of it? Is it analogous to Preservation and all Allomancers? A man to his friend? Or Tin-Burning to Sensory Organ? Perhaps an Avatar is that closely Connected, practically inseparable, but Identity forms a distinct barrier anyways. That’s all of my thoughts on that, I think. Danke.
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